Supreme court case not the end of the world

[SurlyBonds]

Hi Surlybonds

 

ermmmmm....yes

 

I paid for something on the internet....£2.00 yes two pounds, on a saturday

 

it was authorised and paid there and then come monday they took out the previous months charges and then the £2 guess what ???? the £2 put me over and I got a £28 maintenance fee and a £35 gurantee card payment fee

 

thats £63 for going overdrawn by less than £2.

 

the point is they must have known that there would be insufficient funds when it was authorised and they let me do it anyway. !!!!!

 

A prepay card would not of let me do that....why cant the banks do that ??

 

debt engineering ....thats why

 

B?*7^%stards

 

rgds

 

dave

 

That's an overdraft fee... I am talking about a fee for the actual bounce of the transaction.

 

Have you ever had a debit card rejected in a shop, for insufficient funds, then gone home and received a letter along the lines of:

 

-------------------------------------

Dear Bullied Customer,

 

It has come to our attention that you attempted to use your debit card in Retailer Shops plc on dd/mm/yyyy and tried to pay for goods totally £30 when there was only £27 in your account.

 

As a result we have charged you a £25 fee for returning this electronic transaction attempt and returning a DECLINED message to the shop's EFTPOS terminal.

 

This will be charged to your account within the next 14 days.

 

Yours,

 

Mr Muppet Toss Brainache

Department of Being a Total W****r

Big Bully Bank plc

-------------------------------------

 

Those declines are NOT charged... yet the banks argued in Court that every transaction costs administration and processing expense.

[indebtstudent]

Ok here is the way I see it if you go to the cash machine and ask for £10 which isn't there it rejects your reqeust but doesn't charge you £30.

 

An unpaid direct debit does just that.

 

Now given that the banks insist the charges are for a service they should send us an invoice for them much like my mechanic does. Then I can paid for the (dubious) 'service' (for which I am unable to negotiate the price or even see how I have in anyway benefitted) seperately.

 

One thing which really stinks about the whole process, leaving aside the ridiculous level of the charges and the greed which inflated them, is that they apply the charges TO THE BANK ACCOUNT. As others have said what right do they have to say sod you pal we're having our £60 and that money you needed for food is gone.

 

It speaks for itself that the first peice of advice debt charities give is move to a safe bank account. They know the banks abuse thier position.

 

Now onto the case given how little the OFT have achieved I think we'll do better without them.

 

God to see it at least discussed on question time, I'd like to see a special edition myself with Angela Knight on AKA the lady who attacks strawmen for a living.

[Crapstone]

Thanks rickyd for some of the best responses on the boards and being very dignified in your arguments.

 

I still stick with the view that banks will do what they can to maximise their profits regardless of banking codes, contracts or law.

 

My downfall with Natwest was simple. I had written a cheque over 6 months before to a window company. The money was kept ready and waiting for months but I transferred it to a savings account to make more use of the interest it could gain. The cheque was cashed and sent us OD although the money was put in swiftlyto cover it.

 

Charges were applied and still left us OD and then they took their own loan payment and ignored requests to stop all payments on the account until we could sort the finances out. So we aren't talking a few pence they paid out in unauthorised payments it was over £2000 plus the charges and interest they added in a matter of a few weeks.

 

If they had an ounce of common sense then they would have seen that they had put me in an impossible situation were payment going in could not meet their charges and the payments they would not stop.

 

They upped my overdraft without my consent or knowledge to justify the continuing payments. They'd charge for unauthorised borrowing and then up it again to meet more/same payments and then do the same again.

 

That was back in 1999 and I'm still fighting them. Had that one charge not been made and they had followed instructions then all of my commitments could have been honoured. Most of the damage was done within a few days and I wish I had known a 10th of what I know now. But you live and learn and did the best I could at the time including calling all the creditors.

 

It's a spiral and can't help thinking that sometimes it's intentional as people with less than perfect credit history were profitable. Up until then I was perfect, too perfect and no profits were to be had. Throw a spanner in the works, make a few quid and maximise the sub-prime field.

[Hugh Jeffort]

That's not answering the question, it was still called the House of Lords then.

 

The banks WERE refused leave to go to the HOL, but did it anyway. Then the HOL became the Supreme Court, but the reasoning remains the same.

 

Ok, getting clearer but my original question still stands, why doesn't the OFT take it to the European court now? I know the general feeling on this site is that it would be best if the OFT didn't get involved but it is after all what they are there for, it would be nice though if they put a bit more effort in instead of rolling over and playing dead!

 

After all it is still 2-1 to the OFT!!!

[davefirewalker]

That's an overdraft fee... I am talking about a fee for the actual bounce of the transaction.

