Train ticket fine

[diz79]

Went to work today, had to get overground to London Bridge. Qued for ticket machine 10 mins person before me then tells me card bit not working. Missed one train, next 2 are delayed big que at ticket office. I jump on next train get to London Bridge, walk to where you have to pay to buy a ticket, while lining up a ticket guy asks me if I have a ticket, I explain the situation he still says he has to fine me even though Im queing up to pay for the ticket. I refuse at first to pay anything we argue for a while he then ask ffor info I dont give him anything but do write down my name and address, I say I refuse to pay, he says I must pay something then threatens me with a caution, pointing at the police man. I pay 2 pound as already running late and refuse to que up again to by a ticket. Then leave and go buy the ticket I originally was gonna buy. Is this lawful? Im completely disgusted at how I have been treated.

 

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks

[MARTIN3030]

Ok moved here-I agree is best place.

[Old-CodJA]

It seems likely that you may have had a legitimate reason to board the train without a ticket under the terms of the TOC's 'Passenger Charter', but it must be remembered that does not negate the law in respect of obligation to pay the fare due at the first opportunity.

 

Before answering your query in more detail I'd like to know at which station you started your journey?

[diz79]

Queens road peckham station.

[diz79]

Also on the fine it says, I have to pay at least the cost of the train fare I only paid £2 im sure a single is £2 60, so does this make the fine obsolete

[Old-CodJA]

There are full pre-purchase facilities at Queens Road Peckham and these will be computer monitored for availability so the TOC can see whether queueing times were excessive. Self-service machines also record faults so if the card slot was u/s this will be recorded

 

Where you have failed is in both refusing to pay the fare due and in not ensuring that you paid at least the single fare for your journey before leaving the station

 

The full fare is due at the time of travel and not later. At the very latest this is when the traveller reaches his or her destination. (Bremme v Dubery (1964))

 

You may make a complaint that there were problems at the station and this will be investigated, but equally, you may well be reported for having travelled without a vaild ticket, refusing to pay the fare due and failing to do so when given the opportunity.

[blitz]

Cod he did try to pay for a ticket at the earliest opportunity. He was queueing up at the time when a ticket inspector questioned him and presented a fine.

[Old-CodJA]

Cod he did try to pay for a ticket at the earliest opportunity. He was queueing up at the time when a ticket inspector questioned him and presented a fine.

 

I had noted that, but if you read the OP again you will see the relevence. this bit is important:

 

'I refuse at first to pay anything we argue for a while he then ask ffor info I dont give him anything but do write down my name and address, I say I refuse to pay, he says I must pay something then threatens me with a caution, pointing at the police man. I pay 2 pound as already running late and refuse to que up again to by a ticket'

 

The OP refused to pay, and then only paid a part of the actual fare due having made the journey.

 

He (or she) didn't help themselves. If the full single fare had been paid, the TOC couldn't have taken any further action, but in refusing to pay and then failing to pay the single fare on demand, the way is open for the TOC to continue with a charge.

[diz79]

I refused to pay the fine not the fare I was happy to pay this. That was the whole point of being in the que wasn't it? I was being given the fine whilst in the que he didnt give me an opportunity to pay for the ticket just an out right fine.

 

Ive since appealed and gone on holiday come back to have to letters from revenue protection support service first saying I must pay £18 even tho I have appealed (this doesent make sense) second now £38 threatend with criminal proceedings. Surely if you appeal you dont have to pay anything if you dont agree with it, but they are demanding money regardless.

 

Any help would be greatly recieved.

 

Thanks

[Old-CodJA]

I refused to pay the fine not the fare I was happy to pay this. That was the whole point of being in the que wasn't it? I was being given the fine whilst in the que he didnt give me an opportunity to pay for the ticket just an out right fine.

 

Ive since appealed and gone on holiday come back to have to letters from revenue protection support service first saying I must pay £18 even tho I have appealed (this doesent make sense) second now £38 threatend with criminal proceedings. Surely if you appeal you dont have to pay anything if you dont agree with it, but they are demanding money regardless.

