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Trying to compile a list of advice for a RK - help?

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Hi all :)

 

Obviously I am aware not to post up too much info that would lead to identification of the RK that has been hit with a lovely PCN from our friends G24, so please bear with me while I try to explain in code!

 

Not long ago, the car in question was parked in a 'free' car park. (I've since been down and had a look, and yes, there are 'warning signs regarding the 1hour free parking). However, RK did not notice any of the signs, had parked there hundreds of times before, but had never been over the 1 hour limit until recently, when the car was parked for around 2 hours.

 

Lo and behold, G24 sent the PCN. RK is not the driver, never has been, and it's also a motability car. I did not see any text on the signs saying Blue Badge holders were void from the 1hour limit. (RK is awaiting renewal of an expired BB, but there was also a second BB holder in the car that day).

 

RK is doing the freaking out about 'fines' and debt collection agencies etc. We (my partner and I) have assured RK that these 'fines' are not worth the paper they are printed on - thanks to this wonderful site, which I accidentally came across! (But which I will now always head to should I have a query!). RK has assued us that s/he will not respond in any form to any of the letters that will no doubt fall through his/her letterbox. In fact, we have the PCN letter with the 'photographic evidence'.

 

I've been compiling some basic information, gleaned from comments, posts and advice on this forum, and have basically got this far:

 

1. IGNORE all correspondence

2. DO NOT engage in any form of communication via threatening letters recieved

3. Give us ALL the letters that arrive

4. There is no legal basis to demand money

5. Only police, traffic wardens, magistrates etc can issue a PCN

6. RK had a legitimate BB holder in car at time

7. It is up to G24 to prove the car was parked there continuously for the 2 hours

8. A purchase was made from the store withing the 2 hours the car was parked there - we have reciepts to prove this

9. Unless it is a PCN issued by one of those at #5, it is a [problem]

10. The RK has NO legal obligation to disclose the driver of the car at the time, unless a police issued s.172 is issued

 

All of this has been advice etc posted on this forum, that I have copied to word doc, to print off for the RK.

 

However, my feeling is that the RK will at some point get into discussions with either G24 or the threatening debt letters from 'solicitors'. S/he will be terrified of losing home or other belongings if threatened with bailiffs, which we have assured WIL NOT happen.

 

Is there anything else I can add to the word doc of advice, before I print it off and give it to the RK?

 

Also, if the RK does ignore us and try to 'appeal' this, what advice can you give? If RK does try to appeal, I will actually physically get involved with the communication side of things; I was the driver that day anyway and these idiots do not scare me, and I'd be quite happey to demand they prove the car was parked for that length of time (woops, forgot purse so had to leave, took 45 mins to drive to RK's house and back to car park ;)), woops they're harrassing valid BB holders and disabled motorists who are unable to walk the length of themselves within 15 minutes, woops I have a VERY good solicitor, woops I can spout some technicalities pertaining to fines and invoices and can spot empty threats a mile off, woops I have a reciept to prove a purchase from the store....etc etc (spot on this forum!! :D)

 

My hope is RK follows advice and ignores everything until the day an official court summons is produced, by which time both the RK and myself will have passed away from old age!

 

Does anyone have anything else to offer that I can add to my list of 'instructions' to RK?

 

TIA guys :D xx

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If you are more concerned about RK's well being than the PPC coming after you, you can always use the templates to get the RK to refer to you as the driver and you can then do as you wish.

 

Much as the current consensus is to ignore correspondence the "one size fits all" approach may not always be the best one and your situation may be one of those.


********************************************

Nothing in this post constitutes "advice" which I may not, in any event, be qualified to provide.

The only interpretation permitted on this post (or any others I may have made) is that this is what I would personally consider doing in the circumstances discussed. Each and every reader of this post or any other I may have made must take responsibility for forming their own view and making their own decision.

I receive an unwieldy number of private messages. I am happy to respond to messages posted on open forum but am unable to respond to private messages, seeking advice, when the substance of that message should properly be on the open forum.

Many thanks for your assistance and understanding on this.

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Hi all :)

 

Obviously I am aware not to post up too much info that would lead to identification of the RK that has been hit with a lovely PCN from our friends G24, so please bear with me while I try to explain in code!

 

There is really no need to do that, its all been heard before but anyway...

 

Not long ago, the car in question was parked in a 'free' car park. (I've since been down and had a look, and yes, there are 'warning signs regarding the 1hour free parking). However, RK did not notice any of the signs, had parked there hundreds of times before, but had never been over the 1 hour limit until recently, when the car was parked for around 2 hours.

 

Lo and behold, G24 sent the PCN. RK is not the driver, never has been, and it's also a motability car. I did not see any text on the signs saying Blue Badge holders were void from the 1hour limit. (RK is awaiting renewal of an expired BB, but there was also a second BB holder in the car that day).

 

Blue Badges on Private Car Parks (Supermarkets, Retail Parks etc) mean nothing. Doesn't matter if you have one or don't - doesn't come into the equation.

