PCN I recieved, have I got a chance of appealing?

[djsyxx]

Hey guys want some advice. Basically I was parked up on a road where you have to phone a number and pay over the phone to specify how long you wanna stay. The controlled zone runs until 6.30pm and there after its free. I even confirmed this with the woman I spoke to when I was putting through the payment.

 

I went back to my car later in the evening and found a ticket on my car, and it was for my car being parked during loading only hours. Which apparently runs from 7pm-7am. Where I was parked its enforced only on that small section of the parking bays. Now I was pointed out by someone there is one sign which states the 7pm-7am rule but its facing towards the road. There isn't a sign facing towards the pavement side with that information. There is a sign for the telephone number and location zone on both sides of the pole and telling you the time restrictions.

 

Now when I parked up and looked at the sign, for obvious reasons I was on the pavement rather than going on the street to look up at the sign for the telephone number so I could pay for my parking till 6.30pm. So my question is can I challenge this ticket as I wasn't aware of this restriction at the time, I was told by the parking operator it is free after 6.30pm. And there wasn't a sign or for that matter information about loading restriction enforced from 7pm facing towards the pavement side?

 

Thanks.

Edited February 6, 2010 by djsyxx

[green_and_mean]

Signs are only meant to face the road however they may have been wrong post photos if you can.

[buzby]

Dosen't look good - the sign MUST be visible to drivers, NOT pedestrians. As G&M suggest, post up the pix if you can. It may be worthwhile making an informal appeal, quoting your parking receipt reference in mitigation.

[green_and_mean]

A word of caution never listen to anything 'pay by phone ' operators say as regards parking restrictions all they do is process payments. They are probably in a town miles away and have never even seen the street. All they usually know is the charged hours and cost for the location you quote.

[Blagton]

Hey guys want some advice. Basically I was parked up on a road where you have to phone a number and pay over the phone to specify how long you wanna stay. The controlled zone runs until 6.30pm and there after its free. I even confirmed this with the woman I spoke to when I was putting through the payment.

 

Woaaa.....stop there. Is this a PCN or a Invoice from a PPC ?

 

Who issued this "ticket" ?

 

Any pictures of the signs ?

 

Blagton

[djsyxx]

Hi there guys I got pictures of the sign, when I parked up on the monday I was basically looking at the sign with the number and the location number on the pavement side as shown:

 

 

The sign displaying loading only is facing to the road. This is the sign:

 

 

I wasn't looking on that side as I was on the pavement phoning the number and putting through the payment thinking everything would be ok. It also seems that its enforced only on that side of the road, rest of the road doesn't have this.

 

It does say on there charging hours 8.30am-6.30pm all other times no charge so I don't know if I could use that as a valid arguement as well as only one loading only sign.

 

If I challenge it do I have a chance or if I'm just clutching at straws here?

 

BTW it is a PCN from the Westminster.

[buzby]

Straws. The sign must be evident to the DRIVER, so what is on the pavement side could be complementary, the signage was correct and displayed as it should be.

[TheBogsDollocks]

The large sign is not prescribed by the regulations. I would request that the council prove that they have been given DfT authorisation to use this sign. It they fail to provide a copy of the DfT authorisation and accompanying technical drawings then it is likely they have not got it and the signage is unlawful and cannot be enforced.

[djsyxx]

The large sign is not prescribed by the regulations. I would request that the council prove that they have been given DfT authorisation to use this sign. It they fail to provide a copy of the DfT authorisation and accompanying technical drawings then it is likely they have not got it and the signage is unlawful and cannot be enforced.

 

When you say the large sign are you reffering to the Loading only sign? And how would I find out this information whether the signage is unlawful?

[buzby]

So your of the opinion that the loading sign is invalid because the other signage may not be lawful? That would be a first!

[TheBogsDollocks]

When you say the large sign are you reffering to the Loading only sign? And how would I find out this information whether the signage is unlawful?

 

Apologies djsyxx, just re-read your initial post and realised the PCN is for the loading restriction and not for failing to pay. The Loading Only sign is lawful.

 

Better photos of the location and bay markings may help us assist you as we need to see where the sign is in comparison to where you parked.

 

If the location on googlemaps has the identical signage then that will do if you post up a link.

[djsyxx]

Yeah went on google maps but its out of date but to give you an idea where the red car is on the left hand side of the road (Tesco's) is where I parked from my pictures you can see in relation where the sign would be and the loading only sign is on that side the rest of the road is fine.

