Welcome Secured Loan Mess!

[ray singh]

thank you... im learning so much , mainly due to you post, keep up the good work ..... your like some kind of super hero.... now to think of a name...hmm postman?? nah... for one thing it seems you actually deliver!

[postggj]

Remember

 

Thats A Powerful Document And Only To Be Used When All Other Avenues Have Been Exausted And You Just Keep Getting Sod Off Letters From The Creditor

[postggj]

Ill Decode My Avitar

 

Post As To Postman

Ggj As To Rgj Royal Green Jackets

[ray singh]

haha

[Martel]

martel

 

any response to my letter in post 65

 

times up

 

Nope. Well, they sent me a letter saying I had to send them £1 for the CCA request and £10 for the SAR. I wrote back and pointed out they'd rec'd these fees ages ago and had even deducted £1 from my account (!).

 

The agreement they previously sent me looks kosher - but there was lots of to-ing and fro-ing about it at the time it was originally issued (because I didn't want PPI, which they had added to the agreement, and they had to reissue the agreement) and I believe Welcome sent me the money weeks BEFORE the date on the signatures (i.e., no cooling off period). Also, the DN doesn't have a precise date by which remedy could've taken place. Additionally, there's also that unwitnessed legal charge.....

 

Anyway, I'm primed to be programmed.....should I do anything or sit tight?

 

Post, thanks so much! MX

[postggj]

This Is The Second One Now Welcome Are Going To Get

 

Ready For An Enforcement Order Through Court Now

[Martel]

Whatever you say, Mx

[postggj]

IME POSTING UP SOME LETTERS

DO NOTHING WITH THEM

THEY NEED TO BE FILLED IN

 

IN THE XXXXXXX COUNTY COURT Claim No:

 

 

 

 

 

 

IN A PROPOSED ACTION

 

BETWEEN:

 

 

[ ]

Claimant

and

[ ]

Defendant

draft/ORDER

UPON [hearing the claimant and the defendant]

 

AND UPON [reading the witness statements of [ ] and [ ]

 

IT IS ORDERED THAT:

 

 

• the Defendant by [Date] shall confirm in writing to the claimant, which of the following documents are still in their possession
   
  1. The Credit agreement which is signed by the claimant and in its original form
   
  2. Any terms and conditions associated with the credit agreement being those which were relevant at the time the agreement was signed
   
  3. notices of variation (if any) which vary the terms of the original agreement in accordance with s82 Consumer Credit Act 1974
   
  4. The underwriting sheet or other document showing any commissions paid either by the Defendant to a third party or by a third party to the Defendant in respect of the loan agreement between the Claimant and Defendant
  

 

• if any of the above listed documents are not in the possession of the Defendant, the defendant shall give to the claimant an explanation as to what has happened to them
  

 

 

• The defendant by [date] shall supply the claimant copies of the documents listed in paragraph 1 which are still in the defendants possession
  
  

 

• The defendant shall pay the claimant’s costs of this application to be assessed by the Court and paid within 14 days of the assessment
  

 

 

Dated the day of 200

 

 

 

 

 

IN THE XXXXXXXX COUNTY COURT

IN A PROPOSED ACTION

 

BETWEEN:

 

 

[ ]

Claimant

and

[ ]

Defendant

 

WITNESS STATEMENT OF XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

 

I, [NAME] of [home address of individual] make this statement in support of my application for an order for pre-action disclosure against the Defendant and will state as follows:

 

 

• The facts and matters referred to in this witness statement are within my own knowledge, except where I have indicated otherwise. Where the facts are within my knowledge, they are true. Where they are not within my own knowledge, they are true to the best of my information and belief. I have stated the source of my information or belief.
  
• There is now produced and shown to me a bundle of documents marked “ABC1”. The exhibit “ABC1” contains copies of correspondance between the claimant and defendant and identifies the documents in respect of which I seek disclosure in this Application
  
• on xxxxx i entered into an agreement with the Defendant. the agreement was for a loan of £000000 ./ Credit card . the agreement number is 00000000000 and the loan / credit card is secured upon.../ is unsecured
  

 

The claim against the defendant

 

 

• I have reasonable rounds for a cause of action against the defendant. The grounds are as follows
   
  a) I believe that the agreement is improperly executed and not compliant with the requirements of section 61(1)(a) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and therefore the claimant would be entitled to seek a declaration from the court pursuant to section 142(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974
   
  b) The loan / Credit card has payment protection insurance which I did not request, disclosure of the agreement will show this as such a policy will be incorporated within the agreement and should be clearly particularised within the agreement as required by section 18 Consumer Credit Act 1974
   
  c) the Defendant has been levying charges which were not set out within the original agreement and therefore are not permitted by the contract
   
  d) .................... ( add any other relevant information)
   
   
  e).......................
  

