Paypal claim and the small claims court...

[Vonsworld]

Hello

 

On Ebay I recently sold an expensive £600 video recorder to a bidder in Italy who paid using Paypal. The recorder was in full working order when shipped from the UK, but after receiving the item, the buyer now claims the recorder is faulty.

 

The buyer has now started a claims process with Paypal to obtain a refund, and whilst the claim is being considered, Paypal has frozen funds in my account to cover the refund should it be granted.

 

I have offered to refund the full payment once the buyer has returned to recorder to me, in complete and undamaged condition. I think this offer is quite fair?

 

However having read elsewhere about Paypal claims, it is possible that they will issue a refund without the buyer having to first return the item. In other words the buyer could end up with a refund and then not bother to

return the recorder (which possibly, dare I suggest, may not be faulty at all!).

 

If this worst case scenario happens, who should I sue in the county court? Perhaps a small claim against Paypal, or one of the new European Small Claims against the buyer in Italy?

 

Thanks for your advice..

[ashmk]

I think you should prepare yourself for the worse. This is an all to common story from people who have used Paypal.

 

Search the forum for 'Paypal' and 'Chargeback' and im sure you will find plenty of stories from people who have beed ripped off using paypal. Paypal is not safe as they like you to believe. It has proberly the highest fraud rate of any payment provider.

 

Sorry But you never know

[jansus]

I would have thought what you are offering is very reasonable. Surely they can noy give a refund just on the word of the buyer - otherwise this fraud would be rife?

[summerbreeze]

I would have thought what you are offering is very reasonable. Surely they can noy give a refund just on the word of the buyer - otherwise this fraud would be rife?

 

Paypal fraud is rife I am afraid.

 

Paypal will refund on so called faulty items on production of a tracking number from the buyer saying its returned to the seller. However the buyer can send any old item back or even an empty box as long it has tracking and the seller cant do anything .

 

I sold a dress on Ebay . the buyer said it had a hole in it . I agreed to refund and when I got it back it did have a hole ! The size of an iron where she had scorched it beyond redemption. On complaint to paypal they did absolutely nothing !

[jansus]

I had never even considered a person would do that- in your case what did they gain? the use of the dress for a night ? then their money back?

 

Thanks for the warning

[exasperated]

I suffered from Paypal negligence but on the flip side. I bought a phone of someone and when it arrrived it was faulty. I returned the phone to him thinking I was covered and then never got refunded. Even though I sent the phone back recorded apparently the address he supplied me which I had proof of was not his registered paypal address so they would not refund.

This guy was an absolute arse and continued to taunt me for several weeks after

Anyone idea's on what i could do

Thnaks

[peterlucas]

Everyone should remember that Paypal owe you a duty of care too. If they are not taking proper steps to verify the probity of a buyer's claim, they may well be in breach of that duty, which leaves them open to a claim of negligence.

[IdaInFife]

also when sending to Italy a lot of items 'go missing' and a lot of sellers will not post to Italy.

 

If they buyer has raised a snad then paypal will ask then to return it to you.

 

exasp - paypal would have given you the address to return the item and if you used that address and not one the seller gave you then they should have paid the refund.

 

ida x

[middenmess]

Vonsworld.

 

What service did you use to send it to Italy?

[middenmess]

Vonsworld

 

If I were you I'd change your CAG name and make it different from your ebay name.

 

The reason is that not everyone on here are as they seem and they will look on ebay and see that you are posting items out untracked and will therefore be able to do as your Italian buyer might be doing-obtaining goods for free!

 

Insurance when posting is for your protection,not the buyers!

 

You advertised to send out this expensive and delicate item within the UK by RM Standard Parcels for c.£16.

 

You can send items up to 30kg tracked within the UK by Parcelforce for £10.99 [plus extra insurance for items over £150] when paying by paypal.

 

Paypal usually side with the buyers in cases of doubt and if you cannot provide paypal with a tracking number [and signed proof of receipt] you will lose everytime.

