consumer dispute with builder/supplier

[noddybigears]

I was wondering if someone could help/advise me about an issue.

 

I am a manufacturer. Wood Windows and doors only.

 

We supplied ( supply to trade ) a sliding patio door to a builder ( unglazed ), over two years ago. It's now developed a water leak. He's wishes us to replace the door.

 

I have seen the water mark the day after they say the rain is coming in.

I have not witnessed a leak. The leak, could be coming threw the glazing, ( we didn't glaze the door ) The leak could be coming threw the glass roof running down the door.

 

The builder and the customer are pushing for me to replace this door. They have taken advise from an architect. I'm not sure if the builder/architect have a working relationship. I have a feeling they may.

Retail it will fetch £2000.

 

Nobody seems to know exactly where this leak is coming in.

In 20 years, we've never had any problems with our trade clients before.

I don't know how to proceed or where to take it from here.

 

Any help would be much appreciated.

Edited December 3, 2009 by noddybigears

[Conniff]

Although this is trade to trade and doesn't come under comsumer regulations, they are still going to have to show that your goods are at fault and it is up to them to do so not you to show it's not.

[borisbeaver]

It could have been fitted badly.

[the_maverick]

It sounds as if the builder wants you to pay for something that may well be 'his' responsibility.

 

Firstly who paid you for the door? Was it the builder or was it the customer direct. First we have to establish who your 'contract' if any is with.

 

This is nothing to do with who is to blame of course just working out who is responsible to who. For example if the customer paid the builder for the job, they have no legal right to approach you themselves.

[buzby]

I'm surpised the location cannot be identified - water ingress means either the track isn't sealed, and water is first pooling outside then transferring inside. If the glass is incorrect, that's not your problem either. Dis you manufacture the door and track, or was this fabricated by another? If so, ask the manufacturer if there are issues with water ingress during the lifetime of the product? If not, and it is down to incorrect installation, you've nothing to worry about.

[WelshMam2009]

I'm still not sure how they feel you are liable in the first place to be honest. Are they saying that the doors are/have warped or that the water is penetrating the wood? Somewhat confused!! What is the basis for their conclusions?

 

If you did supply a new door my guess is that they would then invoice you for the cost of re-installing and re-glazing etc so this could end up costing you a lot more than the trade cost of the doors. It may well be that the builder is simply looking for someone to share the blame of course.

 

I would be inclined to advise them in writing that you have inspected the door and consider it to be "fit for purpose." Consequently, you refute any suggestion that the door frame is the cause of any problems presently being experienced.

 

Do you have insurance for this sort of thing? If so, then the builder and his architect friend may baulk at the prospect of an insurance assessor inspecting the property properly.

 

Best of luck!!

[noddybigears]

Thank you to everyone for taking the time to respond

 

The builder paid me for the door, trade price. Builder has the contract with the public customer.

 

Builder/architect have both approached me.

If it was my error, I would fix it no problems. But I definitely feel this a blame shift. I never usually have any problems with my trade customers, and if anything, I'm always getting them out of a pickle with wrong sizes, botched jobs etc.

 

There’s a track that runs along the bottom, silicone sealed, the full length of the sliding patio doors, which sticks up 12mm. And I’ve never in my lifetime seen water that can jump 12mm ..smiley. So there’s no way it’s coming under the strip. But that’s what they are implying.

 

I manufactured the door, and thanks, I will give a ring to the track supplier to if there are issues with water ingress during the lifetime of the track.

 

They’re saying it’s water penetration, but no-one can tell me where it’s coming in from. The builder attempted to convince me with a hose pipe. To which I pointed out to him, it’s not a true indication of rain fall, and any window can leak when you fire a hose at it.

 

I have got insurance, and will take your great advice on board regards a insurance assessor.

 

I’ll keep you all informed, and many thanks

[noddybigears]

Hi Architect ( this is the first email I received from the builder, as a carbon copy of what he emailed to the architect. Which prompted me to post online to the forum asking you for advice )

 

Hi Architect

 

As advised in recent telephone conversations I met with Cocobean of Sash Windows concerning the above and he has agreed to a remake. He is keen that a dialogue is opened with you concerning design, seals, etc. As we are all agreed that a remake of what is already there is not the answer.

