Welcome Secured Loan Mess!

[Martel]

Post, HUGE thanks!!! MXXX

[postggj]

Martel

 

With Out Going Over Your Thread Again,

 

You Say You Signed The Secured Agreement At Home,

 

Were You Given A 14 Day Cooling Off Period

 

How Long After You Signed The Agreement Did Welcome Release The Funds

[Martel]

Hi Post,

 

Sorry for the delay but I'm getting in a muddle here - I had 2 current accounts and am trying to figure out which one the Welcome money was deposited in. It doesn't help that I don't know the precise amount of the secured loan deposited, as it absorbed an unsecured Welcome loan and I don't know what the settlement amount was for that.

 

Here's what I remember happening - because I couldn't get to Welcome's offices, an operative came to my property in Nov '07. They had (helpfully!) completed a Demands and Needs Statement and included PPI in my application/agreement (I've just stumbled across these docs in my files). I refused to sign (I'd never agreed to PPI), he went away and they then posted the application/agreement form to me, which was lost in the post. Welcome sent another - which I signed, dated 18 Jan 08. The Welcome signature is dated 14 Feb 08.

 

The only amount that I can identify as possibly Welcome money was credited by cheque on 13 Dec 07 - which, if I can confirm it IS the Welcome money, means I rec'd the money about a month before signing the agreement (!).

 

There doesn't seem to be a comparable amount AFTER the date of my application/agreement, so I'm 99% sure that's the case.

 

I don't know how best to confirm that transaction, as I've fallen out with the bank and asking for a copy of the credited cheque might open a can of worms. I suppose I could call Welcome and ask them for the precise loan figure, or is this another can of worms? Or should I care?

 

Sorry that my records (and selective memory) are letting me down but I'm almost certain I rec'd the Welcome money in Dec 07, I signed the agreement in Jan 08 and Welcome signed in Feb 08.

 

But I will get confirmation somehow!

 

Is the unsigned Legal Charge remotely helpful?

 

Thanks so much for all your help, MX

[postggj]

What An Usigned And UN-Witnessed Legal Charge

 

No Worries

 

Check Back Tomorow And Ill Have The Letter For You

 

We Will Add Or Deleate Things Before You Send It

[Martel]

It's an undated Legal Charge, without a Customer Number.

 

I've signed it (my signature is undated). It has my name and address (though no title number)

 

The two Witness signature boxes are blank.

 

Don't suppose Welcome could just conjure up an executed version?

 

HUGE thanks for ALL your help, MXX

[postggj]

I Have Enough To Get Cracking

[Martel]

You're amazing....thanks for your advocacy and generosity, MX

[postggj]

XXXX

XXXX

XXX

Welcome financial services

Compliance

Ruddington fields Business Park

Ruddington

Nottingham

Ng11 6nz

 

Date

 

Agreement number

 

 

COMPLAINT UNDER YOUR ELEVATED COMPLAINTS PROCEDURE

Dear sir/madam

 

Please treat this letter as a complaint under your complaints procedure.

On xyz, I requested from welcome financial services a true copy of my secured loan agreement. This was by way of an s.77 to s.79 of the consumer credit act with my executed signature on the agreement.

 

I AM ASTONISHED BY YOUR RESPONSE

 

QUOTE

 

We would comment that this satisfies our obligations under s.77 CCA, Regulations 3(1) of the CCA (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983, and recent guidance from the OFT. We would refer you to the relevant sections of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983, and point out that there may be omitted from the true copy:

 

a. any information relating to the debtor, hirer or surety;

b. any signature box, signature or date of signature;

c. the name and address of debtor or hirer

 

We would also remind you that a 'true copy' as referred to at s.77 CCA need not be an exact copy, but must contain every material provision (Burchill v Thompson [1920] 2KB 80).

 

We would further advise you that this was confirmed in the judgement given in Basil & Amanda Rankine v HFC etc [2009] CCLR 3, which was a high court case, and therefore remains binding.

 

NOW LETS TAKE YOUR STATEMENT ONE STEP AT A TIME

 

As you are no doubt aware the The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and copies of Documents) regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557) is only applicable in conjunction with The Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations) 1983 (SI 1983/1569) and are only applicable to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 sections 58,62,63,63 and 64. My request is a statutory request made under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 77/78 and therefore the copy of the credit agreement requested must be a true copy of the fully executed agreement.

