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    • Hermes lost parcel.. Read more at https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/422615-hermes-lost-parcel/
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    • I came across this discussion recently and just wanted to give my experience of A Shade Greener that may help others regarding their boiler finance agreement.
       
      We had a 10yr  finance contract for a boiler fitted July 2015.
       
      After a summer of discontent with ASG I discovered that if you have paid HALF the agreement or more you can legally return the boiler to them at no cost to yourself. I've just returned mine the feeling is liberating.
       
      It all started mid summer during lockdown when they refused to service our boiler because we didn't have a loft ladder or flooring installed despite the fact AS installed the boiler. and had previosuly serviced it without issue for 4yrs. After consulting with an independent installer I was informed that if this was the case then ASG had breached building regulations,  this was duly reported to Gas Safe to investigate and even then ASG refused to accept blame and repeatedly said it was my problem. Anyway Gas Safe found them in breach of building regs and a compromise was reached.
       
      A month later and ASG attended to service our boiler but in the process left the boiler unusuable as it kept losing pressure not to mention they had damaged the filling loop in the process which they said was my responsibilty not theres and would charge me to repair, so generous of them! Soon after reporting the fault I got a letter stating it was time we arranged a powerflush on our heating system which they make you do after 5 years even though there's nothing in the contract that states this. Coincidence?
       
      After a few heated exchanges with ASG (pardon the pun) I decided to pull the plug and cancel our agreement.
       
      The boiler was removed and replaced by a reputable installer,  and the old boiler was returned to ASG thus ending our contract with them. What's mad is I saved in excess of £1000 in the long run and got a new boiler with a brand new 12yr warranty. 
       
      You only have to look at TrustPilot to get an idea of what this company is like.
       
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    • Dazza a few months ago I discovered a good friend of mine who had ten debts with cards and catalogues which he was slavishly paying off at detriment to his own family quality of life, and I mean hardship, not just absence of second holidays or flat screen TV's.
       
      I wrote to all his creditors asking for supporting documents and not one could provide any material that would allow them to enforce the debt.
       
      As a result he stopped paying and they have been unable to do anything, one even admitted it was unenforceable.
       
      If circumstances have got to the point where you are finding it unmanageable you must ask yourself why you feel the need to pay.  I guarantee you that these companies have built bad debt into their business model and no one over there is losing any sleep over your debt to them!  They will see you as a victim and cash cow and they will be reluctant to discuss final offers, only ways to keep you paying with threats of court action or seizing your assets if you have any.
       
      They are not your friends and you owe them no loyalty or moral duty, that must remain only for yourself and your family.
       
      If it was me I would send them all a CCA request.   I would bet that not one will provide the correct response and you can quite legally stop paying them until such time as they do provide a response.   Even when they do you should check back here as they mostly send dodgy photo copies or generic rubbish that has no connection with your supposed debt.
       
      The money you are paying them should, as far as you are able, be put to a savings account for yourself and as a means of paying of one of these fleecers should they ever manage to get to to the point of a successful court judgement.  After six years they will not be able to start court action and that money will then become yours.
       
      They will of course pursue you for the funds and pass your file around various departments of their business and out to third parties.
       
      Your response is that you should treat it as a hobby.  I have numerous files of correspondence each faithfully organised showing the various letters from different DCA;s , solicitors etc with a mix of threats, inducements and offers.   It is like my stamp collection and I show it to anyone who is interested!
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I think that first of all there is an option to ask the claimant to complete the Notice to Adduce Hearsay Evidence under CPR34 wherever their documents are not originals - but that is usually ignored by the court 'as they are looking at the bigger picture' eg you owe the money and we're not interested in your court games.

 

The N268 however is I feel a perfectly reasonable request. You are surely well within your rights to ensure that the paperwork presented in support of a claim that can lead to a judgment against you (a big deal we'd all agree?) is in order. If they have the originals and all is correct then certainly a N268 will be viewed as a waste of time, however if no originals are presented why shouldn't you question their authenticity?

 

We are all aware of the cut n' paste jobs some DCAs get up too so why should you allow a hobbycraft enthusiast an unchallenged route to judgment against you? No originals then I'd use the N268, you can demonstrate your use of it was reasonable so I see no reason for the N268 being ignored or you being punished for using it.

 

Can you imagine winning the lottery and then not being able to find your ticket? Camelot have a policy that the original ticket must be presented in order to validate the payout. If you contested this (as was famously done a few years back) and you instead had a photocopy of your ticket wouldn't the first question be 'Is that a photocopy of the ticket or is it a photoshop forgery?'.