 

Any help would be greatly recieved.

 

Thanks

 

No, you don't have nothing to pay just because you have appealed.

 

You would only have nothing to pay if your appeal was accepted.

 

If your appeal was not accepted, as appears to be the case because you have received a demand for payment, then the liability for the Penalty Fare remains.

 

Subsequently, you have failed to discharge that liability and they have added their surcharge, which they notified you of in the letter saying that you owed £18

 

You could write to the Independent Penalty Fares Appeals Service, but I wouldn't hold out much hope there either.

 

Your quote here is the key bit that gives the TOC grounds to go further with this:

 

I only paid £2 im sure a single is £2 60, so does this make the fine obsolete

 

Answer, No. By your own admission, you failed to pay the single fare due and therefore have given the TOC grounds to proceed with further action.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[diz79]

The letter I recieved said regardless of an appeal I still have to pay . This letter is from revenue protection support service an out sourced company who it seems are ony interested in claiming money off you. I have recieved no corespondence from the train service regarding my appeal yet only an email confirming this.

 

An appeal is surely an appeal and no monies are taken until the process is finalised.

 

This was down to the ticket man how much I paid. I went and bought a travelcard right after, which Is what I was orignally queing up to get so I did infact pay for my ticket.

 

Is there anywhere I can right a complaint not just a rail network someone higher? I guess Boris, any ideas?

 

It looks as though due to this system I will just end up paying as I seem to waste a lot of time trying to sort this out which I guess is half of there ploy. If I hadn't of had to get to work I would have stayed and sorted this out there and then, I paid the £2 in order to just go or as it seems I would have got a caution, a load of rubbish I have since found out. I was honestly queing up to buy a ticket, which I did eventually do and now due to the system Im paying over £50 for a £6 journey, something is extremely wrong I believe. People make mistake human error happens trains are late, machines break down. This ticket man could have used a little discression and maybe I wouldn't be here today. I dont believe he is the only one that would have done this either, and like me and lots of others the fines get paid, the ticket man gets his bonus. And we all just fall in line really makes me sick at the society we live in in London theres no room for error.

 

Im very disapointed in this situation

 

Thanks for all your help

[Old-CodJA]

The letter I recieved said regardless of an appeal I still have to pay . This letter is from revenue protection support service an out sourced company who it seems are ony interested in claiming money off you. I have recieved no corespondence from the train service regarding my appeal yet only an email confirming this.

 

An appeal is surely an appeal and no monies are taken until the process is finalised.

 

This was down to the ticket man how much I paid. I went and bought a travelcard right after, which Is what I was orignally queing up to get so I did infact pay for my ticket.

 

Is there anywhere I can right a complaint not just a rail network someone higher? I guess Boris, any ideas?

 

It looks as though due to this system I will just end up paying as I seem to waste a lot of time trying to sort this out which I guess is half of there ploy. If I hadn't of had to get to work I would have stayed and sorted this out there and then, I paid the £2 in order to just go or as it seems I would have got a caution, a load of rubbish I have since found out. I was honestly queing up to buy a ticket, which I did eventually do and now due to the system Im paying over £50 for a £6 journey, something is extremely wrong I believe. People make mistake human error happens trains are late, machines break down. This ticket man could have used a little discression and maybe I wouldn't be here today. I dont believe he is the only one that would have done this either, and like me and lots of others the fines get paid, the ticket man gets his bonus. And we all just fall in line really makes me sick at the society we live in in London theres no room for error.

 

Im very disapointed in this situation

 

Thanks for all your help

 

Sorry if it seems harsh, but you refusal to pay (your words) left the inspector no choice but to submit a report, in this case, via a penalty fare notice.