 

Have you ever had a debit card rejected in a shop, for insufficient funds, then gone home and received a letter along the lines of:

 

-------------------------------------

Dear Bullied Customer,

 

It has come to our attention that you attempted to use your debit card in Retailer Shops plc on dd/mm/yyyy and tried to pay for goods totally £30 when there was only £27 in your account.

 

As a result we have charged you a £25 fee for returning this electronic transaction attempt and returning a DECLINED message to the shop's EFTPOS terminal.

 

This will be charged to your account within the next 14 days.

 

Yours,

 

Mr Muppet Toss Brainache

Department of Being a Total W****r

Big Bully Bank plc

-------------------------------------

 

Those declines are NOT charged... yet the banks argued in Court that every transaction costs administration and processing expense.

 

Ahhhh.... see what you were getting at.......

 

my mistake

 

Dave

[rickyd]

I've used a visa debit card on a Sunday and the amount I used came off my available balance instantly. They do have the systems in place. Sometimes you have to wait to see the transaction come up on your online statement, but the amount does always comes off your available balance when the card is used.

 

If you're checking your balance on your bank's online banking service I'd agree with you, its the same system as used at the counters, my point was about the interaction with the ATM network where there are significant time delays dependent on whose cash machine you're using.

 

If this weren't the case, there couldn't be any card misuse fees.

[rickyd]

Ok here is the way I see it if you go to the cash machine and ask for £10 which isn't there it rejects your reqeust but doesn't charge you £30.

 

An unpaid direct debit does just that..

 

Although your argument has passion it's a bit simplistic. The failed direct debit has to be returned as unpaid to the company making the request whereas the ATM transaction is a dead end with no further processing required. Before the D/D is returned the pending unpaid item appears on a report which is checked against the general conduct of the account before a final decision is made. If you have a relationship manager, he/she may contact you to discuss it and/or appeal for payment on your behalf.

 

The item is then paid or returned accordingly. There is also a repeat request process entered into where the D/D is rep[resented (or not) according to the particular agreement some time later.

 

I totally agree that £30 is way too high a charge for this service though!

[renegotiation]

my point was about the interaction with the ATM network where there are significant time delays dependent on whose cash machine you're using.

 

The technology is easily available to make this virtually instant.

 

 

 

Although your argument has passion it's a bit simplistic. The failed direct debit has to be returned as unpaid to the company making the request whereas the ATM transaction is a dead end with no further processing required. Before the D/D is returned the pending unpaid item appears on a report which is checked against the general conduct of the account before a final decision is made. If you have a relationship manager, he/she may contact you to discuss it and/or appeal for payment on your behalf.

 

Again, this is all smoke and mirrors by the banks. Who the hell do they think they are? It's none of their fecking business. Just as with CPT's, the technology is there for a fully computerised direct debit system with no human intervention. No funds; no payment. The bank doesn't need to stick their nose in. The bank doesn't need to write to you. The company you owe the money to can contact you and say the DD wasn't paid and they will try to take it again on 'x' date! If you are having problems, then please can you contact them. The vast majority of the time, if not all the time, you hear from the company anyway. I don't want to hear from my bank! The computer entry on their system just reads not paid. That's it. Moreover, if a DD is 'returned' as unpaid, then how did you pay it in the first place? It's a fraud!!!

Edited November 27, 2009 by renegotiation

[amber]

Well, Lloyds for one, think its 'in the bag' for them, and has said it will ask local courts to dismiss thousands of overdraft cases lodged against it for the return of overdraft fees. Just this min read it here:

 

BBC News - Lloyds to ask local courts to dismiss overdraft cases

[renegotiation]

Well, Lloyds for one, think its 'in the bag' for them, and has said it will ask local courts to dismiss thousands of overdraft cases lodged against it for the return of overdraft fees.

 

'This means that for those customers who currently have an outstanding complaint about unarranged overdrafts, we'll be writing to them shortly ***to let them know what today's judgement means for them***.'

 

:D:D

Edited November 27, 2009 by renegotiation

[amber]

Yes, the audacity is astounding. I'll be writing back tearing them a new one...

[themadcap]

Ive gone and sent the template letter on wednesday and seem to have jumped the gun a bit can anyone help

Do we really need the OFT ruling to carry on our cases

[ICY]

TMC Wait to see whay the court says in reply to your letter, I personally dont think it will have done you any major damage, just hold off making any further moves for now, it shouldnt be long

[einyuk]

Can the courts simply throw out your claim just on the banks say so, or would they give you notice and the option to contest. Also i would think local court judges would also be aware that it was not a outright win for the banks?......bit concerned about Lloyds action as if they can be dismissed so easily.

 

 

Got the answer from Icy's response on another thread.

