Child Support Agency

[ICY]

Background.

 

My ex announced to me in April 2001 that she was pregant, but I hadnt been with her long, she said the baby might be mine or someone elses, I was a bit surprised at the time, because I didnt think I could have children, this was based on the fact I was with someonoe for about 5 years before this relationship after being in that relationship for about 2 years we decided we would try for a baby with no success we tried for 2 years but never sought medical assistance, she then went on to have a relationship with somebody else after we split and became pregnant fairly quickly, although I believed I couldnt have children I didnt seek any medical advice on this as I found it too embarrassing (part of the reason we split up).

 

Baby was born in December 2001, both myself and my ex went to register the birth, at the registration my ex said that she was mine, and told the registar this, my name went on the birth certificate, I didnt challenge this despite having a doubt in the back of my mind.

 

I then ended up working nights a lot because the money was better and we needed as much as we could get at the time.

In February 2003 she again said she was pregnant, by this time I thought that I must have just been unlucky for the two years trying for a baby in my previous relationship. Again trip to registary registered my name on the brith certificate as father.

 

That relationship broke down in January 2006 because my ex was dropping the girls off at her mothers quite often when I was on nights and would be out drinking either in town or at someones house, and sometimes stayed at a "friends" house, I was getting serious suspicions that she was sleeping with said "friend" a couple of months after we split up a few people told me they knew she was seeing someone behind my back.

I had been getting close someone when things in the relationship were getting rough, we have since got married.

 

When I wasnt working we actually used to go out with this guy, he had been a friend of hers for many years, and never thought he would have done such a thing. As the second girl grow up she began to look more and more like him.

 

Following our split, I used to have the girls for the weekend, I was started to get more concerned about the care of the girls, they started to come to me with bruises and saying the "mummy hits me" they were also always dirty and had a head full of nits I referred the incidents to social services and they investigated, after many case conferences and reports had been done both girls were put on the at risk register, I started a case for sole custody, my ex's response to make allegations that I had abused the girls to take the focus away from herself, she also taught the girls to make comments at the school, these allegations were completely false btw whenever I had the girls my partner was always with me we are always together and everything is done as a family the only time we wernt together was when we were working through the week and obviously I never had the girls until the weekend, I have no inclination to abuse children and do not understand anyone who has, it was a solicitor who rang me and said I couldnt go to collect the girls because there had been allegations, and the my ex would do everything to stop me seeing them.

 

I had to contact the police to report that there was a belief the girls had been abused my ex didnt contact the police to report this, I did so because I had been told they had been abused, I knew I hadnt done this so wanted to know who had, there were investigations done and it turned out there was no evidence whatsoever that either of them had been abused.

 

The long and short of it is following this my ex has not let me see the girls since and said if I try to re instigate my claim for custody she will ensure that my life will never be worth living again as she will telll everyone she comes across that I am a peadophile (sp?) and I would be driven from every house I move to.

 

She then started a relationship with another man who turned out to be violent, the children witnessing this violence regularly, social services raised issue with this but let the girls remain in the environment, she then started a relationship with this mans son behind his back, this is clearly documented in social services paperwork.

 

CSA

 

At sometime in 2006 september i think, the CSA made an attachment of earnings order, due to me moving I didnt know they had tried to contact me, I contacted them immediatly and they said I somehow owed them in the region of £2000. I told them that I wanted a DNA test to be done (I was willing to pay for it) I told them I have no issue what-so-ever of paying up if all was well following the DNA tests. I had doubts of paternity, at the beginning my ex also said she was not 100% sure who the father was, I had been told by other people she had been sleeping with someone else, and the evidence she had slept with her partners son, despite all this the CSA wrote to her questioning paternity, she wrote back saying there was no doubt in her mind, the CSA then wrote back to myself saying there will be no DNA test.

[ICY]

Sorry this is so long, but want to make sure all the info is here.

 

What I need to know is there a way I can legally force the CSA to order a DNA test, I have been paying constantly since the AOE order but I want to know if I should be paying, they also have provided no breakdown of alledged arrears, they have not told me once how much I am supposed to be in arrears by, they only said they want £5 per week towards arrears.

 

unfortunatly i seem to have lost the letters from CSA .

 

I also wrote to my ex requseting a DNA test, I will post up the letters I have sent to CSA and my ex including complaint letters they failed to respond satisfactorily to following me changing job and income amount.

