Barclaycard 3 of my 14 issues any advice welcome

[steve2577]

I asked for my agreement but not using or quoting CCA 1974

 

This is what I received for 2 of my cards that date back to 1997

 

 

 

This next one is the first page of the Blank Contract

 

 

This is the second page of the blank contract

 

 

 

I subsequently made a request under CCA 1974 Sections 78 for more and informed them the account is in dispute

 

 

 

I got a very different response from Barclays for my third card (I think this was a card that they took over from another Company Dean Witter Morgan Stanley)

 

I have only received the T&C's from Dean Witter but it would seem the response from Barclays would be because they wouldn't have the original agreement to hand and they seem to imply that if I dont do as I am told it will cost me more money

 

 

 

No Contract with this one so I suppose I have to do a SAR request for this

 

 

Again any advice would be gratefully accepted

 

 

Steve

Edited November 24, 2009 by steve2577

[exchange]

Barclaycard are known to be difficult but if they can't produce a copy of an agreement you just need to stick to your guns.

Exchange

[MandM]

subbing

[steve2577]

Bang on queue 8 telephone calls today from Barclaycard but my little device filters them and I never have to speak to a Debt Collector ever:razz:

[MandM]

He he. Let the fun begin

[johnerog]

Steve the Law is they have 12 days + 2 to provide to provide you with a copy of a correctly executed, regulated agreement. After that the account goes into dispute until they do provide it. There should be no collection activity until they have fulfilled their duty in law. If DCA writes to you, write back and say that if they have taken over the collection duties then they have taken over the legal duties as well. Would they please send you a copy of the agreement etc...

[johnerog]

By the way, I personaly do not think these are remotely enforceable:

 

No Credit Limit

Incorrect heading.

No signatures, in fact no signature boxes, just cancellation boxes.

In fact they are a total mess.

[steve2577]

Steve the Law is they have 12 days + 2 to provide to provide you with a copy of a correctly executed, regulated agreement. After that the account goes into dispute until they do provide it. There should be no collection activity until they have fulfilled their duty in law. If DCA writes to you, write back and say that if they have taken over the collection duties then they have taken over the legal duties as well. Would they please send you a copy of the agreement etc...

 

My first request was a bit informal along the lines of please send me a copy of my contract thank you very much.

 

However I have now sent a pretty heavy letter quoting CCA 1974 s 77/78 and also notified them that I consider it is now in Dispute etc etc.

 

So I am asuming that my first letter was a bit wishy washy and may or may not be legal etc so I thought about waiting unti I get a response from this before I hit them with non-compliance etc.

 

Then I thought SAR might be an idea.

 

 

Steve;)

[steve2577]

I have 3 issues on this one thread do you think I should split them or not?

 

 

 

Steve

[steve2577]

I have received this letter following a further request for copies of contracts in it they seem to indicate no further responses forthcoming if I dont provide extra evidence.

 

Can anybody suggest my next move other than send a further request and dispute letter.

 

Page 1

 

 

 

Page 2

 

 

 

Page 3

 

[MandM]

Hi Steve,

 

Some useful reading for you,

 

M

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/barclaycard/231901-tony3x-barclaycard.html

[steve2577]

Thanks what a great help you are:)

[MandM]

Thanks what a great help you are:)

 

He he, not that great, just a step or two further along the same path.

 

I know how tricky the first week or two can be on this forum, soooooo much information and help, (and such genuinely helpful people) but learning your way around it is the trick then that's half the job done .

 

Then it dawns on you that YOU'RE back in control.

 

The more you read, the easier it gets,

 

Will keep popping in and help where i can,

 

We have a lot of similar issues so i'm sure we'll be of great use to each other,

 

Keep going Steve,

 

M

[slick132]

I have 3 issues on this one thread do you think I should split them or not?

 

Steve

 

Hi Steve,

 

Yes, you must split them with only one case per thread, or it'll get too confusing.

