Debt sold on

[Sina]

Please can anyone advise me.

 

I had a debt to Sainsbury's Bank and some as well as some other debts. Welfare Rights negotiated with all of them on my behalf and I pay monthly by direct debit to repay them. Over the years I have always paid the correct amount and on time. During this period a couple of them have contacted me and I have provided them with information about my current financial situation and they have accepted the payment WR originally negotiated to carry on with the same arrangement.

 

It appears Sainsbury's have sold the debt on to a very aggressive collection agency without informing me and not llowing me to renegotiate terms. This company phones me every day including Sundays and if I don't answer the phone they leave a recorded ...well I was going to say message....but it's garbled version of my name each time and nothing more. I now have to check my phone on a regular basis to clear these 'messages' as they fill my answerphone capacity and people who I do want to contact me are unable to leave a message.

 

Firstly, what is my responsibility to this 3rd party regarding the debt and secondly what are my rights about their constant phone calls and letters which are harassment? The letters are asking me to pay the debt in full or to make a reasonable offer. There is no way I can pay off this debt and would be quite happy to stick to the arrangement made by WR to pay these debts on a monthly basis.

 

Thank you in anticipation

Sina

[silverfox1961]

HI,

You are now in the grasp of a dirty, lowlife debt collection agency but all is not lost.

 

Debt collection agencies have absolutely no power over you and cannot force you to pay more than you can afford. Only a judge has that power and most DCA's won't go to court as the judge could say to pay less than the DCA want and then they can do nothing about it.

 

You could do with finding out if Sainsbury's have actually sold the debt or whether the DCA are collecting on behalf of the bank. Have a look at the letters you have received and see if it gives any clues.

 

There are two ways to go with this and they are

a) send a prove it letter to the DCA. Letter 18 on this link:

 

The Consumer Forums - Debt collectors

 

b) Send a CCA request to the DCA. Letter 8 on the same link. This is purely to see if they have the right to be collecting on this debt.

 

I would also enclose with whatever letter you decide to send, this one:

 

Harassment by telephone - Consumer Wiki

 

If you can record any phone calls that would help but if they ignore your request to stop ringing, you have every right not to answer the security questions. They cannot continue the call if you give them nothing and if they did you could report them to the information commissioner.

 

Was this account ever defaulted?

Was this account ever terminated?

Did you receive a notice of Assignment of the debt?

[Sina]

Hello Siverfox

 

Thank you so much for a very comprehensive reply. I will do what you suggest first thing tomorrow. I can't see any clues in the letter to say whether the debt has been sold or whether the DCA is acting on Sainsbury's behalf. From the tone of the letter I would make a wild guess they have bought the debt.

 

Could I just clarify the following questions you asked

 

Was this account ever defaulted?

Was this account ever terminated?

Did you receive a notice of Assignment of the debt?

 

What do you mean by the account 'being defaulted' or 'terminated' other than I was no longer able to keep up the repayments hence going to WR to negotiate a payment I could afford?

I presume receiving notice of assignment of the debt refers to informing me it being handed over to the DCA?

 

I can record the phone calls if I phone the DCA. If I answer the DCA calls they are just recorded messages telling me to phone a number which I will not do because it will be at my cost.

 

The reason I did not respond to this company is because I'm still paying the same monthly amount (consolidated through Paylink) and if one of the creditors has taken themselves out of the arrangement then I consider it their choice. That also brings up another issue, what happens to the payment allocated to the Sainsbury debt? Could you tell me if this amount then goes to the other companies?

 

Thank you once again for this help, it is more than I could have hoped for.

 

Regards

Sina

[diddydicky]

if you can afford it (around 80 quid ) get yourself a truecall- this will give you 100% protection from unwanted callers

 

send a cca s78 request off to all you creditors anyway and post up what comes back in around 2 weeks- you may get a pleasant surprise

[Sina]

Thank you very much for the information Dicky. I will definitely follow your advice. I'm so impressed with the quality of information here but mainly the quick knowledgeable advisor Silverfox and now you.

 

Regards

Sina

[silverfox1961]

See the bits below in red

 

Hello Siverfox

 

Thank you so much for a very comprehensive reply. I will do what you suggest first thing tomorrow. I can't see any clues in the letter to say whether the debt has been sold or whether the DCA is acting on Sainsbury's behalf. From the tone of the letter I would make a wild guess they have bought the debt.

 

Could I just clarify the following questions you asked

 

Was this account ever defaulted?

 

Before they can start the process of selling a debt, the original creditor (OC) needs to default you. A default notice tells you that you have missed so many payments and you need to make these payments up before a certain date or the defailt will stand

Was this account ever terminated?

 

Once you have defaulted, the OC can then terminate your account and tell you of this, usually by saying they have removed your card facilities

Did you receive a notice of Assignment of the debt?

 

What do you mean by the account 'being defaulted' or 'terminated' other than I was no longer able to keep up the repayments hence going to WR to negotiate a payment I could afford?

