UKPC now enforcing parking @ my development

[bushbrother]

Hi all, my first post here ...

 

I purchased a new flat about 18 months ago and it is on a private road (I called the council who told me that) and I presume it is owned by the developer (Taylor Wimpey). When purchasing the flat we were told each flat comes with 1 allocated space but that the private road would also remain a parking area for visitors etc.

 

After about 6 months double yellow lines were painted over night and a couple of months after that UKPC came and erected parking signs. I contacted the developer and told them that I was not told there would be any parking enforcement and they flat out told me that they had to keep the access road clear as they had an agreement with the boat yard at the end of the road. (perhaps I should have said that before, the development is on the Thames and there is a boat yard at the far end of the private road). Unfortunately I do not have anything in writing

 

Now I only have 1 car and I park it in my space, but the developers have not marked where the visitor parking is and so other residents with 2 cars always use them. This means that family and friends risk getting ticketed when visiting as there is nowhere else to park. Now I have taken this issue up with Taylor Wimpey but they say they are not moving on the restrictions, even though there is nothing in the lease about restrictions.

 

What rights do I actually have, in the lease it states that I have rights to access visitor parking and my parking, but that access-ways must be passable. Now this is a double lane road (easy room for 2 cars to pass each other) so that one line of cars parked there would in no way restrict access. Is UKPC acting legally? Do the developers have the right to have them there?

 

Any help/advice appreciated.

[Al27]

in the lease it states that I have rights to access visitor parking and my parking, but that access-ways must be passable

 

the private road would also remain a parking area for visitors etc.

 

Have you told Taylor Wimpey what the lease says?

[bushbrother]

Have you told Taylor Wimpey what the lease says?

 

Yup, I told them that I was informed the road would remain a parking area for visitors, they just tell me thats not in the lease (which its not) and that the terms of parking there have changed, and as they own the road they have the right to do that. As I do not have the fact they told me this in writing there is not much I can do ...

 

They say that If I park there I am blocking the access right and therefore breaking my lease, but the road is double lane so I do not see how this is possible ...

[Blagton]

Hi all, my first post here ...

 

I purchased a new flat about 18 months ago and it is on a private road (I called the council who told me that) and I presume it is owned by the developer (Taylor Wimpey). When purchasing the flat we were told each flat comes with 1 allocated space but that the private road would also remain a parking area for visitors etc.

 

I'd check exactly who owns what and what parts/roads are adopted or unadopted by the council. Don't take somebodies word for it.

 

After about 6 months double yellow lines were painted over night and a couple of months after that UKPC came and erected parking signs. I

 

Yellow (or any other coloured lines on private land/unadopted roads mean nothing.

 

Blagton

[bushbrother]

I'd check exactly who owns what and what parts/roads are adopted or unadopted by the council. Don't take somebodies word for it.

 

Thanks for the quick reply, I checked on the Surrey County Council "interactive map" and the adopted "line" ends as it goes into my road. If I needed to confirm this, how would I do so?

 

Yellow (or any other coloured lines on private land/unadopted roads mean nothing.

 

Sorry for being a bit slow, but how do you know this? Is it written somewhere? I just want to get my facts straight before I try to confront them on this ... so you are saying If I park there and get fined UKPC cannot charge me as the yellow lines are not valid?

[kiptower]

yellow lines etc on Private property have no legal standing

 

they cannot be subject to a "Traffic Management Order" which on Public roads they have to be

[bushbrother]

yellow lines etc on Private property have no legal standing

 

they cannot be subject to a "Traffic Management Order" which on Public roads they have to be

 

So how can UKPC issue fines? Are they acting illegally? How do I stop them?

 

Also how do I check who owns the road? Do I need to pay for a search?

[kiptower]

they cannot issue a "FINE" in law its an invoice and in 99.999999% unenforcible, UKPC wont go to Court because like most PPC's they know they are going to loose if you defend any Court action..

 

Its a [problem]

 

you could upset Wimpeys back asking just how much they get from UKPC on each invoice they issue,

 

you might just find out that it was arranged by Wimpeys @ a local manager level , now if 2+2 = 4 someone is linning their pockets if you get my drift.

 

you need to go through your Lease with a fine tooth comb and if nothing there , the Question to Wimpeys just what in the lease gives them the right to use a PPC, dont accept them saying there is nothing in the Lease so they can do what they want.