 

Contact details for Cocobean are as follows Tel. 011110000 Mob 00003333 email: - c at c dot co dot uk

 

Keep me informed of progress and if I can be of any assistance in bring matters to a speedy conclusion, please do not hesitate to give me a call.

 

Regards

The builder

 

……………………………….........................

 

Dear Builder

Thank you for your email. In regards to our meeting at .......

 

You informed me on the day we met, that it’s water penetration. But no-one can tell me where it’s coming in from. You attempted to convince me that you have by spraying it with a hose pipe. To which, I pointed out to you, that, it’s not a true indication of rain fall. Rain does not behave like a mains hose pipe.

 

After inspecting the door, I consider it to be "fit for purpose." Consequently, I refute any suggestion that the door frame is the cause of any problems presently being experienced.

 

Please note I have emailed a copy of this letter to your contact architect associate

( architect at hotmail.com ) , which the email details were included in the email you sent to me on the 3rd of December 2009.

Regards

ME Cocobean

………………………………..........

 

Dear Mr Cocobean

Further to your email below I suggest you contact the architect to resolve this situation as a matter of urgency. As you can be rest assured this will go legal and you will be at the forefront of any action, if you maintain your current stance. Also for you to suggest that the doors and side screens are fit for purpose is totally and utterly preposterous.

 

In closing, I personally and completely refute that we had any discussions when we met last week, concerning the use of a hose pipe. I suggest you look to meet with Mr Architect as a matter of urgency, for not do so will have dire financial consequences on your part.

Yours sincerely

The Builder

 

[Conniff]

Sounds like he is trying to bully you. I think should should check the door condition and installation very carefully before you consider actioning this in any way.

[the_maverick]

Basically just threats to try and force you to pay up and remedy something that is 'probably' (I say probably as not a wood expert!) not your fault. I always believe people only say things like 'dire financial consequences' when they dont have any valid point to make.

 

Personally I would ignore them from this point on. If you are honestly happy there is no issue with your work then play hardball and not do anything more. Continuing dialogue from this point in letter form or otherwise is more likely to harm, than help, you.

 

And besides the builder is the one who has to make things right with 'his' customer in the meantime not you.

 

Remember, he as to prove your 'guilt'....not you your innocense!!

[WelshMam2009]

I think Mr Builder must have worked for a DCA in a former life!!

 

It's intimidation. Just stand firm and let him do his worst.

 

As Maverick has said above, the builder is the one who needs to be putting things right with his client first and foremost.

 

Also, what reputable architect is contactable at a hotmail address??

[noddybigears]

I just work away, keeping myself to myself. I've manufacturered for 21 years now. Never had any problems.

 

This problem is a first for me.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read my posts, and for giving your sound advice.

[gimp0r]

Noddybigears

 

I have worked in the window industry for a number of years and we have had similar problems in the past.

 

The door would not be expected to pass a properly carried out water test let alone being blasted with a hose pipe. It might we wise to look at the cwct website but for non members the only reference i could find was http://www.cwct.co.uk/publications/tns/short41.pdf

 

We have always been allowed to tape across any opening joint as a modification to cope with testing doors or opening lights.

[WelshMam2009]

Noddybigears

 

I have worked in the window industry for a number of years and we have had similar problems in the past.

 

The door would not be expected to pass a properly carried out water test let alone being blasted with a hose pipe. It might we wise to look at the cwct website but for non members the only reference i could find was http://www.cwct.co.uk/publications/tns/short41.pdf

 

We have always been allowed to tape across any opening joint as a modification to cope with testing doors or opening lights.

 

Sounds as if Gimp0r knows what he's talking about!!

 

Shame the same can't be said about Mr Builder and Mr (Contactable at Hotmail) Architect!!

[borisbeaver]

Just wondering if the builder fitted a DPC under the framework?

 

Sounds a lot like the building is trying to cover his/her derryaire!