Edited December 2, 2009 by ICY

[ICY]

This is a copy of the letter I sent to CSA in Jan 08 unfortunatly up until this point everything was dealt with by phone, so there is no proof

Dear Sir/Madam

 

I am writing this as an official letter of complaint, out of desperation due to the totally unprofessional way my case has been handled, the bad handling of this case has caused much unnecessary stress and pointless extra cost.

 

I contacted Belfast office by phone on the 12th April 2007 to inform of a change in my wage, which would take effect on the 20th April, I had to go onto part time at work, this cut my wage down by almost £100.00 per week to £99.00 per week, and as such I could not afford to pay the previous set amount of £44.00 per week, I gave a weeks notice of this change to my wage, as that is the only notice I had.

 

When I called initially at 0922 I was immediately put on hold for 12 minutes then cut off, I called back at 0934, and was told to fax details of the new wage amount to the Belfast office, I explained how urgent this was, as in a weeks time my wage would be cut and the Child Support payments, if left at the current amount, were almost half of my new wage this would obviously leave me in a position that I could not afford to be in, I was told that it would be re-assessed and should be sorted in the next week, I was assured there was nothing to worry about, I took this assurance in good faith.

 

I called back again on the 13th April to check if the fax had been received at the correct department, but apparently the fax could not be found, I was then told to resend the fax, which I did, on the 16th I again called back to check arrival to make sure it had gone through ok, I was told that the information still had not been received, this happened again on the 17th, and twice on the 18th, and on three of the four occasions I was told to mark the fax for attention of the individual I was calling, and it would be sorted for me.

 

On the 16th when I rung the Belfast office to check if there was any progress, I was told the fax I sent had not been received despite me confirming the fax number I sent it to, I was asked to resend the fax and the second it was received I would be called back on the phone number I gave. This call never arrived, so I again called back again on the 17th, to be told the same thing, ie; resend the fax as it had not arrived, this time marking FAO Julie and when Julie got it she would call me, again this call never came this was repeated again twice on the 18th April and again there was no phone call.

 

On the 19th April, the day before payment had been due to be taken from my bank account, I rang Belfast again to find out what new amount I was to pay so I could alter my standing order, I was told they don’t know where the fax is, and said it has never been received, despite me sending the fax 6 times, but yet I was still being told that no fax had been received, I even sent the last 4 fax’s from 2 different fax machines to ensure they arrived.

 

I said I was going to have to cancel the direct debit as I could not afford for almost 50% of my wage to be taken, and the agency had failed to re-assess my case, I was told that I had to make the payments of some amount, I tried explaining how much hardship it would cost to keep the payments on the same level, but was treated with total disregard to my situation, and when asked how much I should change it to, the person I was speaking to failed to suggest a payment amount and simply said you will need to keep paying, I took the step to reduce the weekly amount I was paying to £10.00 per week, I was advised that I would have to send wage slips, I tried to explain that I don’t have wage slips yet, as the wage change didn’t take effect until the 20th April.

Incidentally, I have recently found out that according to the CSA website I should be paying £5.00 per week as my weekly wage is £99.28 I would have expected to be told this information on the phone at the time.

 

After I changed the amount of the payment I decided to leave the payment at £10.00 per week until I was contacted as I was not willing to keep calling each day at cost to me, just to be ignored.

 

On a date currently unknown my employer was written to requesting details of my wage, my employer responded by return with details showing my wage to be £99.28, to date this has not been acted upon.

 

Despite being told numerous time my wage was now £99.28 I was horrified to find that I received a letter dated 22nd June saying that my payments had been re-assessed and my payments are not to change from the level they were (£44.00), these calculations have been made using incorrect amounts as you have calculated on my wage as being £197.71 I had told the agency many times including sending wage slips in which went missing sending copies which apparently never arrived, and faxes mysteriously going missing numerous times despite checking, double checking and then triple checking the fax number, to make certain you got all the information, I am amazed that this many faxes can simply be lost, this shows complete incompetence and I am concerned as to where my information has gone.

 

On 28th June I called Belfast office again, to inform the agency that an incorrect calculation had been made, to be told my file couldn’t be found and someone would call me back in the next 48 hrs, to date I still have not had this call some 8 months later.

 

On the 16th January 2008 I received a phone call from someone at Belfast offices wanting to know why I wasn’t paying the full amount due of £44.00, I tried to explain that the calculations were incorrect, and I was still awaiting this matter to be sorted out, I wasn’t at home at the time of this call and as such I didn’t have the information to hand, the caller then agreed to phone me on the 17th January around 10am. This call still hasn’t arrived over 3 weeks later, I am amazed that a professional organisation can treat people with such disregard and disrespect.