 

The crux of the case for appeal is whether there was a reasonable time allowed by you to get a ticket and whether or not you had queued for an unreasonable amount of time before boarding the train without a ticket, but as I said before, that does not negate your liability to pay the full proper single fare for the journey that you had made.

 

National Rail Penalty Fare Notices are not a matter that comes under Boris's remit. That's what the Independent Penalty Fares Appeals Service is for.

 

Your original posting was made on 1st December and it says that was the date of travel on which you were issued the penalty notice. The printed notice gives 21 days for you to appeal or pay so either had to be done before 23rd December. It seems that you have had a response advising that your appeal was not accepted and that a charge is due.

 

On 1st December you had not paid the single fare due at the time of travel. By your own admission you then refused to pay the sum demanded. Eventually, you paid only £2.00 of the £2.60 fare due for the journey to the person who asked you to pay. The legal position is that the full fare is due at the time of travel and at the latest, when the passenger arrives at his final destination.

 

There is a Byelaw offence of being on a train without showing a ticket on demand and this can be charged for hearing by a Court though the TOC will only usually proceed if pre-purchase facilities were available at the start of the journey. It is easy for the TOC to check the for machine faults and queueing times from records held and these should have been checked before answering your appeal.

 

Refusing to pay a fare, or paying a lesser fare might lead to a more serious charge.

 

You should have ensured that you paid at least the full single fare of £2.60 and if you had done so the TOC could not allege non-payment of the correct fare due. You could then have contested the issue of the penalty notice, saying that you refuse to pay it on the grounds that you complied with Section 5 of The Regulation of Railways Act (1889) in that you paid the single fare due on demand.

 

Write to IPFAS

Edited January 20, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[diz79]

I was queing up to buy a travelcard when he asked me if I had a ticket. I dont think you understand the situation maybe you should read from the start. I had full intention to pay. There is no argument with that. I refused to pay the penalty not the ticket.

 

The first letter recieved demanding the other £18 was recieved within the 21 days after I had made an appeal, stating I had to pay regardless of the fact I had made an appeal (I was on holiday when this came and for the 2nd one) I made the appeal before I left thinking there would be no letter at least for 21 days stating either I had to pay or not.

 

A very strange system indeed

[Old-CodJA]

I was queing up to buy a travelcard when he asked me if I had a ticket. I dont think you understand the situation maybe you should read from the start. I had full intention to pay. There is no argument with that. I refused to pay the penalty not the ticket.

 

The first letter recieved demanding the other £18 was recieved within the 21 days after I had made an appeal, stating I had to pay regardless of the fact I had made an appeal (I was on holiday when this came and for the 2nd one) I made the appeal before I left thinking there would be no letter at least for 21 days stating either I had to pay or not.

 

A very strange system indeed

 

Well, I hope that you take this in the spirit that it is intended. I certainly do understand your explanation and having been involved in this field for so long as an RPI right at the birth of the penalty fare system and since then in revenue enforcement and prosecutions, I have looked at your post from all of these levels.

 

I apologise if you find this too simplistic or, patronising in any way, but I hope a little more explanation from the beginning might help.

 

Firstly, intent is not the issue at this point. You were issued a Penalty Fare Notice for being in a controlled ticket area and unable to show a valid ticket. That is a strict liability requirement under Railway Byelaw.

 

Your post explains that you were at Queens Road Peckham station, and after queueing at the end of the subway to use the self-service machine for a while you learned that the machine would not accept your card so you turned right and went up the 16 stairs to find a queue at the booking office window and you decided to board a train without obtaining a valid ticket.

 

You do not mention attempting to seek out any staff on the train to pay your fare to and I fully understand that morning peak services may be very busy in any case. On arrival at London Bridge, you did not mention checking to see if there was member of staff on the train in order to pay your fare, but went toward the exit barriers from the station platforms and as is often the case, a ticket check was taking place. You joined a queue intending to offer a fare.

 

An Inspector saw you queueing and asked you why you did not have a ticket and you gave your explanation. The Inspector did not accept your explanation and he did not have to if he considered that you had boarded without paying and without good reason.