Edited November 27, 2009 by einyuk
Update

[indebtstudent]

"Before the D/D is returned the pending unpaid item appears on a report which is checked against the general conduct of the account before a final decision is made. If you have a relationship manager, he/she may contact you to discuss it and/or appeal for payment on your behalf. "

 

I believe this process is automated. Almost nobody has a relatinship manager. I asked my bank what work goes into a paid item fee. They would not say.

 

However you try to justify it its £30+ for computer says no. Any cost is minimal. The banks KNOW THIS and if this were not the case it would very straight forward for them to show this.

 

"There is also a repeat request process entered into where the D/D is rep[resented (or not) according to the particular agreement some time later."

 

And? This is also done automatically, the COMPANY requests the amount again. If a direct debit is returned unpaid to NPower twice they charge a fee of £6. Now this amount may well be too high but there is at least some work on thier part and it is still just under a third of some of the reduced charges some banks are making.

 

"I totally agree that £30 is way too high a charge for this service though!"

 

Then we are in agreement, personally I have difficulty seeing this as a service. The only benefit is to the bank, and the customer cannot stop this process occuring should they make an error.

 

Try it go to your bank and say I want a bank account without an overdraft facility. No problem they'll say. Then tell them you want a guarantee that the account cannot go overdrawn.

 

They won't give such a guarantee. So here again we end up with them using words but changing thier meaning. How can there be an unauthorised overdraft when the bank allows it to happen. It must be authorized!!!!!

 

Why can't they just send the same letter the company who didn't get paid did.

[renegotiation]

Why can't they just send the same letter the company who didn't get paid did.

 

The golden nugget is why do they need to send you any letter whatsoever? Do they send you a letter when you pay in cash to your account? Do they send you a letter whenever you use your debit card? Do they send you a letter whenever you pay a direct debit? Why do they need to send you a letter when you haven't paid a direct debit? The simple answer is THEY DON'T.

[rickyd]

"Before the D/D is returned the pending unpaid item appears on a report which is checked against the general conduct of the account before a final decision is made. If you have a relationship manager, he/she may contact you to discuss it and/or appeal for payment on your behalf. "

 

I believe this process is automated. Almost nobody has a relatinship manager. I asked my bank what work goes into a paid item fee. They would not say.

 

However you try to justify it its £30+ for computer says no. Any cost is minimal. The banks KNOW THIS and if this were not the case it would very straight forward for them to show this.

 

"There is also a repeat request process entered into where the D/D is rep[resented (or not) according to the particular agreement some time later."

 

And? This is also done automatically, the COMPANY requests the amount again. If a direct debit is returned unpaid to NPower twice they charge a fee of £6. Now this amount may well be too high but there is at least some work on thier part and it is still just under a third of some of the reduced charges some banks are making.

 

"I totally agree that £30 is way too high a charge for this service though!"

 

Then we are in agreement, personally I have difficulty seeing this as a service. The only benefit is to the bank, and the customer cannot stop this process occuring should they make an error.

 

Try it go to your bank and say I want a bank account without an overdraft facility. No problem they'll say. Then tell them you want a guarantee that the account cannot go overdrawn.

 

Go to RBS and ask for a Key a/c or NatWest for a Step a/c. Neither will ever pay you into overdraft. The problem for most people is that they want a debit card which you don't get with these a/cs.

 

Every bank has by law to provide a no fees, no frills a/c but its not in their interests to promote them. Think of all those juicy fees they'd lose!

[rickyd]

"Before the D/D is returned the pending unpaid item appears on a report which is checked against the general conduct of the account before a final decision is made. If you have a relationship manager, he/she may contact you to discuss it and/or appeal for payment on your behalf. "

 

I believe this process is automated. Almost nobody has a relatinship manager. I asked my bank what work goes into a paid item fee. They would not say.

 

Go into the bank again and ask them about the Managers Daily Report, this details every account about to become overdrawn, or still overdrawn on each banking day, for each individual branch. That's the report they check - its a major sales prospecting tool.

 

For the record, I wasn't justifying the fee, I've repeatedly said they should simply not pay when there are no funds available.

[rickyd]

The golden nugget is why do they need to send you any letter whatsoever? Do they send you a letter when you pay in cash to your account? Do they send you a letter whenever you use your debit card? Do they send you a letter whenever you pay a direct debit? Why do they need to send you a letter when you haven't paid a direct debit? The simple answer is THEY DON'T.

 

I guess they think its a way of justifying the fee ;-)

[renegotiation]

Every bank has by law to provide a no fees, no frills a/c but its not in their interests to promote them. Think of all those juicy fees they'd lose!

