Welcome Secured Loan Mess!

[Martel]

Bebo, thanks for the info. Welcome seem to be in total mess!!!

 

MX

[BEBOBEBO]

It says something when even the Big Director is jumping ship!!

[Martel]

So, I called Welcome today and they confirmed that Paul Makin is the MD ad Margaret Young is the CEO.

 

Am just starting to get my head around composing a letter. Am looking at the most recent Secured Loan Statement sent to me - the only one on headed paper. It states the Annual Interest Rate is 0.00% (!). The Acceptance Fee of £235 is included and accruing interest. The date of the 'initial disbursement' seems to almost four months after the money was sent to me (so much for a 'cooling off period'). The cheque was sent to me some six weeks before the date of my signature on the 'agreement'. They've also deducted the £1 CCA request fee I sent in - as a payment on the account!

 

The statement for the original, unsecured loan that was subsumed into the secured loan states that, even after it was paid off, a closing balance of almost £1,000 remained (?!). The period listed on the statement is up to now (it was redeemed two years ago). The acceptance fee is £75 (it accrued interest). The Annual Interest Rate is listed as 36%. On the 'AGREEMENT' iT says the APR is 44.08% and the rate of interest P.A. is 42.50%.

 

There are so many strands to this story that composing a letter is giving me a headache!!

 

MX

[Martel]

Just an update - I'm sure it will come as no surprise to anyone dealing with Welcome but they simply refuse to respond to my SAR in full. The just ignore my requests and send me threatening letters.

 

I've rec'd a LBA, threatening me with court proceedings, repossession, etc.

 

Welcome have and continue to defy the law on so man occasions, I can't believe they're foolish enough to drag this through Court!!

[Martel]

Was wondering if anyone can give me any advice on how to respond to an LBA from Welcome.

 

I have written to numerous people at Welcome, Howard Cohen and Lewis debt Recovery numerous times, in an attempt to get a full response to my SAR (among other things, Welcome have yet to provide me with a properly executed Legal Charge or evidence of when the funds were sent to me). I never seem to get a response from those I've addressed the letters to, but from another branch or H Cohen or Lewis. Welcome's version of the Shell Game or confuse and conquer.

 

Their LBA states 'you have failed to provide a valid reason for our alleged failure to comply with your request.....As you are aware, section 7 DPA 1998, which relates to the right of access to persona data provides only a limited right to disclosure if information. It provides: (1|) Subject to the following provisions of this section and to sections 8 and 9, an individual is entitled - (a) to be informed by any data controller whether personal data of which that individual is the data subject re being processed by or on behalf of that data controller. (b) if that is the case, to be given by the data controller a description of - (i) the personal data of which that individual is the data subject (ioi) the purposes for which they are being or are to be processed, and (iii) the recipients or classes of recipients to whom they are or may be disclosed, © to have communicated to him in an intelligible form - (i) the information constituting any personal data of which that individual is the data subject, (ii) any information available to the data controller as to the source of those data. Accordingly, section 7 DPA 1998 does not entitle you to disclosure of the documents or classes of documents you seek.'

 

They also seem to think that I have stated that their breach of the DPA has rendered my agreement unenforceable (don't know where they got THAT idea - I never said it).

 

They advise my home is now at risk dues to 'continued and serious breaches' then threaten me that they will 'consider repossession proceedings against you directly' (the amount allegedly owed is never stated).

 

Can Welcome actually hide behind the DPA and refuse to supply a full response to my SAR. If it goes to Court, won't they have to reply to CPRs?

 

Argggghhh...what are they playing at? Even to my untrained eye, it seems like Welcome is employing smoke and mirrors to intimidate me.....

 

Any advice will be gratefully received!!

 

MXX

[IainHL]

Can Welcome actually hide behind the DPA and refuse to supply a full response to my SAR. If it goes to Court, won't they have to reply to CPRs?

Martel, I don't feel able to give you absolute advice since your case seems very complex. Where does the LBA come from? Is it some part of central Welcome (Ruddington or Lenton), in which case I would be inclined to believe that the person sending it may know what they are doing, rather than if it came from a local office where the knowledge tneds to be somewhat less (like sending a Default Notice headed "without prejudice"!).

 

If they do start action then indeed they will have to respond to requests made under CPR protocols. However, since they have very specifically pointed to starting action you are able to make a request under CPR Part 31.16 for the sort of documents they would be relying on as part of their claim.

 

Also, have you thought of complaining to the ICO about Welcome's refusal to comply with your Subject Access Request? At least they would give a ruling on whose interpretation was corrrect.

[Martel]

Martel, I don't feel able to give you absolute advice since your case seems very complex. Where does the LBA come from? Is it some part of central Welcome (Ruddington or Lenton), in which case I would be inclined to believe that the person sending it may know what they are doing, rather than if it came from a local office where the knowledge tneds to be somewhat less (like sending a Default Notice headed "without prejudice"!).

 

If they do start action then indeed they will have to respond to requests made under CPR protocols. However, since they have very specifically pointed to starting action you are able to make a request under CPR Part 31.16 for the sort of documents they would be relying on as part of their claim.

