Warmfront/Eaga - Problems

[snappylincs]

Oh dear what a shambles.

 

I've read many bad things about Eaga / Warmfront

 

I've had them round, and we qualify for the grant... however....

 

Assessor came round, sat down and went through some paperwork, He discussed what was/could be done and I mentioned the Open Coal Fire that we have as it's mentioned in all the brochures/website that they will convert to a "modern" (don't care) glass front fire (do care) in other words a stove.

 

He said that it wouldn't be done as it wasn't a back boiler one, I pointed out quite clearly that nothing about that is mentioned whatsoever - and he swore blind that it couldn't be done, I even went online in front of him but he said no cant be done.

 

To cut a long story short... He said that the cavity / loft will be done, and that they'll do draughtproofing etc.

 

We are Oil fired, and to be honest it's fine and has recently been fully serviced and was given an 85% efficiency by the testers very posh test kit - it's just a bloody expensive way of heating.

 

I really wanted the open fire sorting, I'm fully aware of the fact that a lot of the heat goes straight up the chimney and not only that it pulls a lot of cold outside air in to feed the chimney but to be honest we need it for keeping the main room warm enough.

 

He stated he'd had a number of people who wanted it, and every single person got the same answer and that it was only applicable to back boiler installations.

 

Once he'd left I rang WarmFront up to check, and got one of the most obstructive persons on the phone.

 

I had "If thats what he said, it's right" then, "I can't tell you until I've had his report" and after checking further "The Rulez is the Rulez mate" and "No, you can't have a copy of the Rules we work to"....

 

I have a very effective BS detector and aren't afraid to push hard.... I asked once again for the Rules and why they were sooo very confidential - bearing in mind that they are effectively an extension of Government and that in my opinion the FOI act applied... He then told me he'd complied with that by answering my question.... I laughed and pushed him even harder, as I deal with FOI stuff myself from time to time... In the end, after ten minutes on hold he came back and told me to search for a Statutory Instrument called HEET.....

 

We then terminated the call....

 

I have spoken to the DECC as well, who are coming back to me apparently...

 

I then setout to find the "HEET" SI... it doesn't exist, however I find it in the end...

 

The Home Energy Efficiency Scheme (England) Regulations 2005

 

And lo and behold...

 

Purposes for which a grant may be approved

5. —(1) A works application for a grant may be approved for one or more of the following purposes—

 

 

(a) to provide insulation in any accessible roof space in the dwelling, including the insulation of any cold-water tank and any water supply, overflow and expansion pipes in such a space;

 

(b) to provide insulation between the internal and external leaves of cavity walls of the dwelling;

 

© to provide draught proofing to or in the dwelling together with additional means of ventilation for any rooms which would otherwise be inadequately ventilated after such provision;

 

(d) to provide insulation to any water heating system or to provide any part of such a system with insulation incorporated in it;

 

(e) to provide gas room convector heaters with thermostat control;

 

(f) to provide electric storage heaters;

 

(g) to provide dual electric immersion water heaters with factory-insulated tank or electric or gas multipoint water heaters;

 

(h) to provide timer controls for electric space and water heaters;

(i) to improve the energy efficiency of, or replace any part of, or repair any space or water heating system installed in the dwelling;

 

(j) to provide a mains gas or oil-fired central heating system (including systems which generate electricity) with no more than six radiators;

 

(k) to convert open solid fuel room fires to closed solid fuel room fires;

 

(l) to provide a central heating system connected to the local community-heating grid, with no more than six radiators;

 

(m) to provide space or water heating systems which use energy from renewable sources including solar, wind and hydro-electric power and near renewable resources including ground and air heat.

 

In my eyes, I "Should" get reflective sheets behind radiators under section i and more importantly it CLEARLY states under point K that my open fire should be converted.

 

 

Section 9 is quite interesting in the Regs...

 

Looks like you can submit your OWN application....

 

 

Application for, and payment of, grant

9. —(1) A works application shall be made to the administering agency for the area in which the dwelling is situated.

 

(2) A works application shall be in writing, signed either by the applicant or by a person specified or of a description specified by the administering agency and shall be in such form and contain such particulars, subject to paragraph (3), as are laid down by the administering agency.

