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PCN for stopping at a bus stop

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I recently got a PCN for 'parking' at a bus stop, and was wondering if for the below there were any grounds to appeal.

 

The car was not parked as it had momentarily stopped so that my boyfriend could pick me up from an evening class. I would have used public transport only I had been approached by a strange man the week before which creeped me out. Unfortunately all of the parking bays were taken so he stopped for a moment to let me in. I know about not parking at a bus stop, but surely this was not parking and it did not have a red line around it.

 

In addition, the fine said that it was becasue of parking at a restricted bus stop, not sure how you tell it is restricted. This was not marked. I have gone back to the sight at the same time of night and taken photos of the area.

 

Also there was no sign or indication that there was a person there taking photos or that there was in fact a camera (I still don't know which one). I thought that you had to be made aware - hence the yellow boxes, yellow marked and road signs. Yet I saw nothing to indicate my photo was being taken.

 

Any way to appeal this? I would like not to give up my evening class but would not feel safe getting the bus on my own.:mad:

 

Many Thanks

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It is a PCN 47 issued by Wandsworth Council, unfortunately I will not be able to do this will Monday. It looks like a standard form with my car details included

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I don't think for one second you got a PCN for stopping. You would certainly get for waiting in a bus stop unless you were driving a bus - quite rightly! Bus stops are for busses, not car drivers who find it a momentary convenience for themselves whilst being blissfully unaware that the incident has been caught on CCTV.

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Just to confirm that it was less than 30 sec to let me in the car was the length of time we were 'parked' at the stop and there was NO other place to pull in. No buses were around in fact apart from the other cars parked there were no other cars. Please can someboday clarify what is stopping, waiting and parking?

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Many bus stops are classified as clearways which do indeed mean "no stopping", ie there is not a boarding and alighting exemption as there is with "no waiting" restrictions.

 

They do, however, need to be signed as such. The normal way that this is done is with a broad yellow line by the kerb and a clearway sign on the bus stop.


********************************************

Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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If you pulled into a bus stop, became stationary and a passenger got in or out, then you had to wait for them to do so. Maybe 2 seconds, maybe 20 minutes but in any event waiting did occur - hence the ticket.

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If you pulled into a bus stop, became stationary and a passenger got in or out, then you had to wait for them to do so. Maybe 2 seconds, maybe 20 minutes but in any event waiting did occur - hence the ticket.

 

Whatever! OP has not got a PCN for a waiting contravention but a stopping contravention.


********************************************

Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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To avoid any more misunderstandings....

 

SIGNIFICANCE OF BUS STOP AND BUS STAND CLEARWAY MARKINGS

Interpretation of Part I of Schedule

1. For the purposes of this Part of this Schedule -

 

 

    (a) "clearway" means an area of carriageway bounded by the continuous and broken straight yellow lines comprised in the road marking in diagram 1025.1, 1025.3 or 1025.4 and "bus stop clearway" means a clearway on which the words "BUS STOP" are marked; and
     
    (b) a vehicle shall be taken to have stopped within a clearway if -
     

      (i) any point in the clearway is below the vehicle or its load (if any); and
       
      (ii) the vehicle is stationary.

Prohibition conveyed by road markings

2. The road markings in diagrams 1025.1, 1025.3 and 1025.4 shall each convey the prohibition that, subject to the exceptions specified in paragraphs 3 and 4, no person driving a vehicle shall cause it to stop within the clearway -

 

    (a) at any time, if the sign shown in diagram 974 or 975 placed in conjunction with the markings is varied so as to omit the reference to times of day; or
     
    (b) in any other case, during the period specified on that sign.
     

Exceptions in favour of buses

3. Nothing in paragraph 2 applies to the driver of a bus being used in the provision of a local service who causes the bus to stop within the clearway for so long as may be necessary -

 

    (a) to maintain the published timetable for the service (provided, in the case of a bus stop clearway, the bus is not stopped within the clearway for a period exceeding two minutes);
     
    (b) to enable passengers to board or alight from the bus; or
     
    © to enable the crew of the bus to be changed.
     

