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Mrs Ski vs Howard Cohen / CL Finance

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Hi guys,

 

Apologies for starting a new thread, my wife did start one on Friday regarding this but has asked me to do the letters and stuff as she is not confident with it so thought it appropriate to start a new one.

 

On 3rd December my wife received a claim form from Northampton County Court which is for a debt of £1,124.24 owed to CL Finance.

 

Also on the same day a letter arrived from Howard Cohen & Co stating that they were representing CL Finance in the matter who had taken ownership of the debt from Santander cards.

 

My initial response to this was one of anger towards Mrs Ski as I felt that this was most likely her own fault, but, having read a lot of the posts on this site I see that actually these people are low life, bottom feeding **** of the lowest possible order. I now think that she should fight it as they have not (as seems normal) provided a default notice, a notice of assignment has not been received from Santander cards and there is not copy of the credit agreement.

 

Based upon what I have read from other (much more knowledgeable) people on this site she has acknowledged service of the claim form online and intends to defend the whole claim. I have also drafted a CPR 31.14 letter based on those posted on this site but was hoping that one of you geniuses out there could have a scan over it and tell me if I have missed anything?

 

Below are copies of the claim form, notice as assignment from Cohen's and a draft of the CPR 31.14 I have done.

 

All comments gratefully received!

 

claimformanonymised.jpg

noticeofassignmentanonymised-1.jpg

 

 

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY

 

CPR 31.14 request

 

On 3rd December 2009 I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the Northampton County Court.

 

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest your entire claim.

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of each of the following mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

 

 

  • The agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

 

 

  • Notice of assignment from the original debt holder.

 

 

  • The default notice.

 

Your client should ensure compliance with its CPR 31 duties and ensure that the documents I have requested are copied to and received by me within seven days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

 

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

 

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than fourteen days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.

 

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

 

Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

 

I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully

Please help us to give them a right royal f*****g?action=view&current=noticeofassignmentanonymised.jpg Edited by ski1382

CAG - Power to the People

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was the court claim the first you knew about cl finance involvement?

 

if so they are well out of line and an official complaint should be made to the OFt and also to the solictiors ombudsman about coward hohen


PGH7447

 

 

Getting There Slowly

---------

 

Advice is given freely but is in no way meant to be taken as Gospel:-)

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also cohen will not respond to the cpr he never does, so ack the claim on line and defend it all, then get your defence together, look in the legal forum for threads on defeating this ******


PGH7447

 

 

Getting There Slowly

---------

 

Advice is given freely but is in no way meant to be taken as Gospel:-)

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was the court claim the first you knew about cl finance involvement?

 

if so they are well out of line and an official complaint should be made to the OFt and also to the solictiors ombudsman about coward hohen

 

Is there a legal issue here, in sending notification of court action together with a notice of assignment? I ask because this is a favoured tactic of Mr Cohen.

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Thanks a lot for your prompt replies guys!

 

was the court claim the first you knew about cl finance involvement?

 

if so they are well out of line and an official complaint should be made to the OFt and also to the solictiors ombudsman about coward hohen

 

As can be seen from the two pictures, CL Finance 'purchased' the debt from Santander cards on the 25th November and the claim form is dated 30th. As far as I am aware, CL have not been involved in this account previously (although she has had other dealings with CL and HC with smaller debts which I subsequently paid off).

 

Is this a new tactic then? To send them within days of each other (ultimately arriving through the post box the same morning) and not to send a default at all?

 

Head your cpr letter,

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY.

 

Consider it done!

 

also cohen will not respond to the cpr he never does, so ack the claim on line and defend it all, then get your defence together, look in the legal forum for threads on defeating this ******

 

Thanks, that is something I have noticed is a common feature in other posts. It is always good to know what to expect, or indeed what to not expect!


CAG - Power to the People

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Can anyone point me in the direction of a defense template to send to the courts? Obviously I do not expect a positive reply from Cohen's in order for me make a strong case but could do with putting something in. I have seen reference several times to 'embarrassed' defenses but cannot find a sample of one for love nor money now!