 

(3) The works application shall contain the following—

 

 

(a) particulars of the dwelling in respect of which the grant is sought;
 
(b) information about the applicant sufficient for the administering agency to check whether the applicant meets the criteria of eligibility set out in regulation 4;
 
© a statement of the purposes for which the grant is sought;
 
(d) a statement that reasonable access to the dwelling in respect of which the works application is made will be given to a representative of the administering agency to inspect the dwelling and carry out the works;
 
(e) where the applicant wishes to receive grant over a period of time, a statement to that effect and the suggested period.
 

(4) The Secretary of State shall pay the grant to the administering agency.

 

I'm going to make some waves tommorow morning.

 

I'm very easy going, but I HATE being lied to by people who should know better, and I shouldn't have to go digging up Stat Instruments to find out what I'm entitled to.

 

I will keep this up to date

[snappylincs]

More today....

 

We started the day with

 

No, it's only applicable to those with Back Boilers and Open Fires, it wasn't explained clearly and all we do is cap the back boiler and install a gas boiler instead.. Also apparently it's because they have no installers capable of doing the work, and thats the fault of the government as they've had to review all the installers and they just can't go and choose one - they have to be national and also capable of getting the grant funded work..... what a load of BS.

 

I asked for a manager - all busy...

 

I then called the EAGA company line, and asked who the MD was - got his name and then asked to be put through.... Eventually ended up in the warmfront contact centre on the phone to one of the "not available" managers.....

 

Apparently the CEO isn't "Customer Facing".........

 

After I explained the problem (again) and didn't back down, pointed the manager at the Regs he eventually said he'd call me back....

 

He did, but in the meantime I'd written a humdinger of an email to him, his CEO and my MP........ I've threatened that if they don't resolve the situation, I will obtain 3 quotes from firms to do the job, and then sue EAGA in the Small Claims track of the county courts for the sum and have it completed myself - and from my reading of the Act, I'll win hands down - they are clearly refusing to carry out their Statutory Duties.

 

The final update call ended up with me being told I was actually correct.... (which I knew).... And that they are going to now sort it out and were very sorry, I told him I wanted it in writing by email by 5pm... (It's not here yet)

 

I then received an hour later another phone call just checking up on my benefits to make sure I'm entitled....... which they'd done on the phone when I applied and also when the assessor came round.... Methinks it's related and they were hoping I wasn't (Clearly can't deal with the fact I'm actually working as well - which they'll know as I sent the email from my work blackberry...... she sounded quite shocked at that - but it's all legitimate and above board, I have nowt to fear on that score!)

 

They are now issuing the letter to my landlord for his permissions apparently....

 

 

 

What a turn around, and if they think I'm going away they have another thing coming....

 

What a disgrace, many (I'd say a large proportion) of the people they are MEANT to be helping are very vulnerable or elderly, have no idea of what a SI is nor have access to read an act of parliament, nor understand it's implications - and more importantly aren't stubborn enough to fight Eaga about it over days.

 

They absolutely HATED being confronted with the Act and they can't argue against it - after all it's the Law.... I intend to take this further - they are meant to help and assist you, and I have a sneaky feeling that from reading the Act... They get you the grant from the Secretary of State, stuff it in their bank account, and hold on to as much of it as humanly possible.... the less that gets spent, the better as it's sat in their holding accounts... It's an absolute disgrace.

Edited December 4, 2009 by snappylincs

[Beck1968]

Eaga is a Multi Billion pound rip-off company

[PriorityOne]

Hmmm.... they were going to leave me with an open, exposed asbestos flue after removing my old boiler because the grant supposedly wouldn't cover it.

 

I contacted my local council who hauled them back to deal with it.

[lee28]

OMG you people are getting the work done for nothing, it is a disgrace that you are moaning about a company that offers free help to people. Some people are just out to get everything done for nothing, how about you get the work done yourself.

 

People like you have caused the scheme to come to a end. Lots of people will go without because of some money grabbing people.

[PriorityOne]

OMG you people are getting the work done for nothing, it is a disgrace that you are moaning about a company that offers free help to people. Some people are just out to get everything done for nothing, how about you get the work done yourself.

 

People like you have caused the scheme to come to a end. Lots of people will go without because of some money grabbing people.