Other exceptions

4. - (1) Nothing in paragraph 2 applies in relation to -

 

    (a) a vehicle being used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes;
     
    (b) anything done with the permission or at the direction of -
     
      (i) a constable in uniform;
       
      (ii) a traffic warden; or
       
      (iii) where the clearway is in a special parking area designated under Part II of the Road Traffic Act 1991 or Schedule 3 to that Act, a parking attendant appointed under section 63A of the 1984 Act[41];
       

    © a vehicle which is prevented from proceeding by circumstances beyond the driver's control or which has to be stopped in order to avoid injury or damage to persons or property;

     

    (d) a taxi which is stationary only for so long as may be reasonably necessary for a passenger to board or alight and to load or unload any luggage of the passenger;

     

    (e) a marked vehicle which, whilst used by a universal service provider in the course of the provision of a universal postal service, is stationary only for so long as may be reasonably necessary for postal packets to be collected;

     

    (f) a vehicle driven by a person whilst being trained to drive a bus operating local services who, as part of his training, stops the vehicle within a clearway for no longer than necessary to simulate the stopping of a bus at a bus stop for the purpose of picking up and setting down passengers;

     

    (g) a vehicle which is stationary in order that it may be used for one or more of the purposes specified in paragraph 5 and which cannot be used for such a purpose without stopping in the clearway.

     

     

(2) In sub-paragraph (1)(e) the expressions "universal service provider", "provision of a universal postal service" and "postal packet" shall bear the same meanings as in the Postal Services Act 2000[42].

 

Permitted purposes

5. The purposes referred to in paragraph 4(g) are -

 

    (a) any operation involving building, demolition or excavation;
     
    (b) the removal of any obstruction to traffic;
     
    © the maintenance, improvement or reconstruction of a road;
     
    (d) constructing, improving, maintaining or cleaning any street furniture including bus stop infrastructure; or
     
    (e) the laying, erection, alteration, repair or cleaning of any sewer or of any main, pipe or apparatus for the supply of gas, water or electricity, or of any telecommunications apparatus kept installed for the purposes of a telecommunications code system or of any other telecommunications apparatus lawfully kept installed in any position.
     

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Personally speaking I have always felt that the contravention description fails to describe the contravention correctly. The contravention is described as "stopped in a restricted bus stop/stand".

 

However, as G&M says the contravention is contained within Schedule 19 Part 1 of the TSRGD 2002.

 

The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002

 

If you look at Part 1 (2) this quite clearly prohibits stopping within a clearway.

 

 

Prohibition conveyed by road markings

2. The road markings in diagrams 1025.1, 1025.3 and 1025.4 shall each convey the prohibition that, subject to the exceptions specified in paragraphs 3 and 4, no person driving a vehicle shall cause it to stop within the clearway -

 

    (a) at any time, if the sign shown in diagram 974 or 975 placed in conjunction with the markings is varied so as to omit the reference to times of day; or
     
    (b) in any other case, during the period specified on that sign.

So evidently there is no reference made to stopping in a restricted bus stop/stand. The contravention according to the law is stopping in a clearway and not a restricted bus stop or stand.

 

The TSRGD 2002 provides no definition as to what is a restricted bus stop/stand and if we turn to the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 no definition is provided there either. As no definition is provided it is not clear what is meant by "restricted". When a road is restricted such as by a double or single yellow line then it is still permitted to stop for boarding and alighting. This invites confusion.

 

If this was my PCN I would appeal on the grounds that the contravention did not occur and argue that Scedule 19 Part 1 of the TSRGD 2002 only prohibits stopping in clearways and makes no reference to a prohibition of stopping in a restricted bus stop/stand and as the TSRGD 2002 and RTRA 1984 do not define what "restricted" means in relation to a bus stop/stand it is not appropriate to describe the prohibition of stopping in a clearway in such a manner.

 

Admittedly, as far as I know, this argument has not been tried before. I doubt any council will accept it but it would be interesting to see what an adjudicator makes of it.

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If this was my PCN I would appeal on the grounds that the contravention did not occur and argue that Scedule 19 Part 1 of the TSRGD 2002 only prohibits stopping in clearways and makes no reference to a prohibition of stopping in a restricted bus stop/stand and as the TSRGD 2002 and RTRA 1984 do not define what "restricted" means in relation to a bus stop/stand it is not appropriate to describe the prohibition of stopping in a clearway in such a manner.

 

Admittedly, as far as I know, this argument has not been tried before. I doubt any council will accept it but it would be interesting to see what an adjudicator makes of it.

 

I think you are grasping at straws to say the least this section clearly states 'bus stop' clearway not just a clearway and the word restricted is plain english.