 

I suggest you start a new thread for each card a/c, in the appropriate forum. Head each thread differently, even if is only Steve -v-BC 1, BC 2, etc.

 

I'll see you in the BC forum with some of these.

[slick132]

Re the case in post #10 above, you can now complain to the FOS on this one as they've said they'll not write further about this.

 

Complain using the template letter on Tony3x's thread which is linked in post #11 above.

[johnerog]

He he, not that great, just a step or two further along the same path.

 

I know how tricky the first week or two can be on this forum, soooooo much information and help, (and such genuinely helpful people) but learning your way around it is the trick then that's half the job done .

 

Then it dawns on you that YOU'RE back in control.

 

The more you read, the easier it gets,

 

Will keep popping in and help where i can,

 

We have a lot of similar issues so i'm sure we'll be of great use to each other,

 

Keep going Steve,

 

M

 

Well said MandM. 2 good posts.

[MandM]

Well said MandM. 2 good posts.

Why thank you old chap You're not doing too bad yourself.

 

M

[steve2577]

Thought you guys might want to see this ref MBNA and Manchester court this week looks like they backed out of direct confromtation.

 

http://view.exacttarget.com/?j=fe8810797666027473&m=fef11d72706d01&ls=fe2713757d67037e771475&l=fef71771706c03&s=fe2a10747d6c057f721671&jb=ffcf14&ju=fe631173746606757513&r=0

 

 

I have given Credit Issues my partners CC's to deal with which amounts to £40k over 6 cards and hey presto looks ike some good news for a change.

 

 

 

Steve

[MandM]

Nice!

 

M

[steve2577]

Apologies to anyone who considers my previous post unhelpful I can assure you all it is not an advert for a company just something I thought would be useful and encouraging to read.

 

All of us here seem to be focused on resolving our isues on our own without paying for outside help if anybody wants to know more send a private email.

 

Just to recap for everybody reading this thread I am dealing with 14 CC's for myself on my own with the help of you guys, but I engaged a company to deal with my partners 6 CC's for a fee.

 

Basically I bottled it on both fronts in that I didn't know what to do for the best so decided to split my issues to spread my bets so to speak.

 

Regards

[steve2577]

I have received this letter following a further request for copies of contracts in it they seem to indicate no further responses forthcoming if I dont provide extra evidence.

 

Can anybody suggest my next move other than send a further request and dispute letter.

 

 

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Account Number: XXX

 

Re; your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending a copy of your companies current Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

 

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a "true copy" of the agreement.

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

 

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, "the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form." This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

 

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable. I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that, whilst the request has not been complied with, the default continues.

 

Yours faithfully

Edited January 22, 2010 by steve2577

[slick132]

Hi Steve,

 

I wouldn't send the template letter you have shown. You're past that stage.

 

See the advice I gave to BTN earlier today. I think the same applies to you - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/barclaycard/224584-advice-required-barclaycard-2.html#post2639589

 

[steve2577]

You have 2 choices now:-

 

1. Make a complaint to the FOS about BC's failure to provide the copy agreement. See here - Tony3x -v- Barclaycard

 

2. Write to BC saying you are still not satisfied that they've fulfilled the requirements of CCA 1974. Tell them if they are not prepared to send a copy of the agreement, would they confirm this is their "final response", so you can refer your case to the FOS.

 

If you go ahead with option 1. now, even though BC have said they don't have to respond further, the FOS may not regard that as BC's final response.

 

You could also consider the CPR strategy. See Link No2 in my signature.

 

 

 

I know I have to decide by myself but to be honest if you said that the CPR option is the one that causes them the most grief then thats the one I will do or can I bottle it and go with option 2 now then get really really mad and go with the CPR startegy later.

 

To be honest I really dont care so shall I toss a coin?

 

a couple of weeks ago I was clueless on everything now I feel like rumpole of the Bailey some of it is actually sticking in my head.

 

 

 

Many Regards Steve:cool:

[slick132]

Steady on, Rumpole !!

