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    • I've just started to read Carey v HSBC on Casemine, 
    • Thank you for that "read me", It's a lot to digest, lots of legal procedure. There was one thing that I was going to mention to you,  but in one of the conversations in that thread it was mentioned that there may be spies on the Forum,  this is something that I've read quite some time ago in a previous thread. What I had in mind was to wait for the thirty days after their reply to my CCA request and then send the unenforceable letter. I was hoping that an absence of signature could be the Silver Bullet but it seems that there are lot of layers to peel on this Onion.  
    • love the extra £1000 charge for confidentialy there BF   Also OP even if they don't offer OOC it doesn't mean your claim isn't good. I had 3 against EVRi that were heard over the last 3 weeks. They sent me emails asking me to discontinue as I wouldn't win. Went infront of a judge and won all 3.    Just remember the law is on your side. The judges will be aware of this.   Where you can its important to try to point out at the hearing the specific part of the contract they breached. I found this was very helpful and the Judge made reference to it when they gave their judgements and it seemed this was pretty important as once you have identified a specific breach the matter turns straight to liability. From there its a case of pointing out the unlawfullness of their insurance and then that should be it.
    • I know dx and thanks again for yours and others help. I was 99.999% certain last payment was over six years ago if not longer.  👍
    • Paragraph 23 – "standard industry practice" – put this in bold type. They are stupid to rely on this and we might as well carry on emphasising how stupid they are. I wonder why they could even have begun to think some kind of compelling argument – "the other boys do it so I do it as well…" Same with paragraph 26   Paragraph 45 – The Defendants have so far been unable to produce any judgements at any level which disagree with the three judgements…  …court, but I would respectfully request…   Just the few amendments above – and I think it's fine. I think you should stick to the format that you are using. This has been used lots of times and has even been applauded by judges for being meticulous and clear. You aren't a professional. Nobody is expecting professional standards and although it's important that you understand exactly what you are doing – you don't really want to come over to the judge that you have done this kind of thing before. As a litigant in person you get a certain licence/leeway from judges and that is helpful to you – especially if you are facing a professional advocate. The way this is laid out is far clearer than the mess that you will get from EVRi. Quite frankly they undermine their own credibility by trying to say that they should win simply because it is "standard industry practice". It wouldn't at all surprise me if EVRi make you a last moment offer of the entire value of your claim partly to avoid judgement and also partly to avoid the embarrassment of having this kind of rubbish exposed in court. If they do happen to do that, then you should make sure that they pay everything. If they suddenly make you an out-of-court offer and this means that they are worried that they are going to lose and so you must make sure that you get every penny – interest, costs – everything you claimed. Finally, if they do make you an out-of-court offer they will try to sign you up to a confidentiality agreement. The answer to that is absolutely – No. It's not part of the claim and if they want to settle then they settle the claim as it stands and don't try add anything on. If they want confidentiality then that will cost an extra £1000. If they don't like it then they can go do the other thing. Once you have made the amendments suggested above – it should be the final version. court,. I don't think we are going to make any more changes. Your next job good to make sure that you are completely familiar with it all. That you understand the arguments. Have you made a court familiarisation visit?
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consumer dispute with builder/supplier


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I was wondering if someone could help/advise me about an issue.

 

I am a manufacturer. Wood Windows and doors only.

 

We supplied ( supply to trade ) a sliding patio door to a builder ( unglazed ), over two years ago. It's now developed a water leak. He's wishes us to replace the door.

 

I have seen the water mark the day after they say the rain is coming in.

I have not witnessed a leak. The leak, could be coming threw the glazing, ( we didn't glaze the door ) The leak could be coming threw the glass roof running down the door.

 

The builder and the customer are pushing for me to replace this door. They have taken advise from an architect. I'm not sure if the builder/architect have a working relationship. I have a feeling they may.

Retail it will fetch £2000.

 

Nobody seems to know exactly where this leak is coming in.

In 20 years, we've never had any problems with our trade clients before.

I don't know how to proceed or where to take it from here.

 

Any help would be much appreciated.

Edited by noddybigears
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Although this is trade to trade and doesn't come under comsumer regulations, they are still going to have to show that your goods are at fault and it is up to them to do so not you to show it's not.

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It sounds as if the builder wants you to pay for something that may well be 'his' responsibility.

 

Firstly who paid you for the door? Was it the builder or was it the customer direct. First we have to establish who your 'contract' if any is with.

 

This is nothing to do with who is to blame of course just working out who is responsible to who. For example if the customer paid the builder for the job, they have no legal right to approach you themselves.

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I'm surpised the location cannot be identified - water ingress means either the track isn't sealed, and water is first pooling outside then transferring inside. If the glass is incorrect, that's not your problem either. Dis you manufacture the door and track, or was this fabricated by another? If so, ask the manufacturer if there are issues with water ingress during the lifetime of the product? If not, and it is down to incorrect installation, you've nothing to worry about.

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I'm still not sure how they feel you are liable in the first place to be honest. Are they saying that the doors are/have warped or that the water is penetrating the wood? Somewhat confused!! :confused: What is the basis for their conclusions?

 

If you did supply a new door my guess is that they would then invoice you for the cost of re-installing and re-glazing etc so this could end up costing you a lot more than the trade cost of the doors. It may well be that the builder is simply looking for someone to share the blame of course.