 

I NOW DRAW YOUR ATTENTION TO YOUR REFERENCE TO BURCHILL V THOMPSON {1920} 2KB 80

 

As for the 1920 case which is clearly NOT CCA, it relates to omission of the term 'per annum' in the filed copy of the agreement:

In Burchill v. Thompson (1920) 2 KB 80, it was held that the omission of the words "per annum"

after the statement of the rate of the interest to be paid, prevents the copy

from being a true copy

 

Perhaps You are implying a negative assertion that because apr is included then it is enforceable.

 

 

BUT LAST AND NOT LEAST THE FAMOUS RANKIN JUDGEMENT

 

It is well known that the Rankine case quoted was brought from a prospective of greed on their part, the sort publicity for their % based 'we'll get rid of all your debts company. Also the case was about dodging what was basically enforceable agreement from what I have read.

 

In the rankine case ONLY section 78 is referred to. Also the rankines are taking the institutions to court.

 

The rankines sort to use 78(6) to prevent enforcement by the commencement of court action and then went on to argue MOSTLY about Default notices.

 

They claimed that they never got documents requested under 78(1) and the judge found them to be shall we say disingenuous.

 

 

The issue of true copies is addressed in para's29/30 of the judgment and concerns the 3 copies of the agreement generated at the time the agreement is entered into.

 

In paragraph 30 - issue 5 - of the judgment it specifies that the issue of true copies was not pleaded and no evidence was entered in support of the issue

 

 

Lenders warned over debt recovery

 

 

Before I pass my complaint up to the office of fair trading, ime giving you the opportunity to explain your actions to mislead

 

 

 

Lenders must not mislead borrowers that their debts are enforceable, when in fact they are not, the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) says.

The regulator also says many debtors have, in turn, been misled about their ability to escape their debts.

 

The OFT's comments are part of an intervention in a series of High Court test cases about the enforceability of debts under the Consumer Credit Act.

 

The outcome could affect thousands of potential courts cases.

 

The OFT has supplied its draft guidance on part of the Consumer Credit Act (CCA) to Judge Waksman, who is hearing the cases in Manchester.

 

"The OFT's decision to prepare guidance at this time has primarily resulted from our concern that debtors are being misled as to the meaning and interpretation of sections 77-79 [of the Act] in particular," the OFT said in a letter to the judge.

 

"And on the other hand concern that some creditors appear not to understand the nature and extent of their obligations under these sections.

 

Enclosed is a request under the civil procedure rules for which I expect you to comply.

I await a response to my complaint.

 

 

Yours sincerely

Edited December 28, 2009 by postggj

[postggj]

Dear Sirs

 

Account number

 

I write with regards to the above account with your organisation.

 

I respectfully request that you provide me by return a copy of the credit agreement which bears my signature. I require this as i have reason to believe that there may be discrepancies within the agreement which may leave it improperly executed. Additionally I require the underwritig sheet or other documents showing any comission paid to you by any broker or you to a broker.

 

I believe the sale of payment protection insurance was due to miselling.

 

obviously if the agreement is improperly executed i would be entitled to ask the court to consider the agreement and make a declaration of the rights of parties to the agreement.

 

I must stress this request is NOT made pursuant to section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974 but is made pursuant to the Civil procedure ( Pre action protocols and Part 31.16) and therefore unsigned copy will not suffice, only a copy of the original contract in its unaltered form will suffice in these circumstances

 

Please confirm if you still hold a copy of my signed agreement and that you will provide me with this document.

 

I do not view this as an unreasonable request given that by supplying the document which i have asked for it will allow me to assess if my case has merit and will help to resolve matters possibly without the need to involve the court and will undoubtedly save costs on both sides

 

I look forward to your reply and would ask for a response by 4pm on XXXX Date

( Give 21 days to respond)

 

 

Regards

 

 

 

xxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

confirm you had ppi or any other insurance

Edited December 28, 2009 by postggj

[postggj]

thanks to all the caggers who helped in these bits of legislation

 

PT2537

 

CURLY BEN

 

HUNGRY BEAR TO NAME A FEW

 

MANY THANKS

[ozzywizard]

Exelent work !!! go get em !!!

