Caught using my husband's annual Travelcard

[rebel11]

The article is by Andrew Gilligan in the Evening Standard.

[rebel11]

Dated 13 08 09

[rebel11]

'Penalty Fare' was part of the website address, I wasn't referring to anything.

[Old-CodJA]

'Penalty Fare' was part of the website address, I wasn't referring to anything.

 

Well, you have forced a further response there rebel11.

 

As I said, an old article previously discussed two months ago on this and other forums.

 

The whole article was concerned with Penalty fares and if you had actually read and understood it fully, you would have taken note of the last paragraph, which made clear the distinction concerning fare evasion, which is an entirely separate and more serious matter.

Edited October 26, 2009 by Old-CodJA

[andydd]

Firstly I haven to say that to have 'experts' opinion on certain topics within CAG is invaluable, so thanks to Old-Codja.

 

I also found the link to the newspaper article quite interesting, especially the part about not buying a ticket as machines broken, huge queues, etc. i found myself in this situation recently and the inspector was telling me allsorts of rubbish, however she was called away to deal with a troublesome passenger and we didnt discuss it any more and I continued my journey without a ticket.

 

The part about using it purely as revenue raising was interesting, i do believe that Ken Livingstone touched on this when he was 'caught' without a ticket.

 

Could someone point to the thread on here (or another site) that discusses it in more detail as Old-Codja mentioned.

 

Thanks

 

Andy

[Old-CodJA]

Firstly I haven to say that to have 'experts' opinion on certain topics within CAG is invaluable, so thanks to Old-Codja.

 

I also found the link to the newspaper article quite interesting, especially the part about not buying a ticket as machines broken, huge queues, etc. i found myself in this situation recently and the inspector was telling me allsorts of rubbish, however she was called away to deal with a troublesome passenger and we didnt discuss it any more and I continued my journey without a ticket.

 

The part about using it purely as revenue raising was interesting, i do believe that Ken Livingstone touched on this when he was 'caught' without a ticket.

 

Could someone point to the thread on here (or another site) that discusses it in more detail as Old-Codja mentioned.

 

Thanks

 

Andy

 

There certainly are issues that were worthy of further exploration, but as I recall, the publisher of the original article advised that CAG were required to remove the discussion & link.

 

I'm sure that the site team will correct me if I'm wrong and I apologise if that is the case, but that is how I remember it.

 

I recall a thread on MSE too. but I've just had a look and can find nothing on there now either.

[andydd]

There certainly are issues that were worthy of further exploration, but as I recall, the publisher of the original article advised that CAG were required to remove the discussion & link.

 

I'm sure that the site team will correct me if I'm wrong and I apologise if that is the case, but that is how I remember it.

 

I recall a thread on MSE too. but I've just had a look and can find nothing on there now either.

 

Aha..That what the earlier posts were refering to...Didnt know about the legal action. Its a pity when stuff like that happens, especially when it concerns the previously uncensored Internet.

 

Andy

[RPI]

The article that was in the paper actually contained some errors, with regards to queueing times etc you could still be "done" for byelaw 18.

 

As for TOC's using PF's as a revenue raising tool I don't agree, Penalty fares and UPFN's are all dealt with by a third party and it certainly isn't free, I do recall a manager once saying that it cost's the TOC £5.00 to process a UPFN about 10 years ago, so it would probably cost the same for a Penalty fare which are usually processed by the same company as UPFN's, bear in mind at that time the Penalty fare was only £10.00.

 

Each TOC i've worked for has always maintained that Penalty fares are a deterrent.

[Old-CodJA