 

 

PART I

 

SIGNIFICANCE OF BUS STOP AND BUS STAND CLEARWAY MARKINGS

Interpretation of Part I of Schedule

1. For the purposes of this Part of this Schedule -

 

 

    (a) "clearway" means an area of carriageway bounded by the continuous and broken straight yellow lines comprised in the road marking in diagram 1025.1, 1025.3 or 1025.4 and "bus stop clearway" means a clearway on which the words "BUS STOP" are marked; and
     
    (b) a vehicle shall be taken to have stopped within a clearway if -
     
      (i) any point in the clearway is below the vehicle or its load (if any); and
       
      (ii) the vehicle is stationary.




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I know what Schedule 19 says. I'm not grasping at straws as I'm not making an appeal. I'm simply stating that it is my view that the contravention description does not correctly reflect what the law actually says since the contravention description does not use the word "clearway". It's open for discussion and your view is welcome as are others.

 

From what you highlight I do not see anywhere that defines a bus stand. So how come the contravention description includes a bus stand?

 

It is worth noting that a clearway does not have to be a "Bus Stop Clearway" as defined. It can simply be an area of carriageway marked by diagram 1025.1, 1025.3 and 1025.4 without the legend "Bus Stop" marked within it. So highlighting "Bus Stop Clearway" proves nothing as it is not the word bus stop that matters but the word clearway in relation to the contravention as described by Part 1 (2).

 

Obviously the word "restricted" has a plain English translation but it does not always follow that the exact dictionary definition applies to a word when it is applied to law. I did look at the dictionary definition but "restricted" can imply various meanings and it is not necessarily a contravention to stop where something is restricted such as in a restricted street.

 

The fact remains that the TSRGD prohibits stopping in a clearway and there is no reason why the contravention description could not simply and accurately say "stopped within a clearway".

 

I'm not saying my opinion will be accepted by an adjudicator, I simply like to probe the legislation and throw out ideas for discussion.

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Whatever! OP has not got a PCN for a waiting contravention but a stopping contravention.

 

I see this forum has turned into one with impatient and rude contributors. There is no need for that attitude, unles you are 17. Should I show you some respec innit?

 

I am frankly too old and too tired to bother with this anymore.

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I know what Schedule 19 says. I'm not grasping at straws as I'm not making an appeal. I'm simply stating that it is my view that the contravention description does not correctly reflect what the law actually says since the contravention description does not use the word "clearway". It's open for discussion and your view is welcome as are others.

 

From what you highlight I do not see anywhere that defines a bus stand. So how come the contravention description includes a bus stand?

 

It is worth noting that a clearway does not have to be a "Bus Stop Clearway" as defined. It can simply be an area of carriageway marked by diagram 1025.1, 1025.3 and 1025.4 without the legend "Bus Stop" marked within it. So highlighting "Bus Stop Clearway" proves nothing as it is not the word bus stop that matters but the word clearway in relation to the contravention as described by Part 1 (2).

 

Obviously the word "restricted" has a plain English translation but it does not always follow that the exact dictionary definition applies to a word when it is applied to law. I did look at the dictionary definition but "restricted" can imply various meanings and it is not necessarily a contravention to stop where something is restricted such as in a restricted street.

 

The fact remains that the TSRGD prohibits stopping in a clearway and there is no reason why the contravention description could not simply and accurately say "stopped within a clearway".

 

I'm not saying my opinion will be accepted by an adjudicator, I simply like to probe the legislation and throw out ideas for discussion.

 

1025.1 etc can only be used as a Bus Stop or varied to Bus Stand so there is no other clearway covered by this section of the TSRGD.

Regulation 29 states...

 

Road markings shown in diagrams 1025.1, 1025.3, 1025.4, 1043 and 1044: bus stop and bus stand clearways and box junctions

29. - (1) The road markings shown in diagrams 1025.1, 1025.3 and 1025.4 shall convey the prohibition specified in Part I of Schedule 19.

 

'Stopped within a clearway' would not be a description of the contravention as the markings are not for a clearway a 'clearway' has no road markings and has the same restriction as a red route. You are correct the PCN does not define 'restricted' but neither does it define 'bus' or 'stopped' or 'on'. Since 2006 the only restricted Bus stop is a clearway other bus stop variations are no longer permitted so arguing you did not know what the restriction was is not a valid excuse in my view.

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1025.1 etc can only be used as a Bus Stop or varied to Bus Stand so there is no other clearway covered by this section of the TSRGD.

Regulation 29 states...

