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    • Hi,  I guess the DCAs have come out of hibernation as my friend has had a Claim Form today.  Honestly I feel like I have addressed this one but she can't find the folder box I gave her to keep all this nonsense in, but then the claim form has no information you could realistically use to find out what its from anyway(JD has a few names under their umbrella and she has had accounts with most of them over the years, some repeatedly as they keep lending to someone with no income.  Its ok at the start when its only a little bit but they rapidly put it up and up until she owes in the high hundreds/low thousands instead of the £150 she is initially given, she always intends to keep it in good standing but there is a massive difference between paying £20 a month and over £100) and the usual poor grammar that should be an embarrassment to any normal legal firm, but I suppose these people have no shame.   Anyway, I assume its the same respond for more time and send off a CPR and CCA?   Name of the Claimant ?   Cabot Financial Date of issue – top right hand corner of the claim form – this in order to establish the time line you need to adhere to. 22/02/2021   Particulars of Claim   What is the claim for – the reason they have issued the claim?  By an Agreement between JD Williams Ltd RE Jacamo & the defendant dated XX ('the agreement') JD Williams Ltd RE Jacamo agreed to issue the Defendant with a credit account.  The Defendant failed to make the minimum payments due.  The Agreement was terminated following the service of a default notice.  The agreement was assigned to the Claimant.  THE CLAIMANT THEREFOR CLAIMS 1.8XX.XX 2. costs   What is the total value of the claim? £8XX.XX    Have you received prior notice of a claim being issued pursuant to paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) ? No   Have you changed your address since the time at which the debt referred to in the claim was allegedly incurred? Yes   Did you inform the claimant of your change of address? No Is the claim for - a Bank Account (Overdraft) or credit card or loan or catalogue or mobile phone account? Catalogue   When did you enter into the original agreement before or after April 2007 ? After   Do you recall how you entered into the agreement...On line /In branch/By post ? Online   Is the debt showing on your credit reference files (Experian/Equifax /Etc...) ? Yes   Has the claim been issued by the original creditor or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. Debt Purchaser   Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? Possibly, she was(and is) very poor at keeping and responding to correspondence.     Did you receive a Default Notice from the original creditor? Possibly, she was(and is) very poor at keeping and responding to correspondence.   Have you been receiving statutory notices headed “Notice of Sums in Arrears”  or " Notice of Arrears "– at least once a year ? Possibly, she was(and is) very poor at keeping and responding to correspondence.   Why did you cease payments? More than she could afford.     What was the date of your last payment? No Idea as we do not not which account it is for.     Was there a dispute with the original creditor that remains unresolved? No   Did you communicate any financial problems to the original creditor and make any attempt to enter into a debt management plan? Possibly but can't say for sure.    
    • Thank you Andy/Dx   UPDATED Defence, 3 days remaining.   Not sure where to mention invalid PAP. I put it under number 5. Please check if this is good to go.   Defence   The Defendant contends that the particulars of claims are vague and generic in nature. The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.5 (3) in relation to any allegation to which a specific response has not been made.   The Claimant has not complied with paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) – failed to serve a letter of claim pre-claim pursuant to PAPDC changes of the 1st October 2017. It is respectfully requested that the court take this into consideration pursuant to 7.1 PAPDC.   1. I have in the past had financial dealings with Lloyds Banking Group. I do not recall the precise details of the agreement and have sought clarity from the claimant.   2. However, I do not recall ever receiving a Default Notice pursuant to sec 87(1) CCA1974.   3. I do not recall ever receiving this notice pursuant to sec136 of the Law of Property Act 1925.   4. I do not recall ever receiving a letter of assignment from the Lloyds Banking group advising the debt was assigned to the claimant.   5. Claimant served the invalid PAP with no connection to their court claim,   6. On receipt of this claim I sent CPR 31.14 and section 77 request. The claimant failed to provide a valid copy of the agreement and therefore remains in default of said request.   7. It is therefore not accepted with regards to the Defendant owing any monies to the Claimant and the Claimant is put to strict proof to:-   a) show how the Defendant has entered into an agreement; and b) show how the Defendant has reached the amount claimed for; and c) Show or evidence service of a Default Notice/Notice of Sums in Arrears, d) show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim;   By reasons of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.      
    • no.   i wonder if the OP is entitled to CTAX benefit, thats only available from the relevant council...most on UC can get it..   but your MP is by far the most successful route to sorting these issues we've seen here to work.
    • dx100uk  unclebulgaria67   OP is on UC.   Could the council apply for weekly amounts to be deducted from UC claim ?
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    • I sent in the bailiffs to the BBC. They collected £350. It made me smile.
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    • Hi @BankFodder
      Sorry for only updating you now, but after your guidance with submitting the claim it was pretty straight forward and I didn't want to unnecessarily waste your time. Especially with this guide you wrote here, so many thanks for that
      So I issued the claim on day 15 and they requested more time to respond.
      They took until the last day to respond and denied the claim, unsurprisingly saying my contract was with Packlink and not with them.
       