 

However, my feeling is that the RK will at some point get into discussions with either G24 or the threatening debt letters from 'solicitors'. S/he will be terrified of losing home or other belongings if threatened with bailiffs, which we have assured WIL NOT happen.

 

Is there anything else I can add to the word doc of advice, before I print it off and give it to the RK?

 

Probably not but if they won't listen then not much you can do but accept they may be happier adding to the bank balance of the PPC's.

 

Try and explain how PPC work - in addition use some analogies others have mentioned - you receive a Gas BIll for £50.00 however when you receive a reminder its gone up to £150.00. Does that seem a reasonable way of working from a reputable company ?

 

Whilst the letters from "Debt Collectors" and "Solicitors" would have you beleive Bailifs will be sent round next week and all manner of terrible things occur the following would need to have taken place:

 

1. PPC going to court

2. The Court ruling in favours of the PPC

3. Even then you refuse to pay the Court

 

As the PPC won't go to court then everything else doesn't really matter.

 

Also, if the RK does ignore us and try to 'appeal' this, what advice can you give? If RK does try to appeal, I will actually physically get involved with

 

There is no appeal process. It will fail and you will have wasted a letter, stamp and your time. They are in it to make money.

 

If the RK must communicate (which they would be advised not to do) but at the end of they day you feel is the best way forward to keep the RK happy then all I would suggest is that they state the alledged debt is denied. They were not the driver at the time and any further commincation would be considered harrasment. There is no need to elaborate further with any other details of the why's and wherefores or who was driving.

 

It may not stop the letters and by doing so you may well be seen as taking the bait.

 

The only means the PPC has got of trying to obtain money is by obtaining the RK details from the DVLA however as they were not driving it has nothing to do with them.

 

The paper trail of a PPC Invoice is well documented - there is little else to add. Let the RK know what to expect but continue to ignore.

 

 

Blagton

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Ok,

 

"Blue Badges on Private Car Parks (Supermarkets, Retail Parks etc) mean nothing. Doesn't matter if you have one or don't - doesn't come into the equation."

 

I, along with thousands of others, was not aware of this, particularly as supermarkets these days do insist on BB being shown when in a disabled parking bay. As the RK is not a driver, it is unlikely s/he will be aware of this either. Surely if a sign does not state BB are not exempt from free parking, then any kind of parking fine/charge is illegal?

 

 

 

 

"There is no appeal process. It will fail and you will have wasted a letter, stamp and your time. They are in it to make money."

 

We have told the RK there is no proper 'appeal' process, hence why in my orginal post I used the term 'appeal' lightly. I'd have thought though, that if PPC's were legal in issuing PCN's (such as perky has valiantly tried to claim many times before) then legally the PPC would have to accept an appeal, and conduct it through the legal and legitimate manner, without having to resort to threats of bailiffs, courts etc! Another case of double standards?!

 

As I have said, we have advised the RK regarding advice on the forum, and we are hopeful no communication will be entered into - RK has several fairly serious health issues to contend with and cannot afford to become too stressed out, which is why I think a correspondence might ensue - in an attempt to reduce stress, though my feeling is it'll only increase stress levels for RK :rolleyes:

 

 

 

"If you are more concerned about RK's well being than the PPC coming after you, you can always use the templates to get the RK to refer to you as the driver and you can then do as you wish."

 

But - I thought the PPC (as has been argued in another thread somewhere, again by Perky) didn't actually care who was or wasn't driving; the idea was to get someone/anyone to stump up this unfair demand for payment? Perky suggested that a court case was judged in favour of a PPC because the RK refused to name the driver. I can understand why so many people get concerned about all this when it would appear that a PPC can say that anyone linked to a car being parked for longer than the designated time can be requested to pay their parking charges!

 

Out of interest, where should any parking notices be displayed? There are loads dotted around this particular car park, but I strained to read them as they are high up - I have problems with looking up due to a previous neck injury due to compression on nerves, which leads to dizziness and has led to me passing out. I also know both the RK and the other passenger (with the valid BB) have spondylitis (spelling?) in the neck, meaning they really cannot tilt their heads back to look up. Therefore they would not have seen the notices anyway. Therefore, there were 3 of us travelling in the car that day, and none of us could actualy look up to read the signs properly, even if they were deemed as legal notices. (when I went to have a look to check to see if there were any signs, my partner was the one who read them out to me). Again, would this be of help to the RK in a court case if the PPC did decide to pursue with court action?

 

I know, I know, more questions and going round in circles, but I need as many answers on paper so we can help the RK decide what is in their own best interests to do regarding this matter. As with anyone, what the RK decides to do is up to them, but at least they will have an informed choice - pay or not pay, ignore or not ignore.

 

Thanks for responses :)

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Perky suggested that a court case was judged in favour of a PPC because the RK refused to name the driver.

 

The RK *was* the driver. The RK cannot be party to any alleged contract if he wasn't the driver. Fact of law.

 

Out of interest, where should any parking notices be displayed?