 

The company is not offering free help to people..... the Gov. is/was... and because of that, some companies thought they could get away with providing a sub-standard service.

 

People have an absolute right to expect a job to be carried out to a satisfactory standard. Money doesn't come into it..... so please climb down from that bitter high horse you're sat on. Your last para contradicts the point you're trying to make anyway.

 

[Nystagmite]

how about you get the work done yourself.

 

Are you aware of how expensive some work like this can be? My parents (despite all adults having some degree of disability; 2 of whom claim DLA and not having that high of an income) were turned down for warm front. They had to borrow around £1500 from 2 of their adult children. Fair? Bearing in mind that we had no working boiler.

[snappylincs]

OMG you people are getting the work done for nothing, it is a disgrace that you are moaning about a company that offers free help to people. Some people are just out to get everything done for nothing, how about you get the work done yourself.

 

People like you have caused the scheme to come to a end. Lots of people will go without because of some money grabbing people.

 

What?

 

Even though the work is being done "For Free" - It's FAR from "free"..

 

The Government has screwed up the housing market, to the point it's costing people thousands more than it should - let's face it, the reason rents went high (IMHO) is due to the LHA system and greedy ar$ed Buy to Let landlords.

 

While I'm on it, the Warmfront/Eaga scheme has NOT closed - it's open again in April, and from what I found... It could only ever support a specific number of applications, as EAGA immediately claim the full amount of the grant you are entitled to, even though you may only actually have a £100 insulation job done - and then they "hold" it....

 

 

And..............

 

As I forgot to update this thread

 

Here are a shed load of my emails to EAGA - Many of their responses were by phone - However, the couple of email addresses were very useful

 

At the point I'd been lied to, and fed a load of BS.... This one went in

 

Eaga Complaint and The Home Energy Efficiency Scheme (England) Regulations 2005

 

SENT TO:

 

 

steven.costigan

irene.cairns

drew.johnson

val.guest

julie.paddon

 

Those email addresses have an @ eaga.com on the end (silly forum software won't let me post it )

 

Steven,

Please find below a link to the relevant legislation.

 

Link to OPSI Site

 

I struggle to understand why you had problems finding it or reading it on Google as I searched 'The home energy efficiency regulations 2005' and it was the first result, and its not a difficult piece of legislation!

 

You will see under Para 5 subsection K that it clearly covers coal fires. Also you will see below a section dealing with applications for works, which clearly states the position with regards to applicants being able to apply for works to be carried out themselves, it doesn't need an assessor.

 

If eaga stay in the position that they will refuse to carry out the work (by using the excuse that you have no installers or anything else contrary to the regulations) then I will ensure my complaint is raised by my MP and with the DECC today.

 

I will also be quite prepared to ensure that Eaga is held to their statutory obligations as the administrators of the scheme under the above legislation by using the County Courts to sue Eaga for either the work to be completed or to claim the money for the value of the work to be done by a local Oftec registered company.

 

Eaga could have made their life much easier by not lying to me in the first place. I detest being lied to, which I have been a number of times, being given the run around and by the general attitude of the staff within your call centres and the fact that 'all managers are busy' for complaints, which rapidly changes when somebody rings the main company number to complain to the Chief Exec is an appalling state of affairs.

 

Your Chief Executive may not be 'customer facing' and may refuse to take my calls as per this morning, but be under no illusions that he will become rapidly concerned with this customer should I be forced to issue a summons. A Chief Exec who is not 'customer facing' at all and will not take complaints is a rather arrogant position.

 

If I can pick up the phone and obtain various quotes or contacts for numerous OFTEC registered installers to do the work then so can Eaga and any restrictions are only put in place by Eaga themselves to benefit themselves as has been raised previously by Parliamentary standards committees who have already raised concerns about the high prices, limited number and exclusivity of Eaga installers.

 

I look forward to hearing from yourselves shortly, I will just reiterate now so there is no doubt that lies, obfuscation, misinformation and a refusal to deal with this will only end up in one place and that is before the county courts who are in a position to force the issue.

 

Whilst typing this I have received an update call stating you will now carry out the work and that I'm correct, its a shame that Eaga need to be forced to comply with the regulations by somebody who should not have to be doing this!