      I opted for mediation, and it played out very similarly to other people's experiences.
       
      In the first call I outlined my case, and I referred to the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 as the reason to why I do in fact have a contract with them. 
       
      In the second call the mediator came back with an offer of the full amount of the phone and postage £146.93, but not the court costs. I said I was not willing to accept this and the mediator came across as a bit irritated that I would not accept this and said I should be flexible. I insisted that the law was on my side and I was willing to take them to court. The mediator went back to Hermes with what I said.
       
      In the third call the mediator said that they would offer the full amount. However, he said that Hermes still thought that I should have taken the case against Packlink instead, and that they would try to recover the court costs themselves from Packlink.
       
      To be fair to them, if Packlink wasn't based in Spain I would've made the claim against them instead. But since they are overseas and the law lets me take action against Hermes directly, it's the best way of trying to recover the money.
       
      So this is a great win. Thank you so much for your help and all of the resources available on this site. It has helped me so much especially as someone who does not know anything about making money claims.
       
      Many thanks, stay safe and have a good Christmas!
       
       
        • Thanks
    • Hermes and mediation hints. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/428981-hermes-and-mediation-hints/&do=findComment&comment=5080003
      • 1 reply
    • Natwest Bank Transfer Fraud Call HMRC Please help. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/428951-natwest-bank-transfer-fraud-call-hmrc-please-help/&do=findComment&comment=5079786
      • 33 replies

Financial ombudsman comes under fire as insider reveals litany of bad practices


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My sentiments exactly. The staff at the FOS just don't seen to examine all the fact and data before making any sort of decision. I wonder why we don't all get to gether and make an "on mass" complaint about this seeming incompetent organisation. However, who who we complain to!

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OH's complaint was made to the Financial Ombudsman in July 2008. Since then they have managed to "lose" to packages of documents despite agreeing that they have been received and signed for.

 

A further letter received from them in December 2009 advised they had "lost" more information. Although they soon found it when I suggested a formal complaint would be made due to their incompetence.

 

I am just about to send an email asking if OH's complaint is now being addressed or has it been put to the bottom of someone's in tray for a further 18 months.

 

They were made aware last year that the bank being complained about had threatened legal action and implied that they do not have to wait for the Ombudsman !!

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2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

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Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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snap citizen they have lost some very important doc of mine concerning the default and the Hfo documents gggrrr what a bunch...i think i read somewhere that the staff they are mostly self employed ?

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/welcome-consumer-forums/107001-how-do-i-dummies.html

 

 

 

 

Advice & opinions given by patrickq1 are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional

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snap citizen they have lost some very important doc of mine concerning the default and the Hfo documents gggrrr what a bunch...i think i read somewhere that the staff they are mostly self employed ?

 

:D Hmmm, I wonder why.. would you employ them :rolleyes::D

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Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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after readin the news report i would nt give them lot a job as

bog attendants

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/welcome-consumer-forums/107001-how-do-i-dummies.html

 

 

 

 

Advice & opinions given by patrickq1 are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional

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If you are unhappy with the way in which the Ombudsman is dealing with, or the time taken to deal with your complaint. Then please :

 

Read the sticky in the following link and make a complaint to the Independant Assessor.

 

The Financial Ombudsman - from Wikipedia

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...t-2719994.html

 

 

 

The Independent Assessor reports formally to the board of the Financial Ombudsman Service - which publishes his report in full each year as part of the Financial Ombudsman Service's annual review [43][44][45][46][47][48].

Mr Barnes' track record so far is to uphold in part or fully between 10-15% of complaints about the ombudsman's service quality.

The Financial Ombudsman - from Wikipedia

 

read the links in the quote above. The address is in link 40

 

Address for Independant Assessor

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Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Be aware that if you make a complaint to the Service Review Team whilst your complaint to the FOS is still being considered, everything gets put on hold whilst they deal with that.

 

If delay is already an issue, it might be best to wait until your complaint to the FOS is resolved before making a complaint about the FOS. You have to go through the procedure with the Service Review Team before involving the independent assessor.

RMW

"If you want my parking space, please take my disability" Common car park sign in France.

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Be aware that if you make a complaint to the Service Review Team whilst your complaint to the FOS is still being considered, everything gets put on hold whilst they deal with that.

 

If delay is already an issue, it might be best to wait until your complaint to the FOS is resolved before making a complaint about the FOS. You have to go through the procedure with the Service Review Team before involving the independent assessor.

 

Ok, thanks for this information RMW :D

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Putting your complaint to the FOS on hold whilst they investigate a complaint about the FOS sort of makes sense I suppose, but I do think they ought to make it clear that this will happen, rather than letting you find out when they've been investigating for three months.