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hiya mr ski

 

glad you have come to cag and you can help with this for your wife

 

i m looking at one of my threads for a copy of a embarrased defense so will paste up for you now give me 5 mins though, still learning lol

 

***********************

Defence

 

1. I xxxxxxxxx of xxxxxxxxxxxxx am the defendant in this action and make the following statement as my defence to the claim made by xxxxxxxxxxxx

 

2. The Defendant is embarrassed in pleading to the Particulars of Claim as it stands at present, inter alia: -

 

3. The Claimants' particulars of claims disclose no legal cause of action and they are embarrassing to the defendant as the claimant's statement of case is insufficiently particularised and does not comply or even attempt to comply with CPR part 16. In this regard I wish to draw the courts attention to the following matters;

 

a) The Particulars of Claim are vague and insufficient and do not disclose an adequate statement of facts relating to or proceeding the alleged cause of action. No particulars are offered in relation to the nature of the written agreement referred to, the method the claimant calculated any outstanding sums due, or any other matters necessary to substantiate the Claimant's claim.

 

b) A copy of the purported written agreement that the Claimant cites in the Particulars of Claim, and which appears to form the basis upon which these proceedings have been brought, has not been served attached to the claim form.

 

c) A copy of any evidence of both the scope and nature of any default, and proof of any amount outstanding on the alleged accounts, has not been served attached to the claim form.

 

4. On receipt of the claim form the Defendant sent a request for a copy of the agreement which forms the basis of this claim. At the time of filing this defence , the Defendant has received no response to the CPR31.14.

 

5. The Claimant claims interest pursuant to section 69 of the County Courts Act, 1984 which the Claimant should surely know they are not entitled to by virtue of the County Courts (Interest on Judgment Debts) Order, 1991 (SI 1991 No. 1184 (L. 12)) in particular section 2(3)(a), which clearly prohibits such an award:

 

· The general rule

 

2(3) Interest shall not be payable under this Order where the relevant judgment - (a) is given in proceedings to recover money due under an agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974;

 

6. Consequently, I deny all allegations on the Particulars of Claim and put the Claimant to strict proof thereof

 

7. I respectfully request the Court’s permission to submit an amended defence should the Claimant file a fully particularised Particulars of Claim

 

***************************************

 

 

you can then amend it to suit your circumstances - however, now i only sent this virtually within a few days before the due date of when the acknowledgment was due - as i had to give the solicitor time to get back to me which in the end he didnt within my time frame and thus i did this defense online

 

also mr ski i would suggest only my past experience, that you actually delete the amounts from the claim form in your post number 1 - as it could give away who your wife is - the visitors do come along to view these threads wink wink

 

anyway the embarassed defense came courtesy of a site member citizenb who has helped me and is still with other cag members

 

am subbed to this thread so will look and ensure you are being helped keep positive

 

laters angel x

Edited by angel_1

Im happy to help with support and my own thoughts, but if I offer any thoughts to your problems please take it as from my life experience only and not of any legal standing. Always take further advice from the legal experts in your final action.:)

 

my new motto is,,,",Taking back control of your life and home - such peace is priceless"

 

This is all due to truecall device , have a serious peek at this you will be thankful like I am x laters angel :D

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Thanks Angel - advice noted and acted upon!


CAG - Power to the People

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mr and mrs ski

 

you are very welcome, a lesson i learnt very early on here on cag, had left quite a lot of my info on one of my very first scans even address etc

 

so i try and help and spot stuff for others when i view posts

 

but i can further say is to keep reading around the forum, this is very much a self help forum and we are a friendly bunch but of course we all get stuck at times and have to shout out, but you will get the help too, so dont worry with asking any questions you have

 

take care and keep positive laters angel x


Im happy to help with support and my own thoughts, but if I offer any thoughts to your problems please take it as from my life experience only and not of any legal standing. Always take further advice from the legal experts in your final action.:)

 

my new motto is,,,",Taking back control of your life and home - such peace is priceless"

 

This is all due to truecall device , have a serious peek at this you will be thankful like I am x laters angel :D

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Have noticed a lot of people advising that letters should not be signed as these "people" are not above stealing a signature in order to create documents. Considering that this is in my wife's maiden name, surely if she signs letters in her current name and they are stupid enough to lift it and use it they would be nailed?