 

The completely unprofessional attitude and what I see as the incapability of your staff to perform basic admin duties, has caused me extra expense with the unnecessary phone calls, and fax costs, however more importantly I have also been caused a lot of undue stress, as I was extremely concerned I was going to not have enough money to live on, I find the whole system has failed me completely.

 

I demand my wage be re-assessed properly using the wage I informed you about 10 months ago and which my employer has informed you about.

 

I am currently requesting copies of all phone bills to show the calls and faxes have been made and will be able to show all the calls I have made and the faxes I have sent.

 

In addition, I wish to request further information as to how to arrange a DNA test to prove parentage (obviously this is something I am willing to pay for), as the mother, when XXXXXX was born, said she didn’t know if I was the father or not, at the time I kept asking the mother for a DNA test however she never agreed to this despite not being sure I was actually the father. I also have a strong belief that the mother had an affair while with me the result of this affair is XXXXXXX, the person I believe she had an affair with bears a very strong resemblance to XXXXXX. This is made more likely by the fact I have written evidence she has since had an affair with her partners son.

 

If I am not the father of these 2 children, as I currently believe is the case, I fail to see how I can be requested to pay for them and will be asking for repayment of monies I have already paid, however if they are my children then I am perfectly willing to ensure payments are kept up, however the payments do need to be sorted out properly.

 

I await a response to this letter within 14 days of receipt.

 

 

 

Yours Faithfully

[ICY]

Next letter to CSA, Sadly have lost their reply to above letter

 

Dear Mrs

I write in response to your letter dated 12th March 2008.

I know for certain that I faxed Belfast offices on numerous occasions, as well as phoning daily, I am still waiting for copies of phone bills which proves this point, as and when I receive these bills, I shall be forwarding them to you to prove that I am indeed telling the truth. I am quite frankly amazed that so much information I have sent in has gone missing, and am rather concerned that despite numerous faxes, and daily phone calls made from myself to Belfast office, there is still no record of any contact being made.

I have enclosed copies of requested payslips, I find it hard to believe that there is no record of my employment with HMRC I have been worked for XXXXXX since July 2006.

These payslips are my employer’s copies and we will need these to be returned asap.

I have written a letter to XXXXXXX requesting DNA testing, if she still refuses to do this, then I will apply via the courts. I know for a fact, as does XXXXXXX that there are doubts as to who is the father of the children.

Yours

[ICY]

Letter to my ex which received no reply

 

As you will be aware I recently contacted the Child Support Agency, as I require proof that XXXX and XXXXXX are my children, you responded to the Child Support Agency stating that you have no doubts that I am the father, however we both know this is not true, doubts are there, and have been since 2001 before XXXXX was even born, all I want is everyone to be treat fairly, and lying to people is not an example of treating people fairly.

I would like you to think back to 2001 when you were pregnant with XXXXX, and the conversations we had at the time, when you said that I may not have been XXXXX dad, there were quite a few of these conversations, you will be aware that you weren’t sure who it was, and only said that it could be either me or somebody quite a bit older, you never revealed who else you thought may have been the father, I never knew who it was and quite frankly I had no desire to know. You should remember that at the time I said that I need to know for sure if I was the father or not, we both agreed that it will make no difference whether I was or was not XXXXXXXXX's biological father, but that it is very important to know the facts.

You will also remember that at this time we discussed arranging a DNA test once she was born, as I stated at the time I would feel more comfortable knowing for certain rather than wondering, this you agreed to. Once XXXXXXX was born this only got talked about a couple of times, including one occasion which I remember vividly where we agreed that we would leave it for the time being, but that it still needed doing. Then a couple of weeks after this we agreed that we couldn’t really afford it at the current time, as the tests are very expensive.

It is my belief that you had been having sex with someone else while you were with me and I was out at work, it is for this reason and the doubts about who’s XXXX’s biological father that I also want proof of XXXXXXX's parentage too, I need to know one way or the other for certain as to who is the father of the girls, and if you are so adamant that this is me then I fail to see what logical reason you have for refusing it to be proved by agreeing to completing a DNA test, you have absolutely nothing to lose, however your refusal to carry out the test, shows to me that you think there is something to hide, and only goes to further reinforce my belief.

