I'm told I have no rights!

[Batgirly]

Advice needed please. I'm new!

This is what happened to me.

 

I was issued a parking ticket in which I was alleged to have parked in a suspended bay. I in fact parked in a clearly marked pay and display bay and paid and displayed as normal. I took photos of my car next to the sign but decided I wouldn't send them these just yet but I wrote a stinky letter instead. In my letter I asked them to prove to me by way of a photo, my car in this so called suspended bay. They replied saying they have decided that the fine remains and they enclosed a photo of a suspended sign. A photo that had been snapped up at the sign with trees behind. No road or cars at all.

 

Of course I knew they couldn't possibly have a photo with my car parked in the wrong place. The letter states if I don't pay the penalty then legal action will be taken. I thought that's fine by me. I will gladly show them what idiots they are!. I awaited a letter to say they were taking court action but heard nothing. I assumed once they had not received a payment someone had seen a clear mistake on their part and thought better of it than to bother me again.

This all took place in May this year. Yesterday in the early hours I found my car outside of my house clamped. A baillif had been ordered to remove my car and crush it if I didn't cough up nearly £400 within 24hrs. This clamp meant I could not get to work nor my children to school. Of course I had no intention of paying it but the baillif was very addament I had no choice.

 

I contacted the parking fines dept to be told they can do nothing but advice me to go back to the baillif! I called the police to ask what can be done and again, nothing. I then contacted my local city couciller who tried very hard to help me. She managed to get a Council parking fines manager to look at my case and call me. According to their system I have no rights whatsoever as they say they sent two reminders to pay the penalty. I explained I had heard nothing since May but her reply was the same. Baisicaly tough. I asked what information they had on their system detailing my car in a suspended bay. She said they have 12 photos, all of which have my car in. I am baffled and have asked for copies of these. I also asked if that was the case then why did they not send me such a photo when I requested it. Why would they send me a photo of just a sign taken at the other end of a one way road and not the sign directly next to my car. I'm still awaiting these photo's. She still insisted I cannot appeal as I had my chance!

 

I then had no choice but to pay the baillif. The counciller was again helpfull and arranged a payment plan for me with the baillif. To me and my kids £400 is an awful lot of money just before xmas. This has totally shocked and upset me and I feel like this whole thing is a sick joke. I don't know what to do and I am now frightened I won't have the money when the baillifs call at my door and they will take the only thing I have thats worth anything, my car.

 

Surely I must have rights. I can prove I parked correctly. I did nothing wrong and would never park where I run the risk of a fine simply because I can't afford it. Why would a traffic warden need to lie and cause me this greif?

 

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

[sailor sam]

Hi there,

 

First of all, can you post the pictures you took at the time?

 

The main problem here is that you havn't appealed the ticket correctly within the time limit. basically, you should of responded to their letter rejecting your appeal by asking it to go before the adjudicator. Then you would of been able to produce your pitcures. As you have not done this, their 'wheels' of enforcement have continued to turn and as such may indeed have recinded your rights.

 

BUT, if we can take a look at the pics then there may be certain avenues to explore. For example, the signage may have been incorrect or the bay may have been suspended without adequate notice. One question which springs to mind is; if the bay was suspened then why was'nt the pay & display machine covered up or something?

[Consumer dude]

I always thought baliffs are only involved after a case has has gone to court or may be I have got that wrong..

[Batgirly]

Thanks for your reply.

I'm unable to post the pics right now however they show a clearly marked pay and display bay with an arrow to the pay machine. The sign is located next to my car about one cars length prior to my space. The photo they sent to me was of a different sign located further up the one way road. A large building site driveway seperates the road and the suspended bays are after the driveway then a further 4 or 5 car spaces on. I didn't drive near that part of the road. And entered from the other end as it's one way.(I returned at a later date to see for myself the sign they had photographed).

 

On the day I parked I actually spotted people returning to their car so I waited and noted the clear pay and display sign and so I pulled straight into the space feeling lucky! I know the road well and it is very popular with shoppers. I've never seen another car with a ticket in that space!

I thought my letter detailing the facts was my first appeal. I thought I was innocent until proven guilty.