 

Ebay is a very good market place but you need to do as much as you can to protect yourself from the numerous [problematic] on there who pray on the unwary.

Edited November 28, 2009 by middenmess
typos

[Vonsworld]

The recorder was shipped using DPD with full insurance and tracking and arrived safely with no apparent damage. However if it was dropped heavily it could have been damaged internally, thus causing a fault, I simply don't know as yet.

 

I don't trust this buyer, because although I've offered him every help and assistance to sort the problem, he has ignored me and gone straight to the Paypal claim process.

 

If the recorder comes back damaged, or with important parts missing or replaced, what is my next course of action, especially to stop Paypal making a

refund in the interim.

 

I'm prepared for any action, Police, European Small Claims Court etc...

[middenmess]

Hi VW

 

I do feel for you as you have gone into a transaction with honesty and integrity and have encountered what is possibly an expensive problem.

 

It has to be accepted that the buyer may also have entered into this transaction with honesty and integrity and as you say the recorder may have suffered internal damage through being dropped.

 

If the buyer returns the item to you,tracked and insured, and you do discover that it is damaged you are going to find it impossible to claim from your courier as they will quite rightly say that it might have sustained the damage during the return trip from Italy.

 

If you think that there is a possibility that the buyer is sending you a different machine back and keeping your good unit then you could email and say that you will be checking the secret identification codes that you marked your machine with before you dispatched it.

 

I'm afraid that the bottom line is that Paypal protect their buyers more than they do their sellers and will probably refund the buyer from your account.

 

They do advertise that their new resolution centre can sometimes employ common sense in these instances but I remain to be convinced.

 

Have paypal told the buyer to return the item back to you?

[middenmess]

Just a quick thought--are DPD on paypal's list of accepted carriers?

[Vonsworld]

I believe the buyer accepts the recorder was received in apparently undamaged condition. It was perfectly working when it left us, so I can only assume that some internal damage has occurred in transit. The machine was very well packed, but if it was dropped hard enough, then anything could happen.

 

I have worked with many customers who have bought similar items. This guy is different from any other, in that he has ignored all our offers of help, including an offer to pay for necessary repairs to be done in Italy. He has gone straight to the Paypal claims process without engaging with us first. Therefore I can't help but feel suspicious!

 

If the recorder eventually arrives back with parts missing. Or if he sends back his old machine back instead, this is clearly theft.

 

How can I stop Paypal refunding his full payment, just because their tracking says I have received a box from him (regardless of what it contains?)

 

Thanks

[middenmess]

I assume that you have considered the possibility that he is unable to understand communication in English and has just followed the ebay Italy's instructions for claiming?

 

You are going to have a battle to stop the refund as I believe it is done automatically when the buyer enters the tracking number after you have signed for the parcel.

 

When the parcel arrives I suppose that you could use your phone to video the unwrapping of the parcel with a witness [courier?] to confirm the item is yours but how useful this would be in making a claim is debatable.

 

Refusing to sign for the item would not release the money 'frozen' by paypal.

 

Have you contacted Consumer Direct for advice?

[danielr]

if paypal refund the buyer and they don't send the goods back.

or if the buyer sends the goods back and they've damaged them.

or if the seller sends an empty box

 

then your beef is with the seller, not paypal.

 

if the buyer gets a refund and doesn't send the goods back then they've stolen the goods from you.

[buzby]

For info - what TYPE of recorder? It didn't have any type of TV tuner inbuilt? If so, differences with the PAL colour system (especially in relation to the audio sub-carrier) would render it useless unless modified.

 

In this case, you need to ensure PP are told that it was in full working order, and the buyer has made the error, and is outwith your control.

[summerbreeze]

Hi

have you checked the buyers bidding history and feedback that he gets and that he leaves in case this is not an isolated incident.

 

I think as middenmess says above that Paypal will refund him once they have tracked delivery.

 

Has he indicated that he has returned the package and entered the track number into paypal ? Have you viewed the dispute log ?

 

SB