CAG - Power to the People

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Hello ski.

 

Just a quick note.

Send off the CPR request to HC and acknowledge the claim.

Then spend the time while you wait for their reply doing some research as well.

Just keep an eye on your dates and do not be late submitting stuff to the courts.

 

Regards


-

PLEASE NOTE - I am not a legal expert, my comments are based on information learnt or

obtained and from my own experiences.

-

Case 1 - C L Finance - Court Case 'Stayed' :-). Stay Lifted - N149 AQ Received & Filed. Case Struck Out :grin:

-

Case 2 - C L Finance - Defence Filed. N150 AQ Received & Filed. Case 'Settled by Consent' :)

-

Case 3 - EOS Solutions - No Agreement - Account Closed ~£3500. :grin:

-

Advice & opinions offered freely but informally, without prejudice & without liability.

Use your own judgment and seek advice from a qualified and insured professional if you have any doubts.

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was the court claim the first you knew about cl finance involvement?

 

if so they are well out of line and an official complaint should be made to the OFt and also to the solictiors ombudsman about coward hohen

 

How do we go about complaining about Cowen's? This sounds like something we definitely would enjoy!


CAG - Power to the People

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as far as I am aware, the new "owner" of the debt should first make contact to try and come to a satisfactory resolution not issue court proceeding as the first step.

 

I would defo report them to the OFT for this


PGH7447

 

 

Getting There Slowly

---------

 

Advice is given freely but is in no way meant to be taken as Gospel:-)

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It would really help if you could give us some details of what the debt may be for. Was it a GE credit card, or other storecard provided through GE? Do you know when it was taken out? When was it last used, and when was the last payment made? Have you received a default notice of any kind? Have you ever sent a CCA or subject access request to the card provider? You can still do this.

 

Any info you can give will help in formulating your defence - while the embarrassed defence will almost certainly be necessary (because Cohen's never provide requested info), there may be other significant issues you can raise. Especially about clause 7 - we usually find it doesn't exist, or they cannot supply the T&Cs which refer to it (in which case thy are stuffed as it forms part of their PoC).

 

I also note the PoC is incomplete - I wonder if that invalidates part of the claim?


“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

If a Cagger helps you, click their star. Better still, make a donation however small, so that CAG can continue to help others.

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I see this is another Santander based issue.

Might be worth looking at this point in detail as they didnt buy the GE Money stuff until Jan 2009.

Assuming of course this is a GE Money originated account.


My bite is worse than my bark

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Thanks for your input DonkeyB.

 

It would really help if you could give us some details of what the debt may be for. Was it a GE credit card, or other storecard provided through GE? Do you know when it was taken out? When was it last used, and when was the last payment made? Have you received a default notice of any kind? Have you ever sent a CCA or subject access request to the card provider? You can still do this.

 

It was a Monsoon store card provided by GE. As far as I am aware it was taken out in 2003 and last used in 2005. Last payment most likely in September this year. No default notice has been received. No, we havenot SAR'd them.

 

Any info you can give will help in formulating your defence - while the embarrassed defence will almost certainly be necessary (because Cohen's never provide requested info), there may be other significant issues you can raise. Especially about clause 7 - we usually find it doesn't exist, or they cannot supply the T&Cs which refer to it (in which case thy are stuffed as it forms part of their PoC).

 

I also note the PoC is incomplete - I wonder if that invalidates part of the claim?

 

What is missing from the PoC? I find it staggering how inept this company seem to be. Would have expected them to be pretty slick at this by now.