[Batgirly]

I always thought baliffs are only involved after a case has has gone to court or may be I have got that wrong..

 

I thought that too. Imagine my horror to find out the council parking authority no longer take people to court. Their first course of legal action is to allow bailiffs to clamp and take possession of the vehicle.

[Consumer dude]

Is there any way you can park the car in a garage for now and do without using it for a while to prevent the baliffs taking it while you seek specfic legal advice..

[Consumer dude]

I thought that too. Imagine my horror to find out the council parking authority no longer take people to court. Their first course of legal action is to allow bailiffs to clamp and take possession of the vehicle.

 

 

 

 

Have you managed to find out if thats illegal ?

[Batgirly]

I thought of that but really I have no choice but to use it. I was thinking of locking it up in my works yard but fear I will make this situation worse. The bailiff has been very intimidating and I can't risk these costs going up or my car being crushed.

Yesterday was my first day back to work after I had to take two weeks off to look after my poorly daughter. I'm now worried about taking more time to seek legal advice. I don't know where to begin. CAB have a drop in that I can't attend. I have left them a message to contact me but that could take time.

The bailiff will be at my house on Friday to take money.

[buzby]

Have you managed to find out if thats illegal ?

 

 

Fully legal. Councils have Enforcement Powers that allows them to skip the court stage if the appeals proceedure is not followed and within the correct timescale. It was brought in to speed up Rates/Poll Tax/Council Tax collection, but can be used by them for the collection of fines.

 

You do not say why you did not challenge the NTO, and make representations, as this is the first stage of the appeals process. If you got all this and decided to ignore it an 'see them in court' the bad news is the chances of you getting the repoened are slim. If a good reason is presented, it can sometimes allow the matter to be re-opened, but NOT ignoring the paperwork - that's treated as a contempt of process and any appeal would be rejected.

[Batgirly]

The reply to my first letter did not contain the photo or proof I had requested. The letter said failure to pay would result in legal action. Knowing I was in the right and being totally disgusted at the penalty along with the anger I felt over having to prove my innocence resulted in my thinking so take me to court. I received nothing after that letter and like I say assumed someone with a brain had seen the unpaid penalty on the system and realized they had made a mistake in issuing the ticket in the first place. It made sense to me they would forget it or look stupid in court. I would have thought the bailiff should have written. When I questioned that, I was told they had however the postal strikes could be the reason I didn't receive it. They told me to take it up with the post office. Very helpful!

I'd love to know how many cars are ticketed in this bay. It must be a real money spinner.

[buzby]

Firstly, they have no requirement to supply pictures. Local policy will dictate what they do, however there are times these are only provided as part of the 'adjudication' package , should there be an appeal.

 

You would be one of thousands with unpaid fines, so nothing in particular to make it stand out. If you do not reply to the NTO, then the rest is simply enforcement - and you get a visit from bailiffs. Your only appeal is saying you never got the NTO. The bailiffs letter is less of a deal breaker, as they'd still levy distraint regardless.

[Consumer dude]

The reply to my first letter did not contain the photo or proof I had requested. The letter said failure to pay would result in legal action. Knowing I was in the right and being totally disgusted at the penalty along with the anger I felt over having to prove my innocence resulted in my thinking so take me to court. I received nothing after that letter and like I say assumed someone with a brain had seen the unpaid penalty on the system and realized they had made a mistake in issuing the ticket in the first place. It made sense to me they would forget it or look stupid in court. I would have thought the bailiff should have written. When I questioned that, I was told they had however the postal strikes could be the reason I didn't receive it. They told me to take it up with the post office. Very helpful!

I'd love to know how many cars are ticketed in this bay. It must be a real money spinner.

 

 

 

 

A real money spinner indeed. If I had a letter stating that failure to pay would result in legal action I would assume that means a court case. The idea that this can be bypassed in this way is in my opinion an insult to natural justice..

[Batgirly]

I know now I should have taken the time and energy to prove my innocence however there's no getting away from the facts that I did not park illegally and it is their wardens mistake (attempt to hit quotas). It's like they are stealing my money.

[Consumer dude]

I know now I should have taken the time and energy to prove my innocence however there's no getting away from the facts that I did not park illegally and it is their wardens mistake (attempt to hit quotas). It's like they are stealing my money.