It has already been proved that you sleep with people when you are with somebody else, so why should I believe you haven’t done the same thing to me, I would have much more respect for you if you were honest to me about it.

The tests are very simple and only involve taking of a mouth swab, this is then analyzed and results sent out. There is no taking of blood samples or pulling out hair as used to be the case.

There is also no cost to you, as I will be paying for the tests, so I therefore see no logical explanation in refusing these tests. If you do not agree to undertake DNA testing then I will go via the courts and request a judge to order the tests are completed, the girls have a right to know for certain who there parents are, as do I, it is fair all round to ensure there is no doubts.

The following quote is direct from the County Courts information and reinforces what I have stated in this letter.

Courts have a statutory power to direct a scientific test to ascertain the parentage of a child under section 20 of the Family Law Reform Act 1969.

The courts usually only find it necessary to use that power when one party

does not want testing to be done. If the court does make a "Section 20 direction" then they must choose a tester from a list of accredited bodies that we maintain.

Do we really need to go down the court route? It is not necessary and can be avoided by simply agreeing to take part in the DNA test, there will be no cost to yourself, and the only organising you would have, would be to arrange an appointment to have the test carried out, if you require transport costs to attend this meeting then I am fully prepared to send you payment prior to the appointment. I think my request is extremely reasonable, and it is my belief that you have no reasonable grounds for refusal, and as I have already shown in this letter, I have good grounds for doubting whether I am the girl’s father or not. I want the result to show I am the father I am just not so sure it will.

Please respond by post informing me of your intentions. I have included a pre paid envelope to reply to me, I request a response no later then 4pm Wednesday the 21st May 2008 if no response is received by this time then an application will be made to the court system for an order to determine parentage, a copy of this letter will be included in the court application to show I have tried to settle this matter in a fair and amicable manner.

For avoidance of doubt please be aware I have every intention of following through what I have said, and I am ready to submit court papers if necessary. I am being completely reasonable in my request. This letter is sent registered delivery, which is a guaranteed delivery service and records proof of delivery by signature, I will also be retaining this proof of delivery to show to the courts as proof you have received this letter.

[ICY]

I did say I would be taking it via courts, but can I not force the CSA to instruct the tests.

[ErikaPNP]

The reason they will not arrange the tests is because you are named on the birth certificate as the father. When this is the case, the CSA do not have to arrange a DNA test. The only way you can sort this is for her to agree to it or to get a court order for a DNA test.

[ICY]

Thats hardly fair though is it, its isnt going to cost them anything, I simply want justice, without having to pay for the courts on top of the test

[ErikaPNP]

The CSA call this "presumed parentage", as you originally "agreed" to being the father. In order for your name to appear on the birth certificate as you were unmarried at the time, you would have to have been present at the time of registration to agree that you were the father or the children. If you had disputed this at the time of registering the births, the registrar would not have been in a position to allow your name to appear as the father. Thus the CSA have their "presumed parentage", and are entitled to assess maintenance.

 

After maintenacnce has been assessed and there is a dispute about parentage, as is the case here, the responsibility falls to the person denying parentage to provide evidence that they are not the parent. The CSA can only accept "conclusive evidence" that the named father is not the father. Conclusive evidence comes in the form of a DNA test result or a declaration of the courts of non-parentage.

 

If you can provide this evidence to them, they will refund all your payments back to the date when they first received information from you telling them that you were not the parent - they won't backdate beyond this date.

 

To go to court, you will need to apply for a delaration of non parentage. The courts will usually order a DNA test, and then if the results show you not to be the father, they would issue a declaration of non parentage which you would then forward to the CSA to get your refund.

 

Whether it is fair or not (And I can see where you are coming from, certainly) isn't going to help you, or change the situation. This is what you would have to do to sort this out. You may be able to apply for court costs against the mother if it is proven you aren't the parent.

[ICY]

OK thanks for the very imformative reply, anyone know how much would it cost to take it to court, and for the testing ?

[ICY]

Also would I need to get a solicitor involved, or would it suffice for me to attend on my own, it seems a simple thing I am asking for, and would my ex have to be there or can the judge send an order out, there have been threats of violence and intimidation from her family previously?

 

Think I might also actually SAR the CSA to see what they have on me, I want details of when assesments were made and how much for, they say I owe them arrears but have never told me how much despite me asking a few times when I have rung them up.

 

Would a judge have any valid reason not to order a test.