 

Your post makes clear that you were not given authority to board without a ticket at Queens Road, but you chose to do so because you decided that you had waited long enough.

 

From your explanation, it seems that the Inspector advised you that he would issue a £20 Penalty Fare Notice and you initially refused to accept this statutory notice. The Penalty Fare is fixed by the DoT as a minimum of £20, but allows you an opportunity to appeal.

 

I cannot comment on actual conversation of course, but from your post it seems clear that for whatever reason, the Inspector referred to a nearby Police Officer who was observing the ticket check and eventually you were issued with a penalty fare notice. You also paid £2.00 cash and that will have been recorded on the notice, but this was less than the single fare due.

 

The Penalty Notice has on it, printed advice that the person that it is issued to must either, pay or appeal within 21 days of issue. You say that you appealed within the 21 days and subsequently, you received a letter advising that you must pay £18.00

 

That is clearly correct. You appealed within 21 days. Your appeal was rejected and the letter was sent to you advising that fact that the balance of £18 of the original £20 penalty is due.

 

That letter would also have advised you that the company would apply a late payment surcharge if you failed to pay by the date specified. You appear not to have paid or responded further and went on holiday, returning to find a further letter demanding payment of the £18 plus the surcharge that had been advised to you in the first letter. This was because the deadline set in that letter had passed whilst you were away.

 

When you appealed, the TOC should have investigated your claim and made the decision on your appeal based on the facts available to them.

 

At Queens Road station the area through the subway and up the stairs to the booking office is quite compact. There are CCTV cameras at all stations and by checking the station ticket machine record and checking with the staff record, they will be able to show whether queueing times were excessive or not. There will also be the Inspector's note of your exchange at London Bridge and any comment from the Police if they were involved. The decision to reject or grant your appeal should have taken into account the result of these factors.

 

From your posting the position is this:

 

1. You boarded a train in breach of Railway Byelaws

 

2. You were correctly issued a Penalty Notice, which you appealed unsuccesfuly and have not paid within the period of time allowed.

 

3. You had not paid the correct fare due before travelling and still have not done so. It might seem extreme, but the TOC could proceed to issue a Summons if that does not alter.

 

I am not saying that I believe you should not raise further appeal, but I have explained the process.

 

If you are not satisfied, then write to IPFAS as soon as possible or at the very least ask the TOC for a printed copy of the assessment and reasons for rejection of your original appeal.

 

I have personal views about IPFAS, but if you do not use the process open to you, then the TOC could proceed to further action if they want

 

You could write to London Travelwatch, Passenger Focus and all the other watchdog type organisations, but none of them have the authority to overturn the TOC's decision. They can only make respresentations if they feel you have a case.

 

If the TOC can show that facilities were available to you and queueing was not excessive, that you chose to board without authority and failed to co-operate in any way, then you will be best advised to pay.

 

You could do nothing, but again I do not make any personal observation. Just don't be surprised if doing nothing results in receipt of a Summons.

 

Good Luck

Edited January 22, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[RPI]

The fare due was a £20 penalty fare, so the full £20 is payable straight away, refusal to pay or accept the penalty fare is refusal to pay the fare due at the time.

[Old-CodJA]

The fare due was a £20 penalty fare, so the full £20 is payable straight away, refusal to pay or accept the penalty fare is refusal to pay the fare due at the time.

 

Technically correct, but the TOC cannot prosecute under the Byelaw or RRA legislations citing the £20 PF as the fare owed. That is a civil remedy

 

If they wish to proceed further, the unpaid single fare is the better bet. The traveller has still failed to pay the rail fare due.

[diz79]

The system is a complete joke, there is no room for error, people are judged as criminals. Its completely wrong and the fact you guys seem to agree with it is crazy.