 

Previous requests

 

 

 

• Previous requests for these documents have been made on the ........... and the ............. and in this regard I refer to exhibit “ABC1”. The Defendant has failed to respond to the requests for the documents and the only way that the Claimant can now make any progress with the claim is by making this application to the court. Unless the Defendant discloses the requested documents the Claimant cannot prepare accurate pleadings. This may lead to delay or additional expense if proceedings are issued and later need to be amended once standard disclosure is given.
  

 

Part 31.16 CPR 1998- pre-action discovery

 

 

 

 

• This application complies with Part 31.16 of the CPR 1998 because:
  

a)It is supported by evidence in the form of this statement and the exhibits attached hereto

 

b)The Claimant and the Defendant are likely to be parties to subsequent proceedings

 

c)If proceedings are started the Defendant duty by way of standard disclosure as set out in Part 31.6 CPR 1998 would extend to the requested documents. Care has been taken to identify specific documents and to explain to the Defendant which issues that particular document relates to.

 

d)It will allow anticipated proceedings to be fairly disposed of because a cards on the table approach will be taken by each party. Currently the Defendants have failed to do this and have ignored the Claimants requests to do so.

 

e)It will assist the dispute to be resolved without proceedings being necessary because once disclosure is given each party can see the strengths of their respective cases and informed negotiations may then be undertaken with the aim being to agree settlement without the need for proceedings to be issued. The Claimant does intend to put forward settlement proposals in correspondence upon disclosure of the requested documents, which may lead to the claim being settled with having to use valuable court resources.

 

f)It will save costs because full proceedings may not be necessary. The Claimant will not need to continue to write unnecessary letters reminding the Defendant to disclose documents. Both parties can deal with the claim more quickly and economically.

 

 

Part 31.6 CPR 1998- standard disclosure

• Standard disclosure requires a party to disclose only-
  a)The documents on which he relies
  b)The documents which
  i)Adversely affect his own case
  ii)Adversely affect another party’s case
   
  iii)Support another party’s case; and
  c)The documents which he is required to disclose by a relevant practice direction.
  
• there is no relevant practice direction here,the claimant is seeking disclosure of documents as referred to within para 10 (a)&(b)as set out above in this statement
   
  Part 1 CPR 1998 – the over ridding objective
  
• The application has been made with the overriding objective in mind. The Claimant has at all times tried to ensure that the overriding objective has been complied with. Due to the failure of the Defendant to give voluntary disclosure or any good reason for failing to give such disclosure this application has become necessary. The application fulfils the requirements of the overriding objective by using as little of the courts time as possible to put the parties on an equal footing in relation to the evidence that they hold and to avoid proceedings being issued unnecessarily
  

 

 

 

Case Law

 

 

 

• The documents requested go directly to heart of the claimant’s case. In accordance with the guidance given by Lord Justice Rix in Black and others v Sumitomo and others [2001] EWCA Civ 1819 (and in particular para. 72 of his judgment) care has been taken to ensure that the disclosure request is narrow and that the documents requested are determinative of the dispute between the parties. At paragraph 88 of his judgement Rix LJ states that when determining whether to grant an application for pre-action discovery the court will consider “the nature of the injury or loss complained of; the clarity and identification of the issues raised by the complaint; the nature of the documents requested; the relevance of any protocol or pre-action inquiries; and the opportunity which the complainant has to make his case without pre-action disclosure”. These points have been repeatedly addressed through out the claimants attempts to obtain the documents which are at the heart of this application
  

 

 

• SES Contracting Limited and others v UK Coal Plc and others [2007] EWCA Civ 791 addressed the issue of costs in pre-action discovery applications. Lord Justice Moore-Bick decided on that occasion that both paties should bear their own costs of the application. However, both parties where commercial organizations. In the present application the Claimant is an individual seeking disclosure against a large financial institution. In SES Contracting there was no breach of a pre-action protocol. In the present case the pre-action protocol practice direction has been broken by the Defendant in that the Defendant has failed to comply with paragraphs xxxxxxxxxxxxxx IDENTIFY WHICH PRE ACTION PROTOCOLS HAVE BEEN BREACHED BY THE L:ENDERS NON COMPLIANCE. Paragraphs 2.1; 2.3 and 3.3 of the protocol invite the court to take such breaches into account when making orders for costs. An award of costs against the defendant is likely to discourage a failure to comply with the protocol in future thereby obviating the need for an application to the court. An award of costs will also satisfy paragraph 2.4 of the pre-action protocol in placing the Claimant in no worse a position than he would have been in had the protocol been complied with. Any other order would place the Claimant in a worse position due to the Defendants non-compliance.
  
• For the reasons which I have outlined above I ask the court to grant the relief sought as detailed within the draft order
  

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true.