 

As agreed on the phone, I look forward to receiving confirmation by email that my position was correct, that you have resolved this and are putting it into place (not just for me but for all the other customers who have been put in the same position many who are clearly vulnerable persons and unable to do what I have done!) and that the work I have identified will be carried out under the timescales of the scheme at minimum.

 

I would like to thank you and you alone for being the only person who has had the wherewithall to deal with the problem without obfuscating or lying, You are clearly a very rare person at Eaga.

 

I look forward to receiving your email shortly and at the latest by 5pm today.

 

Responded by:

 

From: Irene Cairns

Sent: 04 December 2009 16:51

 

 

Dear .........................

 

I write further to your email to our CEO, Drew Johnson, regarding the level of customer service received from us in relation to your Warm Front installation. Drew is currently out of the office and has asked me, as Senior Customer Service Manager, to respond on his behalf. I would like to formally apologise that your experience did not reflect the high standards of customer Service we expect for all our customers.

 

I would firstly like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to review your case. I appreciate that our initial approach to service recovery was not as customer focused as it should have been and I sincerely apologise for this, and that we did not respond to your reasonable requests in the appropriate manner. Please be assured that eaga takes seriously all constructive feedback and uses it to gauge true customer experience and to ensure that we improve the service we offer to our customers. I have already reviewed a number of points, relating to customer care, with my colleagues, in light of the issues raised both in your mail and through my investigation.

 

Please accept my assurances that I will respond to all points raised in order to identify any areas where our standards of service have not met your expectation. I will respond fully to the points raised in your correspondence once I have completed my investigation.

 

Whilst I am aware you have raised several concerns regarding the misinformation provided by our Contact Centre Operatives I will personally ensure any training areas identified are addressed with our Management Team to ensure there is no future repeat of this occurrence. I can confirm that we are able to provide conversion from solid fuel open fires to closed solid fuel room fires in accordance with “The home energy efficiency regulations 2005”. Please accept my apologies should this information not previously have been confirmed to you.

 

I will arrange to allocate a solid fuel installer to attend your home upon receipt of landlord permission to proceed with works under Warm Front.

 

I hope you will accept this assurance that your concerns are now being addressed.

 

Should you require any further assistance or have any questions in the meantime please do not hesitate to contact me.

 

With best wishes

 

Irene

 

I Replied with

 

 

Sent TO

 

 

 

Irene,

 

Thank you for the response so far, I look forward to hearing the final outcome.

 

I have had verbal confirmation from my landlord to go ahead so see no issues pending there, but appreciate you need written authority.

 

Can I also suggest that you visit the consumerforums and moneysavingexpert forums to see the other problems people have experienced, and I would also further suggest that a senior member of your team joins the forum to help resolve those and advise those people.

 

From my perspective your main problems begin when people go 'off script' at which point you seem to fail as the approach taken seems to be very much 'Computer says no'.

 

I should also point out that if the quote from eaga or your contractor, for cavity and loft insulation approaches anywhere near the £1000 mark (as suggested by your assessor as a ballpark figure) then I will be sorely dissapointed (I've been quoted privately at the £500 mark max by a number of firms) and will regard it as overcharging, just because it is grant funded there is no excuse and it will limit the work I can have completed under the scheme and will show a lack of best value, let alone be a clear case of monopolistic anti competitive price fixing. This sort of excessive pricing is a common complaint on the forums mentioned above.

 

As you have no doubt worked out I am well aware of my rights (and your obligations) and have no issues with enforcing them, I'm sure with your assistance we can now avoid such unpleasantries and you can help make your firm more approachable and accountable.

 

If you require any further assistance or information please let me know, I have dates and times/lengths of calls to warmfront if you require.

 

Thank you for sorting out the coal fire issue promptly and I look forward to hearing from you shortly.

 

Kind regards

 

Final reply from Eaga

 

 

Received from Irene Cairns

Dear Mr xxxx,

 

Further to your email I am please to advise that an installer has been allocated and will contact you accordingly in order to arrange convenient time and date to technically assess your property with a view of installing a fire front cassette.