 

Road markings shown in diagrams 1025.1, 1025.3, 1025.4, 1043 and 1044: bus stop and bus stand clearways and box junctions

29. - (1) The road markings shown in diagrams 1025.1, 1025.3 and 1025.4 shall convey the prohibition specified in Part I of Schedule 19.

 

'Stopped within a clearway' would not be a description of the contravention as the markings are not for a clearway a 'clearway' has no road markings and has the same restriction as a red route. You are correct the PCN does not define 'restricted' but neither does it define 'bus' or 'stopped' or 'on'. Since 2006 the only restricted Bus stop is a clearway other bus stop variations are no longer permitted so arguing you did not know what the restriction was is not a valid excuse in my view.

 

I'm not convinced.

 

1(a) clearly tells us a diagram to 1025.1, 1025.3 and 1025.4 is a clearway.

 

(a) "clearway" means an area of carriageway bounded by the continuous and broken straight yellow lines comprised in the road marking in diagram 1025.1, 1025.3 or 1025.4 and "bus stop clearway" means a clearway on which the words "BUS STOP" are marked

 

and paragraph 2 clearly advises what the contravention is and it clearly says that it is the stopping within a clearway. There is no mention of a restricted bus stop or stand.

 

2. The road markings in diagrams 1025.1, 1025.3 and 1025.4 shall each convey the prohibition that, subject to the exceptions specified in paragraphs 3 and 4, no person driving a vehicle shall cause it to stop within the clearway

 

I never said the PCN does not define "restricted", I said the TSRGD 2002 and RTRA 1984 do not.

 

Once again we can agree to disagree. Even learned High Court judges disagree on the interpretation of a point of law so no reason why we lesser mortals cannot also.

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Just to confirm that it was less than 30 sec to let me in the car was the length of time we were 'parked' at the stop and there was NO other place to pull in. No buses were around in fact apart from the other cars parked there were no other cars. Please can someboday clarify what is stopping, waiting and parking?

 

This is simple (or should be!).

 

Did the bus stop in question have a broad yellow line aginst the kerb side of the stop and was a small yellow sign marked with a clearway symbol and had 'except buses' mounted on a post within the area of the bus stop?

 

If the answer is 'yes' then an offence has been commited by simply stopping no matter how long (or short) you were stationary. The fact that 'no buses were around' is totally irrelevant.

 

If the answer is 'No' then you may have grounds to appeal.

 

It may help if you can give us the exact location so we may be able to take a look on Google.


Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

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I'm not convinced.

 

1(a) clearly tells us a diagram to 1025.1, 1025.3 and 1025.4 is a clearway.

 

(a) "clearway" means an area of carriageway bounded by the continuous and broken straight yellow lines comprised in the road marking in diagram 1025.1, 1025.3 or 1025.4 and "bus stop clearway" means a clearway on which the words "BUS STOP" are marked

 

and paragraph 2 clearly advises what the contravention is and it clearly says that it is the stopping within a clearway. There is no mention of a restricted bus stop or stand.

 

2. The road markings in diagrams 1025.1, 1025.3 and 1025.4 shall each convey the prohibition that, subject to the exceptions specified in paragraphs 3 and 4, no person driving a vehicle shall cause it to stop within the clearway

 

I never said the PCN does not define "restricted", I said the TSRGD 2002 and RTRA 1984 do not.

 

Once again we can agree to disagree. Even learned High Court judges disagree on the interpretation of a point of law so no reason why we lesser mortals cannot also.

 

SIGNIFICANCE OF BUS STOP AND BUS STAND CLEARWAY MARKINGS

Interpretation of Part I of Schedule

1. For the purposes of this Part of this Schedule -

 

 

  • (a) "clearway" means an area of carriageway bounded by the continuous and broken straight yellow lines comprised in the road marking in diagram 1025.1, 1025.3 or 1025.4 and "bus stop clearway" means a clearway on which the words "BUS STOP" are marked; and

You have to read the whole document not just cherry pick bits, yes it does call it a clearway but for the purpose of this section relating to bus stops and stands but it is not a definition of a clearway in relation to the entire TSRGD. If you read the entire TSRGD it shows the signs and road markings for bus stops/stands and explains the meaning of them including the restriction. Regulation 29 clearly states that the bus stop signage in the TSRGD is restricted as per the wording of the quoted section.

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I see this forum has turned into one with impatient and rude contributors. There is no need for that attitude, unles you are 17. Should I show you some respec innit?

