what should I do now - if anything

[flooz]

Capital one couldn't produce a credit agreement, so sent 'scott's letter' (as advised http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/221505-new-rules-loans-credit.html#post2501581 here).

 

Received telephone call from them requesting payment over telephone to bring account up to date, which we decline, and requested they correspondence with us by letter.

 

Received today monthly statement which is now obviously incorporating late/non payment charges, as well as accruing interest.

 

Is there any particular letter I should send? As the account is 'in dispute' aren't continuing charges supposed to be put on hold? Indeed, do I need to do anything? Or do i just let things take their course and wait for DCA letters to start arriving?

 

Any assistance greatfully received.

 

Many thanks.

[flooz]

[usaname]

Hi,

 

The account being in dispute does not stop them from adding interest and default charges. They simply can't ask you to pay until such time as the agreement is deemed enforceable, or not as the case may be.

[flooz]

Thanks for taking the time to respond usaname. Only thing that puzzles me then, is why in the 'account in dispute' letter does it suggest that they may not add interest and further charges? Or is there something else I don't understand?

 

[usaname]

Hi,

 

Are you sure that the dispute letter suggests that they can't add interest and default charges? I had initially had the same belief, but couldn't find anything to back it up.

 

The only references I can find regarding limitations whilst in dispute are:

 

May not ask for payment against this account.

I am not obliged to offer any payment against this account.

Cannot register any data with a third party.

Cannot take any enforcement action, including registering Defaults.

Cannot pass the account on to a third party for collection.

Cannot sell the account.

[flooz]

OK. This was in the text of the letter I sent (advised on a previous thread in General Debt)

 

As the time limit for providing the true copy has now expired, you are now in default of my request. Any account I hold with you is now in legal dispute. Whilst the account remains in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agency.

 

So I take it, that's not right then.

[flooz]

update: CapOne have today sent a signed credit agreement some 9 weeks after the initial SAR letter was sent; They'd initially tried to get away with providing a blank agreement, using the Section 3 (?) rule, which I followed up with a letter putting account into dispute.

 

What's bothering me is why only now have they produced this? Is it relevant? Do I now just accept they have an enforceable agreement? Does the fact that the agreement was produced out of time have any bearing on the matter?

 

Any further assistance is much appreciated.

[usaname]

Does the document that they have sent contain all the prescribed items? If it doesn't then it's unenforceable.

 

Just because they say it's enforceable doesn't necessarily mean that it is.

 

Can you scan it, remove sensitive information and post it up for inspection?

[usaname]

OK. This was in the text of the letter I sent (advised on a previous thread in General Debt)

 

As the time limit for providing the true copy has now expired, you are now in default of my request. Any account I hold with you is now in legal dispute. Whilst the account remains in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agency.

 

So I take it, that's not right then.

 

From further reading I think that you are correct in believing that they should not add interest and charges whilst the account is in dispute. It also appears that whilst they should not, they most definitely will - as you have found out.

[flooz]

Thanks Usaname - I'm just trying to scan documents in and will post them tomorrow.

 

[flooz]

For some reason, I cannot get the images uploaded to photobucket,I'm trying hard to put them as attachments, but at the moment, failing miserably at that too

[flooz]

OK, I think I might have the hang of this now, so, this is page one of Cap One's response...

 

[flooz]

and the letter that accompanied it, page 1

[flooz]

sorry, but I don't seem to be able to get it a 'sensible' size. Page 2 of letter. Accompanied with the letter and agreement is 5 pages of printed T&C's, which may or may not be the T&C's present at time of agreement. As they do not appear to form part of the actual agreement in their current form, but of course may have been in small print on the reverse of the agreement signed. Hope this is all of assistance.

[usaname]

Hi,

 

It is difficult to read the copy of the credit agreement they have supplied you with, but from what can be seen, it is, at the very best, a poor application form. It is devoid of most, if not all of the prescribed terms. E.G.

What is the interest rate? What are the repayments? What is the credit limit?

 

As they state in the letter, the ombudsman is unlikely to assist with enforceability issues.