 

Either way in that scenario it's academic as Camelot want the original but the point is the same. Is the document a genuine copy, if the originals have been lost or shredded then it's quite reasonable to insist the claimant satisfies their obligation to prove their case by ensuring the documents they present are indeed genuine and not made up. Ultimately with the N268 you are not making any allegation, you are merely ensuring that all is in order and protecting yourself from false or incorrectly documented claims. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

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Hi

I suppose the difference would be, that it is Camalot's money they are giving away, so they can make any rules regarding its dispercement they like.

In the case of a company reclaiming its money from a debtor, its the court that makes the rules.

Peter

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Earlier this year i was in the small claims and was told N268 was not applicable; the case was dismissed because the prescribed terms weren't there.

This DJ did know the law and checked her references, quite novel where I live!

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Earlier this year i was in the small claims and was told N268 was not applicable; the case was dismissed because the prescribed terms weren't there.

This DJ did know the law and checked her references, quite novel where I live!

 

Yep, N268 not applicable for small claims but for anything particularly complicated and/or over 5k not assigned to small claims it remains an option.

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Very good Cole, in my opinion for a Claimant to prove a document they simply need to state it's source.

 

A N268 is simply a query in my opinion I'm not asking for DNA or CSI. The Claimant simply needs to state in their witness statement the source of said document and state it's relative accuracy. e.g

 

This copy was a direct scan off our archive system.

 

This copy was hand crafted by Mongo in the back office, after he completed the last batch of £7 notes.

 

 

Pumpytums

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi everyone,

ok first things first I have just managed to get approx 33% knocked off the balance I was awarded a miss-sell on the PPI. The OC is very good with regards to PPI refunds to give them their due.

 

I have a date for my application for a strike out, fingers crossed.

 

And finally I'm going to give the OC a chance at settlement. This will be sent directly to them and not to thicky crowbar. I have done this in the past and been pleasantly surprised by the results so I will give it a whirl. At the end of the day it's for the Claimant and Defendant to come to an arrangement if they don't wont to play so be it. It will only cost me a stamp.

 

 

Pumpytums

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  • 1 month later...

Hi everyone,

just got back from court.

 

Case struck out. :)

 

Obviously they will probably appeal but they didn't even bother turning up for my application which is very naughty, if they then decide to appeal. They cannot claim they never received the application as I sent a letter to the Claimant regarding it. So 2 letters getting lost in the post is taking the Mick.

 

The judge said my application by stating CPR 38.7 was exactly right and they needed to ask for permission he said "I'm striking out their case and lets put an end to this"

 

He also asked had I had any communication from them after issuing the application I said no absolutely nothing.

 

I said thank you very much sir. Total time 3 mins. Luckily I took copies of the previous Claim to help the judge out. :)

 

So my friends at the Claimants Solicitors were talking a pack of lies they clearly stated in a letter

 

"We can confirm that CPR 38.7 is not applicable to this claim on the grounds that the Claimant has not

previously issued any claims against you."

 

Which is utter rubbish. They tried to give me legal advice on a number of occasions, something which I politely ignored.

 

 

Pumpytums

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Great result. Well done.

“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

If a Cagger helps you, click their star. Better still, make a donation however small, so that CAG can continue to help others.

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well done Pump, maybe a wasted costs order? but sounds like the judge wanted to nip everything in the bud, so think carefully about not peeing him off too much.

If they try an appeal, then certainly put it in

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Yes to be honest that's what I thought. I could have asked to be allowed to file my counter claim. The judge to be honest did ask me if I wanted to add anything.

 

I simply stated that I did try to come to a financial arrangement with the first Claimant which was rejected and that the Claimant was more interested in getting a charging order on my property. I could have asked for costs I suppose, maybe that's why he asked. I felt the better person in some ways for not asking for them.

 

One thing I did notice while I was waiting for my application was the amount of Charging orders been heard on the day I counted 5 on the list. Probably from people not disputing claims, not their fault but the systems.

 

Pumpytums

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I would go for a wasted costs order Pumpy but thats me:lol:

 

Well done though

 

Regards

 

Andy

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Well done Pumpy. Good to see the justice system working properly for a change.

 

I would go for a wasted costs order Pumpy but thats me

 

Me too! Make 'em pay; it may also make them think twice before starting another spurious claim in the future.

Any knowledge I possess or advice I proffer is based solely on my experiences in the University of Life. Please make your own assessment of legality, risks & costs before taking any action.

 

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Well done Pumpy. Good to see the justice system working properly for a change.