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I would recommend a cpr 18 request as well as a 31.14, this lot are known for their 'sliminess' and with that you give them no excuse to refuse any documents

 

I do not think it will sit well with the court issuing a claim 5 days after the alleged assignment, it is after all supposed to be a last measure of potential enforcement

 

get ready for a lot of messing about with HC sneaky, esp. over assignment and defaults and the agreement. They know as well as we do that their letter does not constitute any form of assignment to anyone

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I would recommend a cpr 18 request as well as a 31.14, this lot are known for their 'sliminess' and with that you give them no excuse to refuse any documents

 

I assumed that a 31.14 and an 18 were one in the same. Does anyone have a sample CPR 18?


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Sorry, just realised you deleted a bit so the PoC probably is complete.

 

There's a number of issues with this. First of all, I'm not sure that the notice of assignment is valid when originating from Cohen. It should be under the hand of the assignor or assignee, not from a third party.

 

As hungrybear says, you have several options, all of which I'd recommend.

 

First, the CPR18 and 31 requests to Cohen. Send recorded delivery. You will, I can almost guarantee, get a letter back saying they don't have to provide anything (which is incorrect). What they must incontrovertibly provide are the elements listed in the PoC - the default notice, the agreement and the terms and conditions of that agreement. You might want to make SPECIFIC reference to these items within your CPR requests. I can again almost guarantee that any T&Cs they produce wont have the relevant clause 7.

 

The next option is the send a subject access request to Monsoon (check for an address on the last statement you have - you could also send it to Santander as they would be obliged to keep records). Again, you need to request specific items within the general letter - notably a copy of the alleged default notice, a copy of the CCA, and copies of statements for the life of the account (which will show whether any unfair charges were added, and there are bound to be plenty). This will cost £10.

 

You'll almost certainly have to file an embarrassed defence, but remember that around 90%+ of claims filed via Northampton like this go undefended!

 

Cohen have never learned to deal with people who fight back.

 

Once again, I think a concerted effort by Caggers to pool resources for a 'class' complaint against these jokers is required. For a company like Santander to effectively be party to and sanctioning this kind of behaviour is worthy of attention, by the OFT, the SRA and especially the media.


“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

If a Cagger helps you, click their star. Better still, make a donation however small, so that CAG can continue to help others.

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I have already sent the CPR 31.14 this morning (see post 1 for a transcript) via recorded delivery. Will send a CPR 18 as soon as I can find a sample of one.

 

There's a number of issues with this. First of all, I'm not sure that the notice of assignment is valid when originating from Cohen. It should be under the hand of the assignor or assignee, not from a third party.

 

I hadn't even considered that Cohen's were a third party unitl you mentioned that. I was certain that she should have received notification from Santander of termination of her account and transfer to another agent. I took the letter from Cohen's to be the equivalent of a letter from the new debt holder which, clearly, it isn't. Thanks for pointing that out! :D

 

Also, with reference to sending a SAR to Santander, do you know of any examples floating around of these? I sent several a few years ago to various banks in order to reclaim charges? Will one of those (suitably edited for address etc..) suffice?


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Link for the site templates:

 

The Consumer Forums - Debt collectors

 

In the meantime, the fact that they failed to issue a letter before action makes it highly unlikely that any court would ever award them costs. An LBA is also an accepted step in the CPR/litigation process, so a complaint to the SRA about Cohen wouldn't go amiss.


“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

If a Cagger helps you, click their star. Better still, make a donation however small, so that CAG can continue to help others.

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Will look into making a complaint, will probably need some help of you guys in how to word it though.

 

Thanks for the link!


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well spotted on the howard cohen slip up on the letter


PGH7447

 

 

Getting There Slowly

---------

 

Advice is given freely but is in no way meant to be taken as Gospel:-)

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Hi all,

 

Time is moving on quickly and not surprisingly, we have not heard a dicky bird from Cohen's. The defence has to be in by 2nd January, so how long do we leave it before filing an embarrassed defence? Obviously with the Christmas / new year break I suspect it would be prudent to have it in sooner rather than later, but am open to advice!

 

Thanks a lot


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