Signed ________________________

Dated ________________________

 

 

To identify which practice direction pre action protocols have been infringed as per the witness statement see this link PRACTICE DIRECTION – PROTOCOLS

__________________

 

 

 

 

DOWNLOAD THE N244 FORM FROM THIS LINK

 

Her Majesty's Courts Service -Forms and Guidance

 

part 1 write your name

 

part 2 you are the claimant

 

in box 3 write the following

Quote:

An order (a draft of which is attached) that the Defendant do search for and disclose the documents listed in the Schedule attached to the draft Order ("the Schedule") because the applicant and the respondent are likely to be parties to the same subsequent proceedings, the respondent's duty of disclosure in those proceedings would extend to the documents listed in the Schedule and disclosure is desirable in order to dispose fairely of the anticipated proceedings .

 

This application is made pursuant to s.33 Supreme Court Act 1981 and CPR 31.16.

part 4 tick yes

 

part 5 at hearing

 

part 6 0 hours 20 minutes

 

part 7 N/A

 

Part 8 District Judge

 

Part 9 Proposed Defendant / Respondent

 

Part 10 tick witness statement

 

 

DONT DO A THING YET

 

TRY AND DIGEST IT

 

IT WILL COST £75 WHICH YOU WILL GET BACK IF NOT ON BENEFITS

[Martel]

Thanks, Post. I will have to read it (post 83) several times in order to make sense of it.

 

Am assuming the strategy is to rattle Welcome's cage and maybe even get rid of the loan????

 

MX

[postggj]

The Whole Point Of This Is To Force Welcome To Release The Underwritng Sheets

 

It Shows All The Commission Payments They Made To Themself

 

Welcome Elite Brokers

 

They Will Have To Comply

 

They Will Sooner Say Lets Get Rid Of You Rather Than Release That Document

 

If They Say There Is No Underwriting Sheet

 

I Have Many Documents That Say Welcome Elite Brokers As Evidence

 

And If They Respond To The Court No Underwriting Sheets,

God Help Them

[Martel]

Post, even your typing is super confident! Okay, will really concentrate on absorbing the claims.

 

Sorry to go 'off thread' but I am panicking about another problem in the Legal Issues department. My thread is 'Big overdraft must respond to court claim issued by Incasso please help' (I know, not exactly catchy!). Hungrybear drafted my defence but I need help completing my AQ, which is due a week from tomorrow. I know ODs are a specialist area but might you know any Caggers who could advise me?

 

Sorry to hijack my own thread (is that even possible?) - hope I haven't transgressed a CAG law but I am worried!

 

Thanks,

MX

[postggj]

58

 

Well

Well

Well

 

Thats Quite A Response From Welcome In Reply To My Letter In Post 58

 

Taking Note And Get Back To You

 

My Opinion Is Smoke Screen And Mirrors

[postggj]

Tell Me Martel

 

Have You Ever Been Sent A Copy Of Your Agreement

 

Welcome Seem To Be In Walter Mitty Land

[Martel]

Yes, they've sent it to me over and over agin, including one that is blown up to almost poster size (I had complained the others weren't legible).

 

Will look for it.

 

MX

[postggj]

Can You Post It Up Minus Personal Info But Leave In The Figures

[postggj]

Get To You Later Tonight Ozzy

[Martel]

Can You Post It Up Minus Personal Info But Leave In The Figures

 

 

Really sorry, I'm not able to get it onto the thread but you should have it now.

 

Mx

[postggj]

Give Me Half Hour To Decode It

[ozzywizard]

Thanks Post, im off to work now so not on comp till 10pm + anyways. laters. . .

[postggj]

Please Confirm

 

Amount Of Credit £24914.18

No Insurance

Acceptance Fee Of £235

Monthly Payment £433.54

Apr 21.7

 

How Many Monthly Payments

 

Does It Say 180

[Martel]

All correct, including 180 monthly payments.

[postggj]

Ill Go On 180 Months

 

Amount Of Credit £24914.18 Over 180 Months, With A £235 Acceptance Fee At An Apr Of 21.7%

 

That Gives A Monthly Repayment Of £433.89

Interest Will Be £53,187.56 (ouch)

Total Repayable £78101.74 (double Ouch And Criminal)

 

So Now We Add The Acceptance Fee £235 To The Interest £53,187.56 Gives A Charge For Credit Of £53422.56

Now Add That To The Amount Of Credit (advance) £24914.18

 

Gives A Total Repayable £78,336.74 (got The Brandy)

Devide By 180 Months Gives A Monthly Repayment Of £435.20

 

When You Have Paid Off This Agreement, You Will Be Short By £299.54

[Martel]

Makes me so ill.

 

Can this usury be legit?

 

Have just located a breakdown from Welcome and your figures are within a few pounds of theirs.

 

What to do next????

[postggj]

Did You Have A Previouse Loan Turned Into A Secured One

[Martel]

Yes, for £4,500.

 

Think I got it either nov 06 or Jan 07.