 

However I feel it necessary to advise that the decision to proceed with this measure has been taking purely as a gesture of good will and not part of internal process as under current guidelines fire front cassette’s are only recommended where the open fire is a primary heat source an no other heating alternative can be offered.

 

I hope this information is useful however if there is anything further I can assist with please do not hesitate to contact me.

 

With best regards

Irene

So, they caved in... were held bang to rights - yet still tried to crawl out of it at the end.

 

Just shows you, with the right attitude, and some brains - the robots can really be rewired, screwed with, and put into their place

 

Gotta admit, ringing the main switchboard number and asking for the CEO went down well

 

 

 

 

As for us "money grabbers".... You may want to rethink that..

 

EAGA claimed a SHED LOAD of money for our property £6000....

 

Then wanted to fit

 

Cassette front fire

Loft/Wall Insulation

 

So, being EXTREMELY generous to them, they actually paid/cost about 2grand... but claimed 6000 as the allowable grant... Then shoved it all in the land of never never account to earn shed loads of interest.

 

Wonder where all the "surplus" goes at the end of the scheme.... ..... ..... .....

Edited April 5, 2011 by snappylincs

[SueP1944]

So, being EXTREMELY generous to them, they actually paid/cost about 2grand... but claimed 6000 as the allowable grant... Then shoved it all in the land of never never account to earn shed loads of interest.

 

Wonder where all the "surplus" goes at the end of the scheme.... ..... ..... .....

 

Warm Front are nothing more than a company, a private agency run for profit out of the distribution of grants. They have the 'customers' who request work to be done within the terms of the scheme. They contract out the work that they say the scheme allows for.

 

They do not ask the government for a bit here and a bit there depending on what work is coming up over the next month. They were appointed by the government to run the scheme and were given a 'pot' of money to have the scheme work.

The government were more than happy as the cost to the taxpayer was less this way than if it had been organised by a government department. Nothing different than having ATOS run the medical side of benefits.

Likewise the various 'charities' that used to run the Pathway Scheme for JSA claimants. They were paid a pot of money to provide the scheme. Scheme didn't work, but the charities kept the money!

 

Warm Front take their 'profit' as being the commission agreed with the government plus any left over (total grant allowed less cost of work completed).

 

In my father's case, he had a condemned boiler (rust on the exhaust vent). They refused to carry out any work even though he came within many of the allowed conditions viz. nearly 90, receives Attendance Allowance at the highest rate etc.

Reason: the boiler still worked. They only repair/replace boilers that are not working.

You find that restriction mentioned anywhere - It doesn't exist! He was clearly entitled to a new boiler under the scheme.

He was made to feel that he wasn't entitled so off he went and had one put in out of his own money - £2,000 (what bit he had of it!)

He just believed they were being honest and right.

I knew different and as you have pointed out, they are very deceptive. In his case they clocked up another £3600 which they didn't need to pay out.

Edited April 6, 2011 by SueP1944

[Nystagmite]

But if it works, why replace it?

[SueP1944]

I presume you were talking about my father's boiler. If not, I'm sorry if I have confused the issue.

 

His boiler whilst working was condemned by British Gas as dangerous. They put a tag around the inlet supply and a long sticker on the face of the boiler.

 

So whilst it would still work it was illegal to have it in operation.

 

As with the original question, efficiency is why the whole scheme started. If you have a fire that loses some 50%+ of the heat up the chimney, it should be replaced. Whether it works or not is immaterial, it is all down to the safety aspect and tha Energy Ratings..

[PriorityOne]

In my father's case, he had a condemned boiler (rust on the exhaust vent). They refused to carry out any work even though he came within many of the allowed conditions viz. nearly 90, receives Attendance Allowance at the highest rate etc.

Reason: the boiler still worked. They only repair/replace boilers that are not working.

You find that restriction mentioned anywhere - It doesn't exist! He was clearly entitled to a new boiler under the scheme.

He was made to feel that he wasn't entitled so off he went and had one put in out of his own money - £2,000 (what bit he had of it!)

He just believed they were being honest and right.

I knew different and as you have pointed out, they are very deceptive. In his case they clocked up another £3600 which they didn't need to pay out.

 

That was incorrect advice.