 

 

 

 

 

I know exactly what your saying and it may turn out that the law is on their side however just because law may have might does not mean its right. What goes round comes round is what I say..

[Batgirly]

I've never taken the time to learn of thier rules and legalities. I've never had a parking fine. Surely it's for them to make their policies clear if they are issuing fines to the general public, most of whom will have no knowledge of the system. They should state their legal action could mean any enforcement they choose on that day! Important letters should also be sent recorded to ensure they get to people. That is if they actually sent any. It's all about money making and screwing people over. They should concentrate on real offenders.

 

I thanks all members for your replies. More advice is very welcome.

[buzby]

The idea that this can be bypassed in this way is in my opinion an insult to natural justice..

 

But why, knowing that Council have the power to enforce their debts without court action? Or if this was unknown, then whilst unfortunate, ignorance of enforcement is not a defence against such action. Most people learn the hard way, if they don't take the time to research the possible outcomes.

 

To be fair - they wrere blisteringly accurate in their description - legal action (by sending in the bailiff for payment) did indeed follow.

Edited December 2, 2009 by buzby

[JimmySpangle]

Maybe just me, but why on earth would you feel the need to photograph your car when you park in a bay correctly? Something not adding up here. Cynics would suggest that someone could return to the 'crime scene', remove the suspended sign and then photograph the situation.

 

Not that I would go along with that of course.

[buzby]

I've never taken the time to learn of thier rules and legalities. I've never had a parking fine. Surely it's for them to make their policies clear if they are issuing fines to the general public, most of whom will have no knowledge of the system. They should state their legal action could mean any enforcement they choose on that day! Important letters should also be sent recorded to ensure they get to people. That is if they actually sent any. It's all about money making and screwing people over. They should concentrate on real offenders.

 

I thanks all members for your replies. More advice is very welcome.

 

Well you know the saying ignorance of the law is no excuse - and surely this wasn't the case of not learning rules and legalities, it was ignoring the official correspondence (like the Notice To Owner) which explicitly laid down what you needed to do to challenge their assertion. Hoping is simply 'goes away' is never an option - it won't. You also get to pay the bailiff's fees too, so injustice is piled on.

 

Recorded Delivery letters would be counter productive. By requiring a signature, the recipient will probably not accept it, or not collect it if a card is left, making it more difficult to enforce. Sending it by normal mail prevents this, and ensures the RK recieves the documentation within a few days of it being sent.

 

Yes, you're right - it IS all about making money, and for ares like Westminster and Camden, they do very well out of it, which is WHY everyone else takes them seriously and ensures they are always challenged wherever possible, and in my case I have a hearing tomorrow with the parking adjudicator where I am charging the Council almost £200 for a vexatious pursuit in issuing a ticket.

 

I use the SAME rules to hit them where it hurts. By ignoring them, you're effectively playing into their hands. I do not believe you'll have much luck in getting any money back, as their pursuit was lawful, and attempting to recall the action will cost considerably more, with no guarantee of success.

[sailor sam]

Maybe just me, but why on earth would you feel the need to photograph your car when you park in a bay correctly? Something not adding up here. Cynics would suggest that someone could return to the 'crime scene', remove the suspended sign and then photograph the situation.

 

Not that I would go along with that of course.

 

This was my first thought but it seems the OP took the pictures AFTER discovering the PCN. The other strange thing (which I mentioned in my earlier post) is if the bay was suspended, how come the machine was still active and un-covered.

 

Unfortunately without seeng the pics of the bay/signage ect there is very little to go on. The OP would need to show the lack of necessary signage stating the bay was suspended as a defence. I'm pretty sure any legal advice will confirm this. Also, there needs to have been signs giving advance notice of the suspension so as the OP states she 'knows the road well' suggests that these may have not been present. If the OP can provide the pics she took at the time showing this was the case then she may have an avenue to persue.

[Blagton]

Advice needed please. I'm new!

This is what happened to me.