 

Did Wimpeys or their Agent have any form of consultation regarding the parking

[bushbrother]

they cannot issue a "FINE" in law its an invoice and in 99.999999% unenforcible, UKPC wont go to Court because like most PPC's they know they are going to loose if you defend any Court action..

 

Its a [problem]

 

Very interesting ... the plot thinkens

 

Did Wimpeys or their Agent have any form of consultation regarding the parking

 

NO, they wrote to us about 2 days before it happened simply stating that there had been complaints from the boat house about access and so they were painting double yellows. Then with respect to UKPC they again wrote a letter a week before just stating that it was going to be enforced, nothing asking if we thought it was ok or not.

 

I will go back to Taylor Wimpey and tell them that they do not have the right to paint the lines and see what happens.

 

Many thanks for the help!

[kiptower]

they can paint PINK lines if they want but they have legal right to enforce them

[Blagton]

Thanks for the quick reply, I checked on the Surrey County Council "interactive map" and the adopted "line" ends as it goes into my road. If I needed to confirm this, how would I do so?

 

 

You might nip down to your local Planing Office and request copies to confirm where exactly the Road becomes unadopted and Private.

 

Check with the Land Registry who owns what. Whilst your developer might be claiming to own certain parts they may not be landowners of the whole area.

 

Do they own the land at "the other side" of the road - Who owns the boat yard and where does their land extend to ? etc.

 

Who are UKPC operating with - have they put signs in areas they do not have the landowners approval ?

 

Sorry for being a bit slow, but how do you know this? Is it written somewhere?

 

Because thats the case - For Yellow Lines or other Markings used in Traffic Management they have to comply with certain regulations and to be enforceable be on Public Highways.

 

On Private Land or an Unadopted/Private Roads they have no legal standing at all.

 

I just want to get my facts straight before I try to confront them on this ... so you are saying If I park there and get fined UKPC cannot charge me as the yellow lines are not valid?

 

UKPC cannot Fine you - they could issue you an Invoice but you are then entering into the same game as you do with PPC's operating in Shopping Car Parks and so on. Advise would be Ignore anything they send you.

 

Assuming you accept you entered into this contract with UKPC it would seem you are not being charged to park and under Contract Law they could only claim for any losses. The Landowner have no losses therefore have nothing to claim. Whatever amount UKPC show on their Invoice doesn't matter.

 

Blagton

Edited November 30, 2009 by Blagton
Typos.

[Blagton]

I will go back to Taylor Wimpey and tell them that they do not have the right to paint the lines and see what happens.

 

But they do - it they are landowners they can paint whatever coloured lines they wish of any size or design - the point being that they have no meaning when it comes to enforcing parking regulations.

 

 

Blagton

[letshelp]

Only the Police or Council would enforce REALdouble yellow lines. As stated double yellow lines on private property have no meaning whatsoever.

regards

[bushbrother]

Thanks everyone for the replies, I understand things a lot better now. One last question, I know maybe I am being a little too cautios, but is there anywhere within the law where it states that parking regulations cannot be applied to unadopted roads?

 

I just don't want to be caught out at a later stage by the developer, If I can point them to a specific statement that says that these parking regulations cannot be enforced on unadoped roads, or something to that effect that would be great.

 

Thanks.

[kiptower]

private parking is a civil agreement, there is no law

 

if you never agreed to or it was part of your original lease

 

they cannot come along and invent something then say its now part of your lease

[bushbrother]

private parking is a civil agreement, there is no law

 

if you never agreed to or it was part of your original lease

 

they cannot come along and invent something then say its now part of your lease

 

OK, understood. Just that my developers seem to be as slippery as these PPC's and I want to make sure I have all my facts straight.

 

So am I correct in saying there is nothing written in the "parking laws" about private roads as the laws simply do not apply there?

[kiptower]

your right there is no such thing as PARKING LAWS on private property

[bushbrother]

Thanks very much, sorry for being a worrier I will keep you all informed with what happens ...

[Al27]

I'd just put a photocopy of your lease on the dash and park on the lines. If you get 5, 10, 50 tickets it doesn't matter - you'd just ignore them.