 

Also, have you thought of complaining to the ICO about Welcome's refusal to comply with your Subject Access Request? At least they would give a ruling on whose interpretation was corrrect.

 

Hi Iain! Thanks for your post....the letter is from head office in Ruddington.

 

Just to clarify - do you think I should send a CPR Part 31.16 now, just to get things going?

 

Good idea on the ICO - will get on the case ASAP....MX

[IainHL]

Just to clarify - do you think I should send a CPR Part 31.16 now, just to get things going?

It would seem to me to be a good idea since they are the ones who are now threatening action. There is a form of words you can use around a Part 31.16 request, firstly pointing out that you are making the request because they have intimated action, and then saying you need the information because it will assist you in determining your response to any such action they may institute. If you look around at some Part 31.16 letters I am sure you will find the words I mean.

[Martel]

Thanks, Iain! In the past, I've sent CPR 31.14 and CPR 18 to other creditors.

I'll keep hunting for CPR 31.16 on here. meanwhile, with thanks to Joski34, here is a combined CPR 31.12 and CPR 16.4, which I could edit to suit my situation....what do you think? MX

 

Dear Sir,

 

Re: (Claimant's name) v (Your name) Case No:

 

Combined CPR 31.12 and CPR 16.4(2) Request

 

On (date) I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the (Name) county court. I confirm having returned my Acknowledgement of Service form to the court indicating my intention to contest all of the proceedings.

 

Owing to the striking lack of particularity in your Particulars of Claim, I require the prompt disclosure by you pursuant to CPR 31.12 of each of the following documents, mention or reference to which would have been made had the Particulars of Claim contained the minimum of necessary particulars and complied generally with CPR PD 16.

 

1 the agreement giving rise to the obligation to Citi Financial for the credit advanced. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

 

2 the deed or other instrument of assignment by which you / the Claimant acquired rights under the agreement disclosed by you under [1] above.

 

3 the default notice, the service of which was a condition precedent to the creation of the debt now sued upon by you pursuant to the assignment disclosed by you under [2] above.

 

Additionally and in relation to the interest claimed, pursuant to CPR 16.4(2)

 

4 Under CPR 16.4(2)(a)(i) please now state whether the claim to £7xx.xx includes a claim for interest under the agreement disclosed under [1] above and if so,

 

5 Under CPR 16.4(2)(b) specify the amount of that interest, and

 

6 the percentage rate of interest, the date from which it is calculated and the date to which it is calculated, alternatively

 

7 Where more than one percentage rate of interest has been applied or compound interest has been applied in the calculation of the amount of interest specified at [5], specify each element of interest comprising the sum for interest specified at [5] and for each such element specify the amount treated as principal in the interest calculation, the percentage rate of interest, the date from which it is calculated and the date to which it is calculated.

 

8 Of the interest amounting to £2xx.xx claimed pursuant to County Courts Act 1984 section 69, specify the date from which it is calculated and the date to which it is calculated.

 

Although your claim is for a sum which is not more than £5,000.00 and will in all likelihood be allocated to the small claims track for determination upon my delivering a defence, at this moment in time I have not delivered my defence and the case has not been allocated to a track. In consequence the provisions of CPR 27(2) are of no effect and you should not seek to avoid compliance with your CPR 31 duties by claiming otherwise.

 

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the documents I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

 

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.12 request.

 

You should also ensure compliance with your CPR 16 duties and likewise ensure that the particular regarding interest are fully provided to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter.

 

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request.

 

If you are unable to comply with that part of this request concerned with CPR 31 and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

 

Please note that if you should fail to comply with any part of this request or fail to request more time, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

yours faithfully

[IainHL]

Martel, well I have never heard of Part 31.12, though I don't doubt it must exist, since there is at least up to .16 in Part 31! Also the header makes reference to CPR 16.4(2), but nowhere is it mentioned in the body of the letter.

 

What you have above isn't really suitable for your circumstances, since they have only sent a LBA, not actually issued a claim yet.

 

See this link http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/255329-cpr-18-cpr-31-a.html for the difference between Parts 18 and 31.14.

 

And in this link http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html for those words I was talking about wrapping around your CPR Part 31.16 request.

Edited May 12, 2010 by IainHL
It helps to put the link in!

[Martel]

Martel, well I have never heard of Part 31.12, though I don't doubt it must exist, since there is at least up to .16 in Part 31! Also the header makes reference to CPR 16.4(2), but nowhere is it mentioned in the body of the letter.

 

What you have above isn't really suitable for your circumstances, since they have only sent a LBA, not actually issued a claim yet.

 

See this link http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/255329-cpr-18-cpr-31-a.html for the difference between Parts 18 and 31.14.

 

And in this link http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html for those words I was talking about wrapping around your CPR Part 31.16 request.

 

Iain! Thanks for your post and support. I will explore all your good advice tomorrow and really get stuck in.....can't wait!! Best, MXX

[Martel]

Martel, well I have never heard of Part 31.12, though I don't doubt it must exist, since there is at least up to .16 in Part 31! Also the header makes reference to CPR 16.4(2), but nowhere is it mentioned in the body of the letter.