 

I was issued a parking ticket in which I was alleged to have parked in a suspended bay. I in fact parked in a clearly marked pay and display bay and paid and displayed as normal. I took photos of my car next to the sign but decided I wouldn't send them these just yet but I wrote a stinky letter instead. In my letter I asked them to prove to me by way of a photo, my car in this so called suspended bay. They replied saying they have decided that the fine remains and they enclosed a photo of a suspended sign. A photo that had been snapped up at the sign with trees behind. No road or cars at all.

 

Of course I knew they couldn't possibly have a photo with my car parked in the wrong place. The letter states if I don't pay the penalty then legal action will be taken. I thought that's fine by me. I will gladly show them what idiots they are!. I awaited a letter to say they were taking court action but heard nothing. I assumed once they had not received a payment someone had seen a clear mistake on their part and thought better of it than to bother me again.

 

But you choose to ignore the offer of appeal which would have been on the original PCN ?

 

Post pictures (personal details removed) of the front and back of the PCN you received.

 

You might also want to post pictures of the bay and signage - they may be non compliant however that would have been best established when you received the PCN and appealed on those grounds.

 

This all took place in May this year. Yesterday in the early hours I found my car outside of my house clamped. A baillif had been ordered to remove my car and crush it if I didn't cough up nearly £400 within 24hrs. This clamp meant I could not get to work nor my children to school. Of course I had no intention of paying it but the baillif was very addament I had no choice.

 

Bailifs won't just appear from behind a bush - you must have had some correspondence of some sort ?

 

Are you really suggesting that from receipt of the original PCN to the time you received a clamp nothing was received by you at all ?

 

I then had no choice but to pay the baillif. The counciller was again helpfull and arranged a payment plan for me with the baillif. To me and my

 

Alot seems to have happend since the early hours of yesterday morning yet not much in the months previous.

 

 

Surely I must have rights. I can prove I parked correctly. I did nothing wrong and would never park where I run the risk of a fine simply because I

 

You do but dealing with them at the time of the incident is the best way of doing it.

 

Blagton

[Batgirly]

Maybe just me, but why on earth would you feel the need to photograph your car when you park in a bay correctly? Something not adding up here. Cynics would suggest that someone could return to the 'crime scene', remove the suspended sign and then photograph the situation.

 

Not that I would go along with that of course.

 

 

I took photos on my mobile phone as my mother who was with me thought it a good idea. I did this before leaving the space. We were so shocked a ticket was on my car after carefully choosing the space and reading the pay and display sign.

[Batgirly]

I heard nothing so naturally did nothing. Of course I have learnt the hard way however there is no getting away from the fact their employees are trying their luck by ticketing cars in proper bays then saying the bays are suspended by showing photos of a sign in a different part of the road. Now thats Criminal.

I have this evening been intouch with a legal advice service through my works. They are looking into it and will try to help me get this mess sorted and prove they are in the wrong.

 

I will keep you updated and wish to thank everyone for their comments.

[green_and_mean]

This was my first thought but it seems the OP took the pictures AFTER discovering the PCN. The other strange thing (which I mentioned in my earlier post) is if the bay was suspended, how come the machine was still active and un-covered.

 

 

They could have suspended part of the bay the machine would only be turned off if the entire row was suspended.

[Blagton]

I heard nothing so naturally did nothing. Of course I have learnt the hard way however there is no getting away from the fact their employees are trying their luck by ticketing cars in proper bays then saying the bays are suspended by showing photos of a sign in a different part of the road. Now thats Criminal.

 

If what you are suggesting is anything like hwat is happening then you should have raised this when you inititally had the PCN. You say you had pictures of your car parked where it was with the ticket attached - you should have used this at the time and in your appeal.

 

You may well be not in the position you are now.

 

I have this evening been intouch with a legal advice service through my works. They are looking into it and will try to help me get this mess sorted and prove they are in the wrong.

 

There are plenty of People on here and Pepipoo who, if you had received a PCN incorrectly could have advised you of how to appeal at the time.

 

These picturs you mentioned would help too.

 

Blagton

[danielr]

Firstly, they have no requirement to supply pictures. Local policy will dictate what they do, however there are times these are only provided as part of the 'adjudication' package , should there be an appeal.

I disagree.

 

The photos are personal data and should have been released when requested.

 

When requested the data should have been provided as Section 7(1) of the Data Protection Act 1998 provisions.