[ICY]

Could anyone answer the questions above

 

[ICY]

Bump

[ICY]

Oh come on, surely someone must be able to give me some advices

[ICY]

B

U

M

P

[Zara33]

OK thanks for the very imformative reply, anyone know how much would it cost to take it to court, and for the testing ?

Does a DNA test cost anything?

 

Yes. The full fee for testing three people (two adults and one child) is £281.05.

If the person named as the parent of the child pays when they return their appointment form, they can pay a discounted rate available through Cellmark, a company we use to carry out DNA tests. Currently, the discounted rate is £215.69. These costs may change from time to time. If you would like to check the current costs, you can phone us or write to us using the phone number or address at the top of the letter we have sent you to ask you to arrange a DNA test. No part of the money goes to the CSA.

Dispute process - Child Support Agency

[Zara33]

Erika is correct, the onus is on you to prove that you are not the father to these children, as far as the CSA are concerned at the minute you declared parentage when you signed the birth certificates.

[davey0001]

Yes - you've found the huge catch 22 in the system.

 

Basically, if you signed the Birth Certificate then legally you have agreed that the child (or children) are yours.

 

Of course you have absolutely no way of knowing this - only the Mother will have an idea of whether this is true. But of course relationships don't work like this. When you've just had a baby in a relationship you aren't about to start demanding a DNA test, and of course evidence that you aren't the Father perhaps was not available to you at the time of the signing of the Birth Certificate anyway.

 

So the CSA will start taking payments regardless of DNA test and you won't be able to get a Paternity test unless the Mother agrees.

 

In my case I of course signed the birth certificate. We were happily in a long term relationship and I was fully expecting us to get married, have more kids - basically do the standard family dream thing that most of us think we're signing up for.

 

6 months later I was thrown out of the house and 12 months after that she blocked access to our son. I haven't seen him now for 4 and half years. She refuses all contact, refuses DNA, ignores letters - the full treatment basically.

 

She's quite happy to take the £450 a month out of my bank account isn't she? yes she is.

 

With that sort of bill hanging over you for the next 12 years (estimated at roughly £100,000) you'd think I'd have some recourse for some DEFINITIVE PROOF that I am the father - but no, I have no such right.

 

Basically whilst my ex refuses a DNA for whatever reason (personal upset - don't make me laugh) I have to keep on paying.

 

This seems extremely unjust - and of course it is - but this is because you're thinking that the system is there to provide justice - and of course it isn't. If some justice comes along with some of the decisions then so be it - but basically the instruction is to ensure that SOMEONE is paying and NOT THE STATE.

 

The last thing the state wants is for Fathers to be able to force Paternity tests.. why?? Because those us who can pay are same types of blokes who will pay. The state doesn't want me to find out that in fact my son was fathered by some complete waste of space one night stand never going to and never will be able to pay child support. They'd much rather I did it instead. So they put obstacles in place to prevent me finding out.

 

Personally I think it is against my human rights not to be able to seek definitive proof of parentage whilst being forced via stoppage on earnings to pay substantial amounts to my ex. There is no equity in this arrangement. It clearly goes against even basic principles of law such as Cui Bono - Who Benefits?

 

So getting back to start... you can't stop CSA unless you can prove that you aren't the Father. You can only prove that you aren't the father by submitting a valid DNA test. You can only get a valid DNA test if the mother agrees. If there is any chance that you aren't the real father then she won't.

 

So if you request a DNA test and she agrees, then you'll get test but won't need one - if she refuses then you won't get the test when it's the one thing you absolutely need

 

Classic Catch 22.

 

You MUST register your question of paternity with the CSA immediately so that perhaps when you see your child in 18 years time and get a DNA test done then - if its negative then they will owe you a RUCK OF CASH.

[davey0001]

Just to clarify my last statement on my previous post...

 

I've just rung the CSA, who were as helpful and charming as ever, to ask about future DNA test and repayment of CSA.

 

I was just told that I would be entitled to full repayment for the entire claim - as long as the case was still open!!!

 

I'm not entirely sure what this means, and neither did the person I was speaking to, but my interpretation (and I am NOT A SOLICITOR) is that if the case is closed, e.g. my 'son' turns 16 and does not enter higher education, then if I subsequently meet him when he's 18 and then get a negative DNA result then I won't be entitled to get my money back.

 

So that's an extra Catch 22 to consider.

 

Aint the CSA legislation great?!

[ErikaPNP]

As previously stated, a court can order a DNA test be performed. If a court order is granted, the mother has to comply with this. Failure to do so will be considered a contempt of court.