 

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=nw8+circus+road&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=11.25,26.411133&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Circus+Rd,+London+NW8,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.533719,-0.172049&spn=0.010999,0.025792&z=15&layer=c&cbll=51.533675,-0.172145&panoid=4Ks8mmyYHXMxFGjkliXZmA&cbp=12,49.07,,0,12.79

[dx100uk]

Woaaa.....stop there. Is this a PCN or a Invoice from a PPC ?

 

Who issued this "ticket" ?

 

Any pictures of the signs ?

 

Blagton

 

 

PPC policing on a road?

 

dx

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

I would appeal this on the basis tyhat the contravention did not occur because of inadequate signage.

 

What there is is a conflict between the loading only sign and the parking sign with the sole restriction of a max of 4 hours and no return within 1 hours and no restriction as to applicability of that parking permission.

[green_and_mean]

a) Was the bay marked 'loading only?

b) Did the PCN contain any observation time?

 

I'm a bit confused is the loading bay the same bay but doesn't start until 7pm or are there different bays? The pay by phone sign is non compliant and as far as I can see would never be approved as it has NO TIME on it meaning its pay by phone 24/7. Actual photos of the bay are needed signs on their own are useless.

Edited December 4, 2009 by green_and_mean

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Pure conjecture on my part but I reckon this is a bay that the council wants to have as loading only overnight (7pm - 7am) but which is for parking at all other times with payment by phone from 8:30am to 6:30pm. But this is not what the signs say.

[JimmySpangle]

I would go along with that. They wouldn't be trying to deliberately catch people off guard and earn a big fine in the meantime would they?

[green_and_mean]

Pure conjecture on my part but I reckon this is a bay that the council wants to have as loading only overnight (7pm - 7am) but which is for parking at all other times with payment by phone from 8:30am to 6:30pm. But this is not what the signs say.

 

Seems odd then that the parking is not 7am to 7pm then?? I am not convinced this dual use is permitted the only way they could have done it was to install a SYL 7pm to 7am which would have allowed loading. If the bay is dual use both restrictions on use should be on the same sign.

[djsyxx]

a) Was the bay marked 'loading only?

b) Did the PCN contain any observation time?

 

I'm a bit confused is the loading bay the same bay but doesn't start until 7pm or are there different bays? The pay by phone sign is non compliant and as far as I can see would never be approved as it has NO TIME on it meaning its pay by phone 24/7. Actual photos of the bay are needed signs on their own are useless.

 

Not different bays, the bays are normal parking bays, the only information about loading only is the sign above which I have shown.

 

Here is pictures of the road, I was parked where the silver golf is parked:

 

[green_and_mean]

I will draft a few points for your appeal when I get back from work but there is a very strong case.

[JimmySpangle]

Now that is all nice and clear you have a 100% case against them.

 

Where you parked there are no signs. So, you walk along the footpath to the sign and comply with the instructions and are told over the phone parking is free after 6:30pm.

 

It is not reasonable to demand a pedestrian walks out into a live carriageway just to read a sign. The loading sign should be vixible from the footpath as well.

[buzby]

Afraid it IS reasonable Jimmy. The sign MUST face the roadway, as the converse is true, if the sign only faced the pavement, it could not be held to apply to the road. Since the vehicle was ON the road, there's no issue of 'walking on a carriageway'.

[JimmySpangle]

Yes there is Buzby. The sign was nowhere near the car. Not the OP's fault. The council could have erected more signs but chose not to. In order to read the sign the OP would have to stop, block the carriageway with his car while he reads the sign and then hope there was still a space left to park in.

 

What about someone in a wheelchair? Blue badge parking is very restricted in this part of London. Would it be reasonable for them to have to wheel themselves out into traffic to read the sign?

 

Nope. I think you have perfect grounds to appeal this.

[buzby]

I'm not talking about a perfect world, just one that is 'reasonable'. Therefore to be the latter the sign must be evident to the passage of those who may have the temerity to actually want to park there. Consideration for pedestrians is NOT a consideration at any time. By all mean, an appeal is worth a shot id you are past the discount period and nothing else to lose, but since the converse of your argument won't stand up - any appeal success would fly in the face of convention.

[djsyxx]

I'm still within the discount period currently I have until the 13th before it doubles in price.