 

I havent once recieved a letter indicating a rejection of an appeal but they still issue out more charges, and to charge £20 for one letter a stamp an A4 piece of paper, oh yeah someone has to print it off and put the letter in an envelpoe. Scandalous and the more this is accpeted the more it will continue.

 

What happend to been able to board a train and purchase a ticket on there. What happened to that trust. What happened to human error and discretion, which I was clearly not shown.

 

The bottom line is I wasn't running away I wasn't trying to avoid paying the fair, I was ready and willing to pay for the fair, but some jobsworth was taking advantage of his situation. And to be threatend with a police caution is criminal in its self.

 

If anyone accepts this as how you should treat another human being, I feel sorry you.

[Old-CodJA]

What happend to been able to board a train and purchase a ticket on there. What happened to that trust. What happened to human error and discretion, which I was clearly not shown.

 

The bottom line is I wasn't running away I wasn't trying to avoid paying the fair, I was ready and willing to pay for the fair, but some jobsworth was taking advantage of his situation. And to be threatend with a police caution is criminal in its self.

 

If anyone accepts this as how you should treat another human being, I feel sorry you.

 

No-one pretends that the process is perfect and it has to be recognised that there are two sides to every story, but legislation is formulated to deal with the majority of situations. That's what happens in a democracy.

 

You ask what happened to trust? Well whilst the vast majority of people, around 95% of rail travellers, are decent, honest, law-abiding individuals, who can be trusted and also trust others, a growing minority persist in selfish and dishonest activity.

 

What happened is that the trust put in people to pay their correct fare has been abused and abused and abused and continues to be abused.

 

Since access gates staffed full time were done away with in the mid-twentieth century, the habit of getting on a train and paying only if asked to do so has always happened, but it continues to grow as a proportion of lost revenue.

 

We've heard all the excuses time and time again. It is amazing how many people believe it 'was always the rail company's fault' that they got up late and arrived without time to pay.

 

"The machine was broken or the ticket office was closed" when the guy sitting next to you has a ticket from the same station always makes inspectors smile inwardly. The excuses are legion - one of these days I'll write a book, but doubt I'll live long enough to finish it!

 

In 1989 the then government and British Rail introduced a penalty fare process, but people continue to abuse the trust even now. Consequently an even harder line is taken by many rail operators, but your original post asks the question 'is this lawful?' The answer is 'Yes'.

 

We all accept that there are infrastructure failures in some cases and the Penalty Fare process allows for that. It is the appeal procedure, which it seems did not accept your claim because there were facilities for you to buy a ticket and any delay did not result in a waiving of the penalty in accordance with passenger charter guidelines.

 

What happened in your case? Your own posting makes it clear. Your post advises that were told that you would be issued a Penalty Notice and why.

 

You make clear that you did not wish to accept this, you didn't want to co-operate with the system put in place to resolve such issues. Why?

What is it that singles you out as someone to whom the rules don't apply?

 

I'd like to see the inspector and the Police Officers versions of this exchange and the CCTV coverage, but it seems the process has been followed as an appeal has been assessed. Maybe something was missed.

 

If you are still not happy and genuinely believe that:

 

1. you did everything in your power to comply with the need to pay your fare before boarding any train, (which still hasn't been paid according to your post)

2. that you genuinely could not get a ticket

4. that a wait for the next train was excessively long (as defined by the charter pledges)

3. that you co-operated fully with the rail staff at the barrier (and paid the correct single fare due.),

 

If you have already tried the Independent Appeals Service, PO Box 212 Petersfield GU32 9BQ, then you could write a strongly worded complaint to TfL's Commissioner for Surface Transport and see what response that achieves.

 

Good luck

Edited January 30, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[SRPO]

Penalty fares are not issued to fare evaders, they are issued to people who did not have a reasonable excuse for failing to have a valid ticket.

Fare evaders are reported for prosecution, and if a person refuses to accept the offer of the penalty fare civil remedy they are reported also, although they may be given another chance to pay the penalty + an admin fee later.

[SRPO]

Dupe . pls delete.