[postggj]

this rollocks is comming out of compliance

 

do they have anybody who is competant to deal with complaints

 

it took me 30 minutes to do that reserch

 

cretins

[Martel]

thanks to all the caggers who helped in these bits of legislation

 

PT2537

 

CURLY BEN

 

HUNGRY BEAR TO NAME A FEW

 

MANY THANKS

 

Oh, Post, you are a GENIUS. The letters are absolutely incredible AND your style is so elegant - hope its not wasted on Welcome.

 

Am on it and down to the PO tomorrow AM.

 

Enormous thanks to you and PT, HB and CB!!!

 

MXXXX

[postggj]

Remember

 

Recorded Delievery

Thats A Must

 

Now Ime Going To Luv The Reply Welcome Give To Those Letters

[Martel]

Dear Sirs

 

Account number

 

I write with regards to the above account with your organisation.

 

I respectfully request that you provide me by return a copy of the credit agreement which bears my signature. I require this as i have reason to believe that there may be discrepancies within the agreement which may leave it improperly executed. Additionally I require the underwritig sheet or other documents showing any comission paid to you by any broker or you to a broker.

 

I believe the sale of payment protection insurance was due to miselling.

 

obviously if the agreement is improperly executed i would be entitled to ask the court to consider the agreement and make a declaration of the rights of parties to the agreement.

 

I must stress this request is NOT made pursuant to section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974 but is made pursuant to the Civil procedure ( Pre action protocols and Part 31.16) and therefore unsigned copy will not suffice, only a copy of the original contract in its unaltered form will suffice in these circumstances

 

Please confirm if you still hold a copy of my signed agreement and that you will provide me with this document.

 

I do not view this as an unreasonable request given that by supplying the document which i have asked for it will allow me to assess if my case has merit and will help to resolve matters possibly without the need to involve the court and will undoubtedly save costs on both sides

 

I look forward to your reply and would ask for a response by 4pm on XXXX Date

( Give 21 days to respond)

 

 

Regards

 

 

 

xxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

confirm you had ppi or any other insurance

 

Sorry, Post, just reread this (must have been delirious from your previous letter). Welcome TRIED to get me to sign the loan agreement with all insurances on it, but I refused (tho I still have that agreement, unsigned and the accompanying insurance pamphlet).

 

Welcome have sent me the agreement and it seems to be on the level, with my signature and Welcome's - the sticking point may be the cooling off period, as I believe i recd the money a moth before my signature.

 

The document that lacks signatures is the Legal Charge - it's undated, lacks the account number and my signature is not witnessed.

 

I know I'm making thins difficult as I don't have a scanner.

 

I have previously scanned version that I can send direct to you (but somehow not able to get it onto my thread). Shall I?

 

Sorry if this is awkward.

 

MX

[postggj]

Relax

Relax

 

Ask Your Self

Why Do Welcome Want You To Sign A New Agreement

(desperation Comes To Mind)

 

Because They Dont Have The Original

A New Agreement Will Cancel Out The Previouse With All Rights And Protection

 

Thats The Best Thing You Ever Did By Not Signing That Agreement

 

Just Send The Letters

 

It Will Only Complicate Matters

 

Welcome Are Well Aware Of The Score

[Martel]

Haha! Ok, you ARE the Oracle so I bow to your experience!

 

I did sign an agreement (just not the one with all the insurance sneaked on to it). I take you point re the original.

 

Letters going out tomorrow.

 

Post, thanks so much! MXXX

[Martel]

So, today I get a letter from Hayley Lowe in the Customer Complaints Dept. in response to my two letters:

 

"In order for us to carry out your request please can you issue the relevant fee:

1) £1.00 will entitle you to a statement of account ad loan agreement under the consumer credit act

2) £10.00 for a full Data Protection request, where we provide all information held by Welcome Financial Services Ltd.

.......Please note we cannot process your request until we have received the relevant fees."