 

 

 

Me too! Make 'em pay; it may also make them think twice before starting another spurious claim in the future.

 

I suppose it wouldn't hurt claiming back my £80? would it.

 

Ok timeline

 

1. I wrote to Claimant stating their claim was an abuse of process and gave them the option to discontinue and pay my costs.

2. They replied stating it wasn't an abuse of process and CPR 38.7 did not apply. They gave me the option to withdraw my defence.

3. I filed my application.

4. I attended the application they couldn't be bothered and their claim was struck out.

 

Do I write to the Claimant first with my costs? or do I write directly to the court manager with a breakdown of them?

 

Thanks

 

Pumpytums

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You need to apply on a N244 Pumpy stating why you think you are entitled to costs eg unreasonable behaviour & enclosing your costs schedule, a copy of the strike out order if you have it & a draft order for the costs. I think the fee is £35.00 - it can be added to your costs.

You should send a copy to the Claimant.

Any knowledge I possess or advice I proffer is based solely on my experiences in the University of Life. Please make your own assessment of legality, risks & costs before taking any action.

 

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Example Pumpy

 

 

Case No:

 

IN THE xxx COUNTY COURT

 

B E T W E E N:

Claimant

-and-

Defendant

DEFENDANT’S BILL OF COSTS

After Service of the Claimant’s Notice of Discontinuance.

 

Costs Payable by the Claimant

 

CPR 38.6 and CPR 44.12(1)(d)

2

The Claimant commenced proceedings in relation to an agreement regulated under The

 

Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Claimant was the assignee of a judgment obtained by the

 

original creditor to the agreement in the Shoreditch County Court in 1993. The proceedings

 

constituted relitigation and were an abuse of process. The proceedings were defended and

 

the Defendant applied to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out.

 

On (date) the Claimant served Notice of Discontinuance of the whole of its claim.

 

At all times the Defendant was a Litigant in Person within the meaning of Litigants in Person

 

(Costs and Expenses) Act 1975 and time spent by the Defendant is charged herein at an

 

hourly rate of £9.25.

 

The nature of the case being one of relitigation required the Defendant to spend time in

 

locating and examining the documents and other papers which related to the proceedings of

 

1993 which had been begun by the original creditor and in considering the way in which the

 

1993 proceedings affected the proceedings begun by the Claimant.

 

The Defendant was obliged to spend time in considering and understanding numerous strands

 

of law including the law of consumer credit, the law of limitation and practice and procedure in

 

the County Court which he achieved through internet and library research.

 

The Defendant was obliged to spend time in drawing his defence and application to strike out

 

in a way which complied with the relevant rules and practice directions of the CPR. The

 

Defendant was further obliged to consider the Notice of Discontinuance and its effect upon the

 

litigation and his consequential rights and obligations to include his rights and obligations upon

 

the matter of costs and the relevant rules and practice directions of the CPR in reference to

 

the detailed assessments of costs as applied to Litigants in Person.

 

The following is a statement of the work done in the course of the proceedings. Where there is

 

a charge for time spent, the amount of time recorded as spent represents the Defendants fair

 

estimate of the amount of time spent by him

 

Claimed (£)

 

1 Date

 

Particulars of claim

 

2 Date

 

Acknowledgement of Service

 

3 Date

 

Defence

3

4 Date

 

Defendant's Notice of Application

 

to strike out

 

PAID: court Fee £75.00

 

5 Date

 

Claimant's Notice of Discontinuance

 

6 Date

 

Hearing of Defendnt's application (vacated)

 

7 Work Done

 

Receiving and considering the Claim Form and Particulars of

 

Claim (3 hrs) £27.75

 

Searching for and locating the papers and other documents

 

relating to the 1993 proceedings (4 hrs) £37.00

 

Acknowledgement of Service (1 hrs) £9.25

 

Research regarding consumer credit law, law of limitation

 

law regarding relitigation (15 hrs) £138.75

 

Preparing Defence (4 hrs) £37.00

 

Preparing Application Notice (4 hrs) £37.00

 

Receiving and considering Notice of Discontinuance (1 hr) £9.25

 

Research regarding CPR 38.6 and CPR 44.12 (10 hrs) £92.50

 

Research regarding detailed assessment proceedings

 

and Litigants in Person (Costs and Expenses) Act 1975 (10 hrs) £92.50

 

Preparing bill of costs and notice of commencement of

 

costs proceedings (6 hrs) £55.50

 

time spent in telephone calls, letters and emails

 

written and received (4 hrs) £37.00

Summary

Costs payable by the Claimant £573.50

 

Disbursements (court fee) £75.00

Total costs payable by the Defendant £648.50

Dated:

 

Signed:

 

Regards

 

Andy

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  • 1 month later...