 

Exactly, but at the end of the day no debit card on any account should ever take you into an unagreed overdraft. No funds equals no card transaction. The only situation I can think off where an unagreed overdraft may materialise is with a guaranteed cheque being issued on insufficient funds. In my opinion, if that does happen, it should be treated exactly the same as an authorised overdraft. Maybe each cheque could be subject to a £5 charge or something. Oh what the hell, why not a £50 charge?

[Crapstone]

If it's 'unauthorised' surely they are saying you are taking money that does not belong to you....They aren't calling it theft but are taking the law into their own hands by issuing fines disguised as fees. I'm not sure if it's still the same now but in France, if you wrote a cheque that you had insufficient funds for, it was serious.

[Bookworm]

I have heard that said often, but the reality is altogether different. In my impoverished student days, I had cheques bouncing a LOT and the worst that happened is my bank manager calling me and asking me when my next lot of grant was due in, and maybe I should lay off the chequebook in the meantime? I remember that I used to get a quarterly charge for going over and that was proportional to the amount by which I'd gone over.

 

If you were a bad boy or girl, the bank would take away your chequebook for a month, or 3 months or 6 months, you get the idea. Also bear in mind that in France, banking is supervised by the "Banque de France" and that if you get turned down for a bank account, you can ask the BfD to intervene and they will force a bank to give you an account, and also that you can not over-borrow in France, as if a bank were to allow you to borrow more than 30% of your income and you were to default, the BdF's attitude would be: "tough, you shouldn't have lent them the money when you knew they would be over-stretching themselves" and make the bank write it off.

[davefirewalker]

Exactly, but at the end of the day no debit card on any account should ever take you into an unagreed overdraft. No funds equals no card transaction. The only situation I can think off where an unagreed overdraft may materialise is with a guaranteed cheque being issued on insufficient funds. In my opinion, if that does happen, it should be treated exactly the same as an authorised overdraft. Maybe each cheque could be subject to a £5 charge or something. Oh what the hell, why not a £50 charge?

 

ermmmm

 

my debit card frequently causes me problems which it shouldn't do......like i said in another thread, I paid for something and it cost £2 .....it was authorised and paid then come monday they decided to take out the previous months charges which I had forgoten about .....and then the £2.......guess what .... the £2 just put me over and .....BANG £35 guarantee charge and £28 maintenance charge....????? £63 for less than £2 overdrawn

 

I dont think so.......

 

 

Also

 

My lad had a step account with natwest and still managed to somehow get overdrawn and charges....?????

 

they closed the account on him causing even more trouble.

 

as an aside ......why not open a basic account and use one of the many prepay debit or "credit" cards...... you have to pay a little bit, but i'm almost sure that the advantages would outweigh the disadvantages and the charges.

 

just a thought

 

rgds

 

dave

Edited November 29, 2009 by davefirewalker

[Josie8]

Ok, getting clearer but my original question still stands, why doesn't the OFT take it to the European court now? I know the general feeling on this site is that it would be best if the OFT didn't get involved but it is after all what they are there for, it would be nice though if they put a bit more effort in instead of rolling over and playing dead!

 

After all it is still 2-1 to the OFT!!!

 

If the oft couldn't manage to challenge under right regulation why on earth would you want to waste another two years waiting for them to mess it up again??

[indebtstudent]

"Go to RBS and ask for a Key a/c or NatWest for a Step a/c. Neither will ever pay you into overdraft. The problem for most people is that they want a debit card which you don't get with these a/cs."

 

Do they allow direct debits? If so then they can allow an overdraft. If you pay in cheques you could go overdrawn if the cheque is returned unpaid (although the window is smaller now).

 

"Go into the bank again and ask them about the Managers Daily Report, this details every account about to become overdrawn, or still overdrawn on each banking day, for each individual branch. That's the report they check - its a major sales prospecting tool."

 

Who are THEY? Do you mean to say that someone in the branch checks these? If so I can only assume the worlds largest buidling society does not have such a report as I never heard one mentioned whilst working there. I am CERTAIN the sales people would've wanted this info to look for loan opportunities...

 

The report may be kept on some computer at head office, available if someone wants to look at it, but this is very different from work at branch level. In any event this is beside the point even if someone in each branch looks at the list what do they actually do???? Any letter relating to charges or statements are actually sent from head office.

 

I don't get the point you are making here, branches do very little these days you know. Case in point Nationwide had a computer problem where some DD's were taken early. In the briefing it said the charges would be reversed but they would STILL shoe on the affected customers statements because the process is AUTOMATED.

 

Ps I bank with A & L for my sins. There is no nearby branch I amange the account entirely online or over the phone. I asked them what happens in deciding whether to pay an item for which they charge £25 paid item fee. They sent back a templated response which did not address this. Fortunately as the DD guarantee had been broken they refunded the charges (8 weeks after the event).

Edited November 29, 2009 by indebtstudent
Missed relevent info out on the PS