[buzby]

Then you get clamped! Ignoring tickets is all very well - but with valuable property, it pays to look after your interests. To have any say in the use of parking restrictions you would need to have a share in access rights and you probably do not have this - only your flat and the 'space' seemingly unallocated.

 

If there is a residents association, they should have been consulted, but if it has simply been imposed by the developers, then they may have every (legal) right to decide how users make use of it. You may need to get together with others to have any power to change or at least have the parking allocated - as from what I can see, I could come down, park in your space, and STILL not get a ticket!

[bushbrother]

Then you get clamped! Ignoring tickets is all very well - but with valuable property, it pays to look after your interests. To have any say in the use of parking restrictions you would need to have a share in access rights and you probably do not have this - only your flat and the 'space' seemingly unallocated.

 

If there is a residents association, they should have been consulted, but if it has simply been imposed by the developers, then they may have every (legal) right to decide how users make use of it. You may need to get together with others to have any power to change or at least have the parking allocated - as from what I can see, I could come down, park in your space, and STILL not get a ticket!

 

I am not quite sure which post you are replying to here ...

 

There is no clamping, only ticketing with a £90 "fine". You are probably right about my "allocated parking" although this is specified in my lease as a certain number and refers out to a plan. The lease also states that I have rights of access.

[buzby]

Clamping remains an option should the 'tickets' not be paid. Your rights of access need to be specified, as if they simply state you have rights to traverse the private road, rather than a say in the possible enforcement of parking measures.

 

I'm sure you might welcome your parking space 'protected' in much the same way as the boatyard does its access route. surely your space should be YOURS, and not a two-car family's overspill? I could see my welcoming such 'enforcement' if they additionally protected my parking rights! (All at their expense!)

[bushbrother]

Clamping remains an option should the 'tickets' not be paid. Your rights of access need to be specified, as if they simply state you have rights to traverse the private road, rather than a say in the possible enforcement of parking measures.

 

I'm sure you might welcome your parking space 'protected' in much the same way as the boatyard does its access route. surely your space should be YOURS, and not a two-car family's overspill? I could see my welcoming such 'enforcement' if they additionally protected my parking rights! (All at their expense!)

 

Yes I do welcome the restrictions, as I follow them and it has cleared the road up, the bit I object to is that others resort to parking in the so called "visitor" spaces and my visitors have no other place to park and have been ticketed. I was looking to find out what rights they have.

 

I would have thought that if clamping was an option it has to be made clear on the signage. It is not written on any sign. Also others on this forum seem to think that the tickets are not tickets anyway and are just invoices due to the fact this is an unadopted road ... I am now confused.

[buzby]

There are some subtelties - which I'll expand on. The displaced visitor parking is a problem created by the imposition of the developers wishes, therefore as they created it, they've got to resolve it. For example you get a designated space and permit, and a 'visitor' pass for use when required. Clearly UKPC would not do the admin for this, but if multiple car households are abusing the spaces, again, this is the developer's problem - they cannot expect to ignore it.

 

As for 'rights' - UKPC can ticket (or invoice, if you prefer) but either way it remains the drivers decision whether they wish to pay. The difference is if several invoices are issued and not paid, a clamp could be used to encourage payment - not on a 1-off basis, but if there is a pile of outstanding invoices (say, 3 or more) and they want to turn the screws. This isn't public property. so it is an effort to resolve 'issues', as always, they have to prove the parker consented to the T&C of using the ground.

[bushbrother]

There are some subtelties - which I'll expand on. The displaced visitor parking is a problem created by the imposition of the developers wishes, therefore as they created it, they've got to resolve it. For example you get a designated space and permit, and a 'visitor' pass for use when required. Clearly UKPC would not do the admin for this, but if multiple car households are abusing the spaces, again, this is the developer's problem - they cannot expect to ignore it.

 

As for 'rights' - UKPC can ticket (or invoice, if you prefer) but either way it remains the drivers decision whether they wish to pay. The difference is if several invoices are issued and not paid, a clamp could be used to encourage payment - not on a 1-off basis, but if there is a pile of outstanding invoices (say, 3 or more) and they want to turn the screws. This isn't public property. so it is an effort to resolve 'issues', as always, they have to prove the parker consented to the T&C of using the ground.

 

Understood. I am currently in discussion with the developers about the visitor parking. Permits sound like a possible solution. Thanks.