 

Don't think for one minute that using the CPR strategy will cause BC any grief. They couldn't give a hoot !

 

The CPR strategy is not without it's risks and you should only start it if you are clear in how it works, what costs exposure there is and you are determined to take your case into court. You will have to make an N244 Application for sight of the credit agreement and hope that the judge hearing your case agrees about how CPR31.16 may apply to your case.

 

I think you should try option 1 or 2 above.

 

Then, if you draw a blank and want to go on the CPR route, read up on it carefully and proceed.

 

[nick20045]

I have read through the posts and to be honest my first impression is: Is this a "Cowboy" attempt? (Sorry but that is what it comes over looking like).

 

Old piece of advise I once received: If you are going to do something either do it right in the first place or otherwise do not do it at all. If you do half ar$ed work then it will take you longer to finish cos you have to repair what you have already done and then finish the job.

 

And looking at one of your uploads which is upside down, with all due respect shows "You just fire away and hope for the best". In short, if you make a post and notice the upload is upside down why did you not reupload properly and then edit the post? Or am I (and other members) supposed to read it upside down? Also what you have to understand is that this is like a dog which has a bone. You want to take that bone from it. So you have to coax it into releasing that bone otherwise you can get your hand bitten. (Default filed, court costs, solicitor costs etc etc which you want to avoid at all costs if possible).

 

Now, back to the problem.........

 

I think it will help if you post (obviously edited) a copy of what your sent as a CCA application. I have seen CCA applications which are just possibly say 5 lines and there are also applications which are the "full McCoy". Posting a copy of what you sent can give us an idea of how Barclays may look at your application.

 

Regarding applying to the FOS as said, unless the bank says that it has sent you its final response then the FOS will not look at your application. Note: A bank saying "I will not write back" is NOT a final response. A final response is when the bank writes, at the top (usually in bold capital letters) Final Response.

 

Also applying to the FOS, there is roughly a 6 month waiting list at the moment and basically all you are doing is "Putting it to arbitration". What happens? (Based on my own experience).

 

You put your side to the FOS. The FOS will send you a nice letter saying they will do their best to investigate. The FOS will see what the bank has to say and (and this the important thing), it will try and find a "Happy medium satisfying both parties".

 

Now unless you can really (what is called) litigate on paper you are already at a disadvantage (especially if what you write may be wrongly interpreted). Furthermore, let us argue that the FOS finds in your favour, do not expect some high compensation award. They will claim that there was no financial loss. (It is only a document you are after which, as it has not been supplied you have not suffered any losses). Hence, EVEN IF the bank was to admit tort, you could be looking at something like a £50 award. (I have a case with the FOS where the bank actually admitted tort but claimed "In the interest of protecting the client". According to the FOS a £100 compensation offered by the bank is, in their opinion "Lovely of the bank to be so nice to offer this award and should accept it").

 

We come back again to "shall I make an application to the FOS or not"?

 

Well it can also be what is called "A two edged sword" if you make that application. Basically it may go in your favour (from what I have seen on this thread I would give that a 3% chance). BUT, if the FOS finds in the banks favour then the bank can use that decision in a Court to justify their actions. Hence, you have given the bank "more ammunition" to use in their favour. And let us be honest, a Judge will accept the FOS decision more then what argument you may put forward as the Judge will deem that argument has already been evaluated in favour of the bank.

 

So you have to plan things and look at, as we call it "A bit further then your nose". In short, it is like playing a game of chess.

 

Hence, I would say that if you post a copy of what you sent as a CCA application, we can compare it to what the bank replied. Might also need upping some copies of what you had replied to see if there are any mistakes.

 

Last one, cut and paste is NOT how one should write to banks etc. You have to take different template letters, read them, edit them, mix and match, post on here to see if somebody advises any changes. Then post to the creditor. ALL cases are TOTALLY different in some aspect or another. Most will start the same, a CCA application. Then it depends on the replies that you have to use your head on how to counter reply.

Edited December 12, 2009 by nick20045