[daygirl13]

Slightly different situation for us - got letter from IRCAS (body that collects penalty fares for train companies) saying our son travelled on a train on 1st January without a ticket, was issued with a penalty fare notice, has not paid or appealed so now we owe £20 plus £30 admin fee! This is the first any of us have heard of it- including our son who never even uses the train line in question! How have we received a reminder letter when we got none of the previous communication, and how did they get our address when it wasn't him and they didn't get his correct name? Is someone giving a false name and address and if so how did they arrive at us? Also the letter was addressed to parent/guardian of master ......... when our son is over 18 - so it clearly wasn't an adult they caught!

[Old-CodJA]

Penalty fares are not issued to fare evaders, they are issued to people who did not have a reasonable excuse for failing to have a valid ticket.

Fare evaders are reported for prosecution, and if a person refuses to accept the offer of the penalty fare civil remedy they are reported also, although they may be given another chance to pay the penalty + an admin fee later.

 

Yes, I agree that Penalty Fares should NOT be used as a tool to deal with deliberate fare evasion.

 

That is not what it was designed for. It is as much an educational tool as it is a penalty, but inevitably many matters that could have been reported as 'breach of Byelaw' or even, 'intent to avoid' also find staff issuing Penalty Notices.

 

With crowded rush-hour trains, travellers with financial difficulties and a generally pressured atmosphere with everyone in such a hurry to do everything these days, that is an inevitable consequence of the system as it stands.

 

Dealing with many of these matters each day, I fully understand why some staff see issuing a Penalty Notice as an easy option when an opportunist fare evasion case might have been reported under current legislation.

 

That doesn't make it right, but it is understandable.

[Old-CodJA]

Slightly different situation for us - got letter from IRCAS (body that collects penalty fares for train companies) saying our son travelled on a train on 1st January without a ticket, was issued with a penalty fare notice, has not paid or appealed so now we owe £20 plus £30 admin fee! This is the first any of us have heard of it- including our son who never even uses the train line in question! How have we received a reminder letter when we got none of the previous communication, and how did they get our address when it wasn't him and they didn't get his correct name? Is someone giving a false name and address and if so how did they arrive at us? Also the letter was addressed to parent/guardian of master ......... when our son is over 18 - so it clearly wasn't an adult they caught!

 

A traveller appears to have given your son's name and address details. The traveller will have been handed the Penalty Fare Notice, which had all the details printed on it. When issued & where, day, date, time, how much to pay and when it must be paid or appealed by.

 

Some ID checks should have been made at the time and as this is less than a month since the original event, and depending on where the incident took place, there may be some CCTV footage available to the rail company through BTP.

 

The details used to identity the traveller will have been noted by the person issuing the Penalty Notice.

 

If your son is over 18 he must write and explain that it wasn't him, signing that declaration and it will be helpful to send evidence of where he was at the time if possible. For example; a note from his employer or a college attendance record or the like.

[daygirl13]

Thanks - yes I have already written to them explaining that it couldn't have been our son; unfortunately, as it was January 1st, he was at home in bed, then at a friend's house. The friend's parents are happy to confirm this, but of course my communication so far has only been with the revenue collector - I'm waiting to be referred back to the relevant authority once they receive my letter saying I have no intention of paying. To complicate things further, our son is at University, but the letter came to our home address, so he hasn't even seen it!

[timbo58]

On the subject of the letters from RPSS ltd:

This is a PRIVATE organisation used by many tocs etc to chase payments owed: they get 90%(?) of the total just for recovering this money, and are highly professional at doing it!

 

As the original poster has found they will keep adding charges every time 14 days(?) has elapsed without payment and they will chase this 'debt' mercilessly.

 

Do NOT under any circumstances expect them to go away!

I have heard several times of trifling amounts sometimes less than £1 becoming a hefty £200+ by ignoring their demands: they will eventually take out a CCJ against you if they get bored with chasing!