Hi everyone,

I recently got paid and was about to submit my wasted costs claim.

 

And guess what off we go again the Claimant has requested the "strike out" order to be set aside. What a surprise?

 

The cheeky beggars tried to get it through without a hearing which failed as they are having one anyway.

 

They state that the reason the order should be set aside is that the Claimant is a separate company to the previous Claimant and that they therefore don't have to stick to CPR 38.7 as they have never previously issued a claim against me. Odd it doesn't mention company's under CPR 38.7.

 

Obviously this is bollards the right to sue was assigned to the previous Claimant they took it and discontinued and then flogged it back to the OC who then decided to sue without requesting permission. The other point is why didn't they say this at my application? Hang on they didn't even bother attending did they?

 

Pumpytums

 

P.S Thanks Andy I missed your post really sorry.

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  • 1 month later...

Let me tell you a story.

 

I arrived bright and early at court 30mins before the Claimants application to have my strike out set aside as they believed it to be incorrect. I check in with the registrar who indicates the Claimant solicitor I say hello and he ignores me but seemed rather preoccupied. As the clock ticks on he goes to chat to the registrar and they comes over to me and apologises for earlier and shakes my hand, he asks if we can have a chat which I agree to. In a private room he asks if I wish to discuss anything with him I say not really no he says "OK then I always ask just in case" jolly nice bloke. My opinion of solicitors has now changed at the end of the day they are doing a job and this doesn't give them the right to be snotty with the Defendant happily this guy was very polite and even friendly.

 

We walk into the judges office and I help the Solicitor with the door (he has a large case on wheels) we sit down and the judge looks at both of us and enquires I'm at a loss regarding this application can you shed any light on it. I start to feel a smile on my lips and quickly keep a straight face, The solicitor explains that this is to have the previous strike out set aside, the judge says "Your Claimant did not attend the Defendants application did they? Can you explain why?" The solicitor seems a little lost, I help him out a little by stating that the Claimant also failed to send any response to the court by post too. The poor guy looks really uncomfortable at this point and asks the judge if he could be allowed to speak to his client. The judge states that he has a very busy morning and looks at me "Do you agree to allow this?" I respond "No they have had 3 months to sort it out".

 

The judge then continues how can your client request a set-aside when they didn't even attend they should have filed an appeal. The point here is that the Claimants reason for a set-aside was that the Strike out was silent to as why it was granted. The problem comes when you consider the simple fact the Claimant in no way shape or form challenged my Strike out application, by not turning up or sending in a letter, technically they agreed to it. The thing to have done was to file an appeal maybe stating that they did not receive the application which would be very dodgy as I sent them a copy in my AQ and also mentioned it in a certain letter to the Claimant. The other thing is it's outside the 21days for the appeal.

 

To actual get an appeal the Claimant will first have to file an application requesting a variation in time for filing an appeal. Then if they are granted a variation they can then file an appeal but for what? The thing to appreciate is their application was made by a proper solicitor not a pseudo legal threat monkey. So basically a trained solicitor messed it up a simple appeal. I really don't think a clerical error is grounds for an appeal, the circumstances would be need to be more mitigating I would hope. I think they knew they were scuppered when they sent their application in they hoped to get it past the judge without a hearing.

 

So the judge told them to do one the strike out still stands, the solicitor was almost pleading with the judge at the end as how to carry on the judge simply stated he was impartial and couldn't give any advise. He asked me if they was anything I wanted to add I asked for costs at £9.25 per hour and my £80 application he raised an eyebrow and asked realistically how many hours I replied probably one, I took the hint. He made an order as to no costs. He stated that he could not award the £80 for the application as this was not mentioned in the strike out and it would go against the ruling.

 

So hopefully that's the end of it I have a rather large torpedo to pop across their bow should they be daft enough to drop another claim my way. Something that came to me by something the Solicitor said.

 

Very interesting I learnt a great deal. The main thing I leant is judges take in my case at least Rules and Practise Directions very seriously.

 

The point I would also like to make, I sent a letter to the Claimant offering a repayment plan this was not a £1 a month I may add they never responded so my conscience is clear.

 

Thanks all

 

Pumpytums

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Great news. Nice to get one over a sloppy claimant. Well done.

“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

If a Cagger helps you, click their star. Better still, make a donation however small, so that CAG can continue to help others.

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Well done Pumpy but its £18 per hour now, just for your records.

Delighted for you.

 

Regards

 

Andy

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