RMW

"If you want my parking space, please take my disability" Common car park sign in France.

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When i complained tothe FOS about Capital One they said they (the FOS) received the reply in time, although Capital One had sent MY copy to my old address, where I hadn't lived for 18 months at that point. They refused to reopen the case from that point and said as I hadn't complained there was nothing they could do.... I couldn't complain as I hadn't had Capital Ones lying letter..... complete idiots.

Edited by sillygirl1
missed a bit
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Must admit had the same problem with the FOS and ICO, who readily accepted that a creditor could send a modern day agreement - in place of the "executed agreement" as signed on application and outlined in s78(1).

 

From my experience about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

 

I would imagine the only instance where you would get a ruling your favour would be if the banks seriously stepped out of line.

Advice offered by ENRON is without prejudice and is for your judgement as to whether to take it. You should seek the assistance or hire of a solicitor or other paid professional if in doubt.

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i have four different fso people all hanling the same complaint sorry five of them..1st 2006..2.nd 2006...3rd.2007...4th..2008..5th. 2009..

wot a bunch of no hopers ime just as stupid for beleiving they would actually do something...doh

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/welcome-consumer-forums/107001-how-do-i-dummies.html

 

 

 

 

Advice & opinions given by patrickq1 are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional

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  • 2 weeks later...
If you are unhappy with the way in which the Ombudsman is dealing with, or the time taken to deal with your complaint. Then please :

 

Read the sticky in the following link and make a complaint to the Independant Assessor.

 

The Financial Ombudsman - from Wikipedia

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...t-2719994.html

 

 

 

 

The Financial Ombudsman - from Wikipedia

 

read the links in the quote above. The address is in link 40

 

Address for Independant Assessor

 

 

Don't bother with him either, he is just as bad (and so "Independant" he is appointed by the FOS board.

 

FOS has

 

1. re written the frase "The Truth The Whole Truth and Nothing But the truth"

regarding a PPI although I was not given all the choices literature was sent to me regarding this option therefore allowing me to make an informed decision. :eek:

 

2. Allowed my bank to do a complete "U" turn on the main issue just by saying it was a mistake. :-?

 

3. Failed to advise me when 2 happened Despite the IA's recommendations that the consumer must be advised when new or amended evidence is produced. :evil:

 

4. Stated that due to lack of evidence from the bank they had no alternative but to decide on the likelyhood of a mis-sale and found that it would not have happened. They then publish figures showing that the bank in question had mis-sold PPI on 86% of the complaints they had received. :Cry::evil: :?

 

I complain to the ombudsman's complaints service they say that complaint has been dealt with correctly.

 

I then complain to the so called "Independant" Assessor who says he can only deal with administrative errors and can not decide if their conclusion is right or wrong. I send in the above plus one of the cases on the FOS website where the consumer had received a much higher level of service than i had reveived but still he says nothing wrong.

 

I then look at the reports of the assessor given on FOS website. Strangely where he gives a breakdown of complaints etc. and it says he received X amount of complaints of which Y were upheld for amounts ranging from £1 to £500.

 

So it would appear that when FOS do screw up, they NEVER screw up on cases worth more than £500. :-? :-? :-?

 

Yea Right :roll:

 

edit: Sorry I forgot to mention my complaint involved an amount of around £8,000.

Edited by rdm2006

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A LETTER RECEIVED YEST REF HSBC

THANK YOU FORN YR LETTER OF 23JAN

FINALLY I NOTE THE CLOSING COMMENT IN YR RECENT LETTER , HOWEVER OOPS I PUT THAT THEY ARE BIASED AND IN FAVOUR OF THE VERY BANKS THAT FUND THEM , AND MERELY PUPPETS I WOULD CLARIFY THAT THE ROLE OF THIS SERVICE IS NOT TO REGULATE THE BANKS , I AM THEREFORE UNABLE TO COMMENT FURTHER IN THIS REGARD .

IF YOU DISAGREE WITH THE OUTCOME BLA BLA

AFTER 23 YRS WITH HSBC THEY MANAGE TO REVEIW ALL MY COMPLAINTS WITHIN A VERY SHORT SPACE OF TIME AND SAY THEY HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY ABOVE BOARD

 

YER RIGHTO MATE

FOR GODS SAKE SOMEONE TURN SOUTH QUAY PLAZA INTO A MUSEUM ,HOTEL,THEY ARE SITTING ON A FEW QUIDS WORTH THERE

OR A HOME FOR THE POOR /HOMELESS

I WONDER IF ITS LEASED ,OWNED ETC AND BY WHOM

Edited by charley2212
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I know a lot of people are angry with Parliament at the moment but MPs and candidates are all fighting for seats in the run up to the election. Get political, go and see all the candidates in your area and tell them about your experiences. I certainly am. Tell them you don't think the FOS is fit for purpose and while you're at it ask how much funding is coming to their parties from insurance companies & banks etc. SJ :-x

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  • 3 weeks later...