 

Well, they've already HAD the fees - a £10 postal order to Lewis, who then passed the request on to Welcome. Lewis returned my CCA request and pound coin. I then CCA'd Welcome and enclosed a pound coin - which the same Hayley Lowe acknowledged (incorrectly as a fee for the SAR). Hayley seems to be multi-tasking - she then claimed to be writing from the Compliance-Services office! Welcome also deducted the pound from my acc't. I wrote a letter to them, pointing out their inaccuracies.

 

What unbelievable chaos and incompetence! It's like they don't even bother to make a copy of their correspondence, much less keep it on file!

 

Oh, and Lewis has started calling me again. I'v put them on m Choose to Refuse list. Hope I haven't hurt their feelings!

 

I've been reading the Secured Welcome Loan - Help! thread (great stuff!) and noticed that the DN MUST state a date not just 'within 14 days'. Though Welcome have sent me and wrongly dated and unsigned one, not on letterhead, I happen to have the original and they do not state a date, only 'within 14 days'. Am assuming this works in my favour?

 

Post, I seriously hope you're on the mend and not risking anything on the icy surfaces!!

 

MXX

 

Welcome have ALREADY responded to my CCA request and to my SAR (only partially for the latter, with many undated and unsigned docs and letters).

 

I assume I should write back and enclose copies of relevant correspondence and the postal order?

[Martel]

Well, i wrote back to Welcome and proved I had already paid CCA request and SAR fees. No reply to that letter BUT today I rec'd a letter from Lewis:

 

'We are only allowed to hold your account on our records without any payment for a limited time before we have to take further action.....We are sure that a reasonable arrangement can be reached'.

 

I guess the best thing to do is to write a stiff letter to Welcome, explaining that the account is in dispute and cc Lewis......any other advice?

 

Thanks in advance, MX

[postggj]

lewis is welcome

 

no need for a cca request

you have allready done that

they know the law

 

just ignore

[Martel]

Post, as ever, endless thanks for your advice. Really, really appreciate it.

 

Hope your knee is better and that you're leaping around like a young stag!

 

MX

[ozzywizard]

Hey Martel, I wouldnt grace them with a letter. they have had the "account in dispute" letter for non compliance of the CCA request so no need for any more correspondance, they should never of sent it to their lewis division . .

[postggj]

martel

 

any response to my letter in post 65

 

times up

[ray singh]

Dear Sirs

 

Account number

 

I write with regards to the above account with your organisation.

 

I respectfully request that you provide me by return a copy of the credit agreement which bears my signature. I require this as i have reason to believe that there may be discrepancies within the agreement which may leave it improperly executed. Additionally I require the underwritig sheet or other documents showing any comission paid to you by any broker or you to a broker.

 

I believe the sale of payment protection insurance was due to miselling.

 

obviously if the agreement is improperly executed i would be entitled to ask the court to consider the agreement and make a declaration of the rights of parties to the agreement.

 

I must stress this request is NOT made pursuant to section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974 but is made pursuant to the Civil procedure ( Pre action protocols and Part 31.16) and therefore unsigned copy will not suffice, only a copy of the original contract in its unaltered form will suffice in these circumstances

 

Please confirm if you still hold a copy of my signed agreement and that you will provide me with this document.

 

I do not view this as an unreasonable request given that by supplying the document which i have asked for it will allow me to assess if my case has merit and will help to resolve matters possibly without the need to involve the court and will undoubtedly save costs on both sides

 

I look forward to your reply and would ask for a response by 4pm on XXXX Date

( Give 21 days to respond)

 

 

Regards

 

 

 

xxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

confirm you had ppi or any other insurance

 

 

 

 

 

just a quick question, can this letter be used for requests for agreements, in place of section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974 and without the need to send £1 fee??

[postggj]

Yes It Can

 

But Thats The First Step In Three Letters Before An Enforcement Order

 

Its To Be Used As A Last Resort When The Creditor Refuses To Give You A True Copy Of Your Agreement Instead Send A Reconstructed One With Out Your Signature

 

You Will Need To Show The Court All Atempts At Getting The Agreement Through A Cca Request First

 

THAT GOES FOR INSURANCE UNDERWRITING SHEETS AS WELL