 

What you have above isn't really suitable for your circumstances, since they have only sent a LBA, not actually issued a claim yet.

 

See this link http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/255329-cpr-18-cpr-31-a.html for the difference between Parts 18 and 31.14.

 

And in this link http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html for those words I was talking about wrapping around your CPR Part 31.16 request.

 

Ok, have looked at the links (thanks for directing me to them) and I think the 'second' letter that PT257 refers to in his 3rd post is a good starting point for me (pasted in below, with thanks to PT257). There is v specific info that Welcome refuses to send me (e.g., the date I rec'd the funds, as it will reveal this was months before the actual agreement was signed. i.e., no cooling off period). They've also not sent me docs that have been sent to a third party. Anyway, I'll adapt the letter and hope to have something in the next few days.

 

Thanks for all your help!! MX

 

FORMAL REQUEST FOR INFORMATION

CPR part 31.16

 

Dear Sirs

 

Account number

 

On XXXXX i wrote to your organisation requesting that you supply me a copy of the agreement for my account. My request extended to the full agreement which bore my signature. Additionally i require the underwriting sheet or other document showing any commissions paid to you by the broker or by you to the broker {ONLY USE IF RELEVENT AND INCLUDED IN THE FIRST LETTER}

 

I enclose a copy of the letter which was sent should for your information.

 

I note that to date i have not received a reply from your organisation nor have i received a copy of the agreement which i requested. in view of the circumstances i do not feel it unreasonable to ask for this document to be disclosed, it is not commercially sensitive nor is it a restricted document and should be easily accessible for an organisation such as yours. therefore i would ask that you provide me with a copy of the contract which bears my signature, i require the complete document with all its parts .

 

the reasons why i require this information are clearly set out within my original letter dated XXXXX , but for clarity i require this document for the following reasons

 

1.I require this as i have reason to believe that there may be discrepancies within the agreement which may leave it improperly executed

 

2. Because i believe that the Payment protection insurance was not correctly incorporated within the agreement

 

3.because i believe that there was a commission paid in repect of this agreement which has not been disclosed to me and therefore is a breach of agency law

 

4. ...................

 

 

 

 

 

 

since this matter is likely to be subject to proceedings and gioven that your organisation is likely to be a defendant in any action which would be brought by me, i must draw your attention to Civil Procedure Rules part 31.16(3)©&(D) which gives the court the power to order you to disclose this document to me.

 

The disclosure of these documents will allow me to consider any claim i may have against your organisation and will allow for the matter to be dealt with possibly without the need for costly litigation. Therefore i again ask that you provide me with the documents which i have previously requested . I don't not consider this request unreasonable and therefore if you fail to comply with my request i will be left no option but to make an application to XXXX county court for an order made under the provisions of CPR 31.16 ordering you to disclose the documents which i have requested.

 

additionally i will ask the court to make an order for my costs in bringing this application and reserve the right to disclose all communications in this matter before the court should such an application become necessary

 

Please confirm by no later than 4pm on XXXXXXX that you will comply with my request or if you will not comply, please provide your reasons in writing

 

Regards

[Martel]

For reference the CEO of Welcome is Paul Mackin

 

Hi MP,

 

Just wanted to let you know I've PMd you x 2 (not stalking you, just remembering that there have been communication gremlins in the past).

 

MXXXXX

[Major Player]

I'll get back to you tomorrow;)

[Martel]

You're a total star!

 

Many thanks!!! MXX

[Martel]

I'll get back to you tomorrow;)

 

Major, wondering if you're around?

 

Martel

[Major Player]

tried to reply but says your inbox is full, lucky you!

[Martel]

Haha...popular for all the wrong reasons!!! Loads of space in it now! MX

[Martel]

tried to reply but says your inbox is full, lucky you!

 

have just sent you a PM......v good to hear from you!! MX

[Martel]

Here is the loan agreement.

 

And the OFT's recent 'requirements' imposed on Welcome.

 

Wonder if this will help me??

 

Look forward to hearing any insights.....

 

Thanks in advance!

Welcome edited loan agre224.pdf

Welcome-requirements.pdf

[postggj]

I need to see the statement of price

 

is welcome charging interest on the acceptance fee

 

post a link to the statement of price

[Martel]

Hi Post,

 

Is this what you had in mind? Welcome has sent me so much stuff, it's tricky trying to decipher everything.

 

Thanks,

Martel

Welcome statements226.pdf

[Martel]

Welcome's statement of case

Welcome statement of cas228.pdf

[Martel]

Have now rec'd a letter from HL Legal Solicitors, who claim to act for Experto 'who are agents for Welcome'....they've given me 7 days to pay the whole amount (the original loan plus £11,000!!).

 

Any ideas from anyone on what i should do???

 

thanks in advance!!!

 

Martel

[Martel]

Welcome are now issuing statements, after a 2 year absence.

 

What are they playing at?

 

Would love some feedback....

 

Thanks!!

 

Martel