 

My boiler was replaced because it was old, in the kitchen with no outside flue and considered dangerous. It was still working at the time though. The only reason they wouldn't have replaced it was if I had another form of heating, they said..... As I had a non-working gas fire in the living room at the time, they said it could be repaired.

 

I had the fire removed by a gas engineer, called them back and spoke to someone else... they came round and had a look and it was approved.

[sj01]

Hi, I asked the same questions here last week.

I was accepted fro a grant of £3500 last year.

I used just over £300 for cavity wall insulation.

My boiler has broken so I rang warm front and was told I needed to reapply but cannot because the scheme has been suspended.

My question was, who has the rest of my grant.

My circumstances have not changed and ofcourse I realise I would need to prove that.

No one can tell me if Warmfront have the money or the government do.

I am going to write to my M.P I think.

[SueP1944]

Hi, I asked the same questions here last week.

I was accepted fro a grant of £3500 last year.

I used just over £300 for cavity wall insulation.

My boiler has broken so I rang warm front and was told I needed to reapply but cannot because the scheme has been suspended.

My question was, who has the rest of my grant.

My circumstances have not changed and ofcourse I realise I would need to prove that.

No one can tell me if Warmfront have the money or the government do.

I am going to write to my M.P I think.

 

Warm Front do! They were given a big pot of money and told to share it out with those that came within the scheme. Out of that pot they were allowed to keep a % as their commission for organising the scheme on behalf of the government. If the full amount was not taken up because you didn't at that time come within the full scheme (although there are many examples around that WF say you can't have it when infact you can, but they rely on your limited knowledge of the scheme) WF are are 'bending' the contract to suit themselves in order to push up their income. They keep the difference.

 

If you then need further help, and if the scheme was running as it was, you would re-apply, and if lucky be given another £3500. They would take away what you have used already, leaving you with the balance to go against the new work. In your case you would be allowed £3200, and say that the work came to £2000, they would keep the £1200!!

 

So be thankful that you may contributed to one of the director/shateholders new swimming pool!!!

[SueP1944]

That was incorrect advice.

 

My boiler was replaced because it was old, in the kitchen with no outside flue and considered dangerous. It was still working at the time though. The only reason they wouldn't have replaced it was if I had another form of heating, they said..... As I had a non-working gas fire in the living room at the time, they said it could be repaired.

 

I had the fire removed by a gas engineer, called them back and spoke to someone else... they came round and had a look and it was approved.

 

Yes I know it was wrong advice, but my father didn't tell me until he had paid for it himself. He also has an open coal fire, but nothing was said about that.

[jaminja]

I then setout to find the "HEET" SI... it doesn't exist, however I find it in the end...The Home Energy Efficiency Scheme (England) Regulations

 

Hi folks...

 

Thanks for the link - very clear on the entitlements and requirements; just as well for ppl with small brains like myself . I'm sharing a private tenancy, am myself entitled based on my receipt of DLA; my Mum is also in receipt of Pension Credit etc.. we already knew this back in December when EAGA and the gov't "suspended" the scheme. Now they're accepting applications again (as of last week I think?) I managed to get the webform submitted in spite of the erroroneous leasehold checkbox "bug". (for freehold - leave said box unticked but select >21 years below, otherwise it will not submit)

 

Anyways... we got an email back from EAGA and they are to send an assessor out within 21 days: with one caveat. Apparently as private tenants we must show evidence that we are responsible for the "maintenance" of the heating system. Not quite sure about that one. As it happens I do have buildings insurance(!) and we did actually order a part for the back boiler recently.. though I see nothing in the legislation which indicates that private tenants must maintain the heating system (it's gas BTW). I'm happy to paste in their emails; obviously I could request an addendum to our tenancy agreement etc. and supply insurance docs - but I've a feeling it's BS on their part.

 

I can't imagine many situations where private tenants (disabled/elderly/poor!) would be responsible for heating maintenance in rented accommodation. Housing act 1985 mentions "tenant-like maintenance" .. specifying things that the tenant could remove (IOW not the heating system!). And there's a gas safety certificate: I do hope they don't expect me to go out and have a safety check done in my name?!... any advice gladly appreciated - will post back with any responses from this fine organization ;^).

 

rgdz...j

Edited April 18, 2011 by jaminja
terrible html codes!