I see mention in the forum of FOS interest rate calculations etc. Basically FOS often do not check firms calculations properly, if at all, especially if the firm has made an offer. See below my evidence to the Hunt Review of the FOS.

 

"It is FOS policy that firms which submit offers of compensation are treated differently from those which do not make an offer. Few ordinary people will be able to understand this. This policy is not made known to claimants so far as I know, yet the professional claims managers at the firms are well aware of it. All the firms must know that if they submit an offer there is a good chance that the FOS will not check the calculations, nor will the offer be compared with the FOS in-house guidelines. In the light of this, a good tactical move would be to submit a low offer and hope the FOS lets it though without checking.

A good example of the use of this policy by a firm is in the case of my Aunt. The firm proposed a reasonable offer and backed it up with its own calculations. FOS said fine, it looks reasonable, we don't need to check it. In fact the interest rate used was not reasonable ( a higher rate was available anywhere and it was 1% below the FOS recommended figure) and a tax error was not noticed resulting in an underpayment of £8000. But because the offer met the FOS's requirements to be allowed though without checking, it got though the net.

 

I know this is definite FOS policy, I have it in writing from the Service Review Team and the Independent Assessor. It is a deeply flawed policy, unfair to claimants and biased in favour of firms. FOS should review this policy."

 

To read more and see what really happens when you go to the FOS please see my full evidence to the Hunt Review at

www.financial-ombudsman-problems.co.uk

  • Haha 1
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good post auntie , the fos are a total waste of time , they pay lip service to the media with their results tables etc

i have a few cases with em at the mo , bc cap 1 and hsbc only received responses ref my hsbc claim and then they have totally confused the situation by splitting the claim up just to confuse even more , and so far they agree with hsbc , after 23 yrs of being with them they have managed to investigate in five mins .

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  • 2 weeks later...

i can vouch for the FOS's bad decisions, i've been a victim of theirs for many claims and have lost thousands as a result of their 'set in stone' biased decisions, to which the banks always refer to.

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how do I launch an investigation by independant assesor into a claim that has taken nearly 3 years???

Only direct action by the masses will work....

 

Look at all successes they have never come from negotiation!!!

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We had a complaint against Firstplus and we were intially offered £100 compensation for harassment for a arrears which we did not have. Firstplus kindly or by accident sent me the letter that had been sent to Firstplus and the adjudicator clearly sided with Firstplus. We refused the £100 and advised that we wanted the issue escalated to an ombudsman at which point we were contacted by the adjudicator adn a new offer of £300 was presented. We then accepted this.

The point being is that if we had not objected FOS would have closed the case in favour of Firstplus! This was also pointed out to the adjudicator.

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my three complaints with FOS go back as far as 2006 and nothing has happened cept to say they have lost some very important documents ? so i am about to esculate my complaint you will get the omsbudsman address of the FOS website..

patrickq1

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/welcome-consumer-forums/107001-how-do-i-dummies.html

 

 

 

 

Advice & opinions given by patrickq1 are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional

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how do I launch an investigation by independant assesor into a claim that has taken nearly 3 years???

 

You need to escalate the case to the Service Review Team and then the Independant Assessor (who isn't really that independant).

 

But either cannot change the Adjudicator/Ombudsman decision but only look at the service you have received, even if you say the service was biased etc.

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i truthfully cant see the point in complaining to the FOS the only complaint that needs be made is to some other authority that the FOS are unfit for purpose ..i wonder if trading standards would look at it lol or even the FSA o FSA wont as they only deal with Major complaints it helps them waste goverment money our taxes...so newspapers are the only ones this way the FOS may be forced to act in a fit and proper manner

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/welcome-consumer-forums/107001-how-do-i-dummies.html

 

 

 

 

Advice & opinions given by patrickq1 are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional

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i truthfully cant see the point in complaining to the FOS the only complaint that needs be made is to some other authority that the FOS are unfit for purpose ..i wonder if trading standards would look at it lol or even the FSA o FSA wont as they only deal with Major complaints it helps them waste goverment money our taxes...so newspapers are the only ones this way the FOS may be forced to act in a fit and proper manner

yes i agree patricq1 , would be nice to do a petition and send or present this to them cag oscar

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Have I read somewhere that FOS is now under the umbrella of the FSA and there were talks of that being reversed FSA under FOS (God forbid that one)

HTH (Hope This Helps) RDM2006

 

THE FORCE (OF CAG) IS WITH YOU

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All advice and opinions given by people on this site are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, please seek qualified professional legal Help.

 

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Why not show your gratitude And

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