 

I would be inclined to advise them in writing that you have inspected the door and consider it to be "fit for purpose." Consequently, you refute any suggestion that the door frame is the cause of any problems presently being experienced.

 

Do you have insurance for this sort of thing? If so, then the builder and his architect friend may baulk at the prospect of an insurance assessor inspecting the property properly.

 

Best of luck!! ;)

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

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Thank you to everyone for taking the time to respond

 

The builder paid me for the door, trade price. Builder has the contract with the public customer.

 

Builder/architect have both approached me.

If it was my error, I would fix it no problems. But I definitely feel this a blame shift. I never usually have any problems with my trade customers, and if anything, I'm always getting them out of a pickle with wrong sizes, botched jobs etc.

 

There’s a track that runs along the bottom, silicone sealed, the full length of the sliding patio doors, which sticks up 12mm. And I’ve never in my lifetime seen water that can jump 12mm ..smiley. So there’s no way it’s coming under the strip. But that’s what they are implying.

 

I manufactured the door, and thanks, I will give a ring to the track supplier to if there are issues with water ingress during the lifetime of the track.

 

They’re saying it’s water penetration, but no-one can tell me where it’s coming in from. The builder attempted to convince me with a hose pipe. To which I pointed out to him, it’s not a true indication of rain fall, and any window can leak when you fire a hose at it.

 

I have got insurance, and will take your great advice on board regards a insurance assessor.

 

I’ll keep you all informed, and many thanks

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Hi Architect ( this is the first email I received from the builder, as a carbon copy of what he emailed to the architect. Which prompted me to post online to the forum asking you for advice )

 

Hi Architect

 

As advised in recent telephone conversations I met with Cocobean of Sash Windows concerning the above and he has agreed to a remake. He is keen that a dialogue is opened with you concerning design, seals, etc. As we are all agreed that a remake of what is already there is not the answer.

 

Contact details for Cocobean are as follows Tel. 011110000 Mob 00003333 email: - c at c dot co dot uk

 

Keep me informed of progress and if I can be of any assistance in bring matters to a speedy conclusion, please do not hesitate to give me a call.

 

Regards

The builder

 

……………………………….........................

 

Dear Builder

Thank you for your email. In regards to our meeting at .......

 

You informed me on the day we met, that it’s water penetration. But no-one can tell me where it’s coming in from. You attempted to convince me that you have by spraying it with a hose pipe. To which, I pointed out to you, that, it’s not a true indication of rain fall. Rain does not behave like a mains hose pipe.

 

After inspecting the door, I consider it to be "fit for purpose." Consequently, I refute any suggestion that the door frame is the cause of any problems presently being experienced.

 

Please note I have emailed a copy of this letter to your contact architect associate

( architect at hotmail.com ) , which the email details were included in the email you sent to me on the 3rd of December 2009.

Regards

ME Cocobean

………………………………..........

 

Dear Mr Cocobean

Further to your email below I suggest you contact the architect to resolve this situation as a matter of urgency. As you can be rest assured this will go legal and you will be at the forefront of any action, if you maintain your current stance. Also for you to suggest that the doors and side screens are fit for purpose is totally and utterly preposterous.

 

In closing, I personally and completely refute that we had any discussions when we met last week, concerning the use of a hose pipe. I suggest you look to meet with Mr Architect as a matter of urgency, for not do so will have dire financial consequences on your part.

Yours sincerely

The Builder

 

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Basically just threats to try and force you to pay up and remedy something that is 'probably' (I say probably as not a wood expert!) not your fault. I always believe people only say things like 'dire financial consequences' when they dont have any valid point to make.

 

Personally I would ignore them from this point on. If you are honestly happy there is no issue with your work then play hardball and not do anything more. Continuing dialogue from this point in letter form or otherwise is more likely to harm, than help, you.

 

And besides the builder is the one who has to make things right with 'his' customer in the meantime not you.

 

Remember, he as to prove your 'guilt'....not you your innocense!!

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I think Mr Builder must have worked for a DCA in a former life!! :p

 

It's intimidation. Just stand firm and let him do his worst.

 

As Maverick has said above, the builder is the one who needs to be putting things right with his client first and foremost.

 

Also, what reputable architect is contactable at a hotmail address??

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

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Noddybigears

 

I have worked in the window industry for a number of years and we have had similar problems in the past.

 

The door would not be expected to pass a properly carried out water test let alone being blasted with a hose pipe. It might we wise to look at the cwct website but for non members the only reference i could find was http://www.cwct.co.uk/publications/tns/short41.pdf

 

We have always been allowed to tape across any opening joint as a modification to cope with testing doors or opening lights.

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Noddybigears

 

I have worked in the window industry for a number of years and we have had similar problems in the past.

 

The door would not be expected to pass a properly carried out water test let alone being blasted with a hose pipe. It might we wise to look at the cwct website but for non members the only reference i could find was http://www.cwct.co.uk/publications/tns/short41.pdf

 

We have always been allowed to tape across any opening joint as a modification to cope with testing doors or opening lights.

 

Sounds as if Gimp0r knows what he's talking about!! :D

 

Shame the same can't be said about Mr Builder and Mr (Contactable at Hotmail) Architect!! :rolleyes:

If you feel I've helped then by all means click my star to the left...a simple "thank you" costs nothing! ;)

 

Restons MBNA -v- WelshMam

 

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