I presume receiving notice of assignment of the debt refers to informing me it being handed over to the DCA?

 

Correct. When the account is sold either the OC or the DCA will inform you that the DCA is now in control of the account

 

I can record the phone calls if I phone the DCA. If I answer the DCA calls they are just recorded messages telling me to phone a number which I will not do because it will be at my cost.

 

Don't bother ringing them. As they have your number, just wait and they will eventually bombard you with calls. Make sure you log these calls (date/time) and if you can, record them. You don't have to tell them you are recording

 

The reason I did not respond to this company is because I'm still paying the same monthly amount (consolidated through Paylink) and if one of the creditors has taken themselves out of the arrangement then I consider it their choice. That also brings up another issue, what happens to the payment allocated to the Sainsbury debt? Could you tell me if this amount then goes to the other companies?

 

Thank you once again for this help, it is more than I could have hoped for.

 

Regards

Sina

 

Regarding Paylink. Are they a debt management company or are they part of Payplan? Either way, I would pass on the letters to them and let them deal with it (I'd still advise sending the DCA the above letters). Any payments you make will go to the OC unless you tell them differently.

 

 

hope that helps

 

fox

[Deb T]

Who is the Debt Collection Agency? Is it Robinson Way? If it is it's unlikely that it's been sold on, Sainsburys tend not to sell them on but attemp to collect them via a third party (not always the case but mostly)

[Sina]

Hello Deb

 

The company is FIRE - Financial Investigations and recoveries (Europe) Ltd

who have asked me to 'make a reasonable offer'.

 

But underneath their address is

Client -Cabot Financial Group

Original Lender-Sainsbury's

Original Ref *******632

 

"Despite repeated requests for payment, you still owe our client CFG ......etc

 

Does this help?

 

I am already bombarded with phone calls but it's a recorded message not a person. I don't answer but the call leaves a message each time which fills up my answerphone capacity.

 

Thanks

Sina

[hungrybear]

follow the advice of silverfox is the only advice I want to give

[Deb T]

There is plenty of information surrounding Cabot on this forum, take a read through it but essentially don't let them bully you.

 

I concur with Hungrybear re Silverfox's advice.

[Sina]

Thanks to all!

 

I will follow the advice.

 

Could I just ask who my debt is now with. Sainsbury's, Cabot or FIRE?

 

Regards

Sina

[hungrybear]

it reads that cabot own the debt and that fire are collecting for them

[diddydicky]

i may be mistaken but i am totally unaware of what legislation prevents a creditor from selling a debt "until after he has defaulted it"

 

it is my opinion that a "debt " can be sold at any time and in whatever state it is in at the time of sale- and that the buyer takes it "warts and all"

 

this may be one of those ocassions where i may have the "wrong end of the stick" ( a bit like thinking for years that queen was singing " there's a devil on the sideboard for you!!)

 

can someone point me to the legislation if i have this wrong

 

thanks

[silverfox1961]

Diddydicky (cool name BTW)

 

I was referring more to enforcement action rather than transferring accounts from one company to another (like the Associates did when they sold their portfolio to Citi)

 

While (as I understand it) a DCA can collect on behalf of the creditor at any time, the account has to be terminated by the OC before a DCA can buy the debt and the account needs to be defaulted before termination.

 

Clear as mud eh!

[diddydicky]

mmmmmmm not sure that is right

 

a debt is an asset, i cant see that the asset holder can be restricted in that way from realising his assets.

[Deb T]

mmmmmmm not sure that is right

 

a debt is an asset, i cant see that the asset holder can be restricted in that way from realising his assets.

 

 

The Original Credit agreement names the two parties involved, i.e the lender and the person taking on the loan/debt, until a default action causes the contract to be teminated surely the contract exists between the two parties only. All of this most likely forms part of the terms and conditons of the individual agreement.

[diddydicky]

The Original Credit agreement names the two parties involved, i.e the lender and the person taking on the loan/debt, until a default action causes the contract to be teminated surely the contract exists between the two parties only. All of this most likely forms part of the terms and conditons of the individual agreement.

 

fraid not, EVERY credit agreement will have a clause allowing the creditor to sell on the debt- just like your bank account or your mortgage

[Deb T]

Um, I think we're on the right track, I would think most credit agreements do have a clause in them allowing the debt to be sold on (as per my initial post re terms and conditions) however it still does not alter the fact that the original agreement was between two prties, the transferring of those rights to a third party may invalidate the original contract.

 

At the same time as this, if the original creditor can sell off their debt (asset) without any problems why cannot the debtor also transfer their liablity (asset) to another person?

 

The contract may not expressly state that the debtor can transfer their rights but then again it does not expressly state that they cant.

[diddydicky]

Um, I think we're on the right track, I would think most credit agreements do have a clause in them allowing the debt to be sold on (as per my initial post re terms and conditions) however it still does not alter the fact that the original agreement was between two prties, the transferring of those rights to a third party may invalidate the original contract.

 

At the same time as this, if the original creditor can sell off their debt (asset) without any problems why cannot the debtor also transfer their liablity (asset) to another person?