 

I am frankly too old and too tired to bother with this anymore.

 

Sorry, it was not my intention to be rude. My intention was to help the OP. I couldn't see how talking about a waiting contravention would help the OP. If the OP appealed and talked about waiting they would have no chance of success when that is not the contravention the PCN was issued for, it was a stopping contravention contrary to what you have asserted. That is why I felt it was important to contradict you.

 

IMHO, with what we know, the OP's best chance of success is likely to be a sign and line defect.


********************************************

Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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Hello starrsa,

 

I've just come across the thread you started in 2009 about the penalty that was imposed on you for briefly stopping at a bus stop in Wandsworth. The same thing has just happened to me. I stopped for probably no more than a minute to look at a map, as I hadn't visited the area for several years and the road layout had changed which necessitated a change to the route with which I had been familiar. I would therefore be interested to know which bus stop you were caught at and whether it might be a defacto money spinner for the council! The one I was caught out at was on the southbound side of Nightingale Lane, close to Clapham South underground station. As it happens, I see from Google Streetview that there is nowhere to pull in near the station to pick people up. Is that reasonable? I think not.

 

By and large the points raised on the thread were informative and it would seem that the council was within its legal right to impose a penalty. Whether it is reasonable is another matter. There wasn't much traffic around as it was the day after Boxing Day and, like you, I checked in my mirror to see if there was a bus coming up behind, which there wasn't of course.

 

The extent of CCTV monitoring now in the UK worries me, especially when it seems to be being increasingly used to catch people out making minor infringmements in our now crowded urban streets rather than just monitoring criminality. The former communist countries would have loved to have had such technology.

 

In conclusion I am going to appeal but if I am unsucessful, which I suspect I will be, I will then persue it in the magistrates court as I feel very strongly that this is a totally unreasonable action by the council.

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Hello starrsa,

 

I've just come across the thread you started in 2009 about the penalty that was imposed on you for briefly stopping at a bus stop in Wandsworth. The same thing has just happened to me. I stopped for probably no more than a minute to look at a map, as I hadn't visited the area for several years and the road layout had changed which necessitated a change to the route with which I had been familiar. I would therefore be interested to know which bus stop you were caught at and whether it might be a defacto money spinner for the council! The one I was caught out at was on the southbound side of Nightingale Lane, close to Clapham South underground station. As it happens, I see from Google Streetview that there is nowhere to pull in near the station to pick people up. Is that reasonable? I think not.

 

By and large the points raised on the thread were informative and it would seem that the council was within its legal right to impose a penalty. Whether it is reasonable is another matter. There wasn't much traffic around as it was the day after Boxing Day and, like you, I checked in my mirror to see if there was a bus coming up behind, which there wasn't of course.

 

The extent of CCTV monitoring now in the UK worries me, especially when it seems to be being increasingly used to catch people out making minor infringmements in our now crowded urban streets rather than just monitoring criminality. The former communist countries would have loved to have had such technology.

 

In conclusion I am going to appeal but if I am unsucessful, which I suspect I will be, I will then persue it in the magistrates court as I feel very strongly that this is a totally unreasonable action by the council.

 

Firstly, you've resuscitated a 8 year old thread, where you'd be better starting your own thread.

Next, if you note " As it happens, I see from Google Streetview that there is nowhere to pull in near the station to pick people up", surely that is an argument for protecting the bus stop as there is very limited availability of suitable space. So, was the bus stop correctly signed as a bus stop / clearway?.

 

By "I am going to appeal but if I am unsucessful, which I suspect I will be, I will then persue it in the magistrates court" : how do you intend to do that, then?. Refuse to pay? How do you intend to get it to the Magistrates?.

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Thread moved to the Local Authority parking forum. This thread predates when the parking forums were split.

 

HB


Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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As you can see by the argument from years ago certain bus stops and bus stands, esp in London are designated in a way that even stopping there to let someone out when the traffic is stationary is enough to get you a PCN. Some bays it is an offence to even pull into without actually stopping so I cant see that you have much of an appeal, just what they call mitigtion, which is used to lessen the penaly applied. Being a fixed penalty there is no discretion so mitigation does you no good.

An appeal would be considerd by TfL and the you can take it to an independent adjudicator. This costs nothing but TBH unless you can find a flaw with the paint job designating the bus stop/stand and the Traffic Order used to create it you are stiffed. You can ask TfL for a copy of the TO and take it form there if you can find fault with that.

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