 

If I had that as a CCA, I would write back and advise them that due to certain prescribed terms being missing from it (the CCA), you consider the alleged account/debt to be in dispute. It's likely they won't respond. I'd then sit and wait for them to make the next move. The call is yours, though.

[flooz]

I'll try again, just in case I manage to get it clearer, although the original isn't brilliant. It looks like it might have been 'distorted' through faxing or similar.

 

There are T&C's, which include interest rate, etc (but no credit limit, as that has been increased from time to time) but they are separate and don't form part of the signed document (they actually appear to just to have been printed to be included with their recent letter. Am I right to understand that the T&C's should form part of the SIGNED document?? If this is the case, is there a template letter that I can use as a basis for my response? I'm not brilliant at writing from scratch. I have sent a 'account in dispute letter', but that was sent after they originally provided a blank agreement, possibly in an effort to gain time for coming up with this one. (if you see what I mean). As their letter above shows, they do not accept the dispute. So should I do another but based on a different dispute now? Many thanks for your continuing help.

Edited January 3, 2010 by flooz

[usaname]

Hi,

 

As far as I am aware the prescribed terms and the signature must be on the same side of the document.

 

The document they have sent is an application form. There is a line about halfway down and starts "I have read the terms and conditions..." and goes on to read "if my application is accepted".

 

Personally, I'd sit and wait for their next move.

[flooz]

Thanks again Usaname. So, it looks like the T&C's weren't drawn up correctly in the first place: Perhaps what I've received is a clever pasting job of the application form, with a possible replaced header of "credit card account agreement". I guess they're trying everything possible to show people they have got enforceable agreements - 99% of people with probably accept that.

 

The next step has already been received in the form of a standard "you have missed a payment" letter. It details the charges they've added to the account etc. I think I will respond at this stage, primarily because they appear to have 'rejected' my account in dispute letter, as they believe they have now produced a valid agreement (albeit 2 months after the original SAR letter). Although this time I will write that the document they have provided is not drawn up correctly - or something similar.

 

Once I've composed a suitable letter, I shall post again, if nothing else, perhaps others might be able to use it.

 

 

Just had a further thought - can they get round that by the clause that says the T&C's can be amended from time to time, so therefore it doesn't matter whether the T&C's are attached or not, likewise it doesn't matter that the T&C's they've supplied are not the same - because they've been amended??

Edited December 12, 2009 by flooz

[flooz]

Ok, have used a 'possible letter' from the templates, and searched around a little, and have come up with this. Any comments or further suggestions much appreciated before I send. Also, (as long as it's ok), feel free to use if you wish.

 

Apologies, can only seem to put it up as an attachment. when I copy/paste, all the formatting comes out too and makes it illegible.

blank.doc

Edited December 13, 2009 by flooz

[usaname]

Hi,

 

I am granting to you a further 21 days to produce a copy of the full executable agreement. After that I will consider that the above account is closed and that you will no longer pursue the alleged debt. In the absence of an enforceable agreement the alleged account will be viewed as a gift from Capital One

 

I'd give them seven working days. They've already had sufficient time. Why give them more than they deserve?

 

.

[flooz]

Thanks again usaname, I've decided to split the difference and have given them 14 days. I'm feeling generous. lol

[flooz]

I'm made a couple of slight amendments, Would you mind just checking again for me? I'll be immensely grateful. Incidentally, has the fact that they're out of time any bearing on the matter??

blank.doc

[flooz]

Letter was sent and now the phone calls have started, now somewhere on here I saw a really good letter to send when the calls started coming thick and fast ;-)

 

We just refuse to answer the security questions so they get nowhere. lol.

[usaname]

Hi,

 

I'm not sure where the template you require is.

I let the answering machine take the call. They never leave a message. Such a waste of the cost of a phone call. Still, they can afford it.

[flooz]

Thanks usaname - we can't always let the ansamachine take the call, unless we're 100% certain it's them, as our number is also our business line.

 

I just hope they don't take to phoning us early in the morning - as we're publicans, our hours of work/life are somewhat different to theirs. :-|