 

The contract may not expressly state that the debtor can transfer their rights but then again it does not expressly state that they cant.

 

for obvious reasons i would suggest

 

for instance 10,000 people sign up for a 10,000 credit card

 

then, these 10,000 people- having spent 10 grand each, then sell their indebtedness to me for 50 quid each

 

I being peniless- tell the credit card companies to "swivel"

 

mmmmmmm if only, if only .......................

[Sina]

Hi

 

I've asked this question a few times before but never had a response which may be because no-one knows the answer. I'll try again just in case someone has now got some information.

 

Welfare Rights negotiated with all my creditors on my behalf, 10 in total. 6 were getting £1 per month and 2 were getting £2 per month all paid by one standing order through Paylink. Some creditors were paid off quickly as amounts were so small. My last Paylink statement shows that only 2 are the original creditors and they are the only 2 who contact me on a yearly basis to ask if my circumstances have changed and always accept the agreement will carry on as originally negotiated.

 

One debt has been sold on many times e.g to Cabot and now Robinson Way who are harassing me and threatening a home visit.

As I'm still paying £10 per month originally agreed and only 2 creditors and Robinson Way are making themselves known so where is the remainder of the £10 going? To the original creditor who RWay bought the debt from or the 2 creditors left in the loop receiving more than £2 each?

 

I have tried many times to contact Welfare Rights but I think they may have closed down.

 

Thanks for reading.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Sina
ETA my thanks

[brokebutnotbeatn]

The Welfare Rights message board has been updated in June and the website seems live and current. However I just rang them and got no answer. Have you tried emailing them? I am confused as you mentioned your Paylink statement details who the money is going to but that you are paying one sum of £10 presumably to Welfare Rights? You should write a letter and send recorded to WR requesting a statement of account and detailing the amount you have paid them since inception of the plan and asking for a breakdown of where the money has gone. However, it sounds as if you need to cancel that SO and and start a new thread for each of the debts that are still outstanding so the guys here can advise accordingly.

[Sina]

Thanks for such a quick response. I have tried every way I can think of to contact Welfare Rights( including the guy who was my 'agent' there), even hand delivering a letter but no response.

 

I'm not paying the £10 to Welfare Rights, it goes to Paylink who in turn distribute the money to the creditors. Paylink send me statements when I ask for them but when I speak to them they tell me to contact WR for any information about them. So I go in circles. I keep paying the £10 per month to ensure that if any DCA comes after me (legitimately) then I can't be taken to court because I'm adhering to my contract with Paylink.

 

As far as I can see I have 2 original creditors left, both credit cards, who are listed on the all the Paylink statements. They both contact me once a year to ask if my circumstances have changed, which they haven't, so I inform them and they carry on accepting the nominal payments. It seems only 1 debt (Sainsbury loan) has been sold on and now with R Way. I was wondering if Sainsbury still get the £1 per month or does R Way now get it? I presume R Way are getting the £1 per month, if so then I shall carry on ignoring them as as they are getting paid and I have no intention to change the current arrangement set up by WRs.

 

The other 2 are content with the current arrangement so once again I would prefer to leave sleeping dogs lie. Although I would prefer to know that these 2 were getting an increased amount from the £10 (such as £5 each and get rid of R Way) as they have never given me any distress. I don't want to make any contact with RWay, thereby acknowledging their interest.

 

I really don't want the hassle of renegotiating with anyone personally because of health issues. I would be happy for Welfare Rights to do so but I can't make any contact. I did wonder what would happen if I did stop the standing order and waited for the 2 creditors to contact me, if they would consent to a private arrangement on the same terms i.e. I pay the £10 per month directly to them but split between them.

[brokebutnotbeatn]

Sainsbury's will still be getting the money. RW are just trying to get you to pay more. But still confused. If Paylink are distributing money paid by you then demand a statment of account accordingly. It is up to you whether to let sleeping dogs lie or not. The original creditors have to send you an annual statment so as there are only a few left you could ask for one easily enough or you could SAR them - always SAR the original lender not the DCA (who have no rights anyway)

[Sina]

Thanks once again.

 

I will contact Paylink yet again and ask for/insist on a full statement accounting for all money paid to them so far. The 2 credit card companies send regular statements of accounts so I'm happy for this arrangement to carry on. If Sainsbury is still getting paid too then that is one less concern but I haven't had any contact from them since they sold the debt on many DCAs ago. I had presumed when they sold the debt the payment to them would be transferred to the DCA. From my understanding now R Way can be ignored?,

[brokebutnotbeatn]

SAR Sainsburys. That will show if the debt was sold on or not and the payments received. Costs £10 and make sure you say what you want. You will find a template letter to adapt in the library. I would suggest that other people are still getting their payments unless they were stopped so you should reduce your SO to the amount beiung paid to those left anyway. If the existing creditors are only getting what was originally agreed then Sainsbury's will be too and you'll need to start claiming the rest back from whom ever it is being paid to.