Anywhere as long as they are clear. If somebody is attempting to form a contract with you, the onus is really on them to make the offer. You cannot consider or accept if the other side hasn't made an offer.

 

 

All I will say is that G24 have NEVER done court and they NEVER will do.

 

I'd go with Bernie's advice though - just tell them you were driving and use one of the templates.

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You referred, in an earlier post, to a "fine".

Always remember that it is not a fine, it is an unenforcible [problem] invoice.


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You are overcomplicating things for yourself and for the RK. Its a [problem]. Ignore G24, nothing bad will happen. G24 will waste a few more letters. Nothing bad will happen. Ignore G24.

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If you're worried about ignoring the letters, send them to us and we'll ignore them for you. :lol:


If this has been useful to you, please click on the scales at bottom left of post. Thanks.

 

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Here's what you do. Search the forums for a copy of the letter G24 send to someone who appeals. Put a copy in a sealed envelope and give it to the RK. Tell them to then appeal to G24, and when they get a reply, open the envelope and compare the two letters.

It should then be easy to convince them that your advice is sound and should be followed.

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Ok,

 

"Blue Badges on Private Car Parks (Supermarkets, Retail Parks etc) mean nothing. Doesn't matter if you have one or don't - doesn't come into the equation."

 

I, along with thousands of others, was not aware of this, particularly as ....

 

You should, its quite clear.

 

About the Blue Badge Scheme : Directgov - Disabled people

 

About the scheme

 

The concessions provided under the scheme apply to on-street parking only.

Badge holders may park on single or double yellow lines for up to three hours in England and Wales, except where there is a ban on loading or unloading.

There is no time limit for parking on yellow lines in Scotland.

Badge holders may park for free and for as long as they need to at on-street parking meters and pay-and-display machines, unless there is a traffic sign specifying a time limit for holders of Blue Badges.

Where a time limit is in force, you must display both the Blue Badge and the special blue parking disc showing time of arrival.

While the scheme operates throughout the UK, there are small variations in its application in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Please see the relevant website for further information. The information on this page relates to England unless specified.

 

Where the scheme does not apply

 

The Blue Badge Scheme does not apply to off-street car parks, private roads and at most airports.

You can find airport plans showing the location of parking spaces for disabled people on the Blue Badge map.

 

The scheme does not fully apply in four central London boroughs:

  • City of London
  • City of Westminster
  • Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea
  • part of the London Borough of Camden

"There is no appeal process. It will fail and you will have wasted a letter, stamp and your time. They are in it to make money."

 

We have told the RK there is no proper 'appeal' process, hence why in my orginal post I used the term 'appeal' lightly. I'd have thought though, that if PPC's were legal in issuing PCN's (such as perky has valiantly tried to claim many times before) then legally the PPC would have to accept an appeal, and conduct it through the legal and legitimate manner, without having to resort to threats of bailiffs, courts etc! Another case of double standards?!

 

There is no appeal process in the sense that when you appeal - they alone act as judge and jury. Your appeal will be rejected - they are not going to turn down the chance of you sending some money on the basis you beleive your appeal has been fairly considered.

 

 

As I have said, we have advised the RK regarding advice on the forum, and we are hopeful no communication will be entered into - RK has several fairly serious health issues to contend with and cannot afford to become too stressed out, which is why I think a correspondence might ensue - in an attempt to reduce stress, though my feeling is it'll only increase stress levels for RK :rolleyes:

 

We are aware it can be a concern - very serious concern to some RK's as in this case. That's the PPC's Busines Model - make such people beleive that they have no option to pay otherwise all matter of things will happen.

 

If you can't convince the RK that after a few letters which they must ignore/pass on to you nothing will happen then you could respond with the details of who was (Yourself). You have though then provided the PPC's with a potential glimmer of hope by giving them the driver details. The chances are they will still give up after a while but they may pursue you just that little bit longer.

 

But - I thought the PPC (as has been argued in another thread somewhere, again by Perky) didn't actually care who was or wasn't driving; the idea was to get someone/anyone to stump up this unfair demand for payment? Perky suggested that a court case was judged in favour of a PPC because the RK refused to name the driver. I can understand why so many people get concerned about all this when it would appear that a PPC can say that anyone linked to a car being parked for longer than the designated time can be requested to pay their parking charges!

 

On one hand you seem to be aware of the score yet on the other, as has been mentioned you seem to be overcomplicating the matter.

 

Indeed PPC's don't care who pays them there money hence the appearance on the original Invoice of a Penalty Charge Notice and wording that would suggest if the RK wasn't driving they should inform them who was.

 

Out of interest, where should any parking notices be displayed? There are loads dotted around this particular car park, but I strained to read them as they are high up - I have problems with looking up due to a previous.....

 

Why do you think they put them in such positions with small print ?

 

I know, I know, more questions and going round in circles, but I need as many answers on paper so we can help the RK decide what is in their own

 

You have the one answer you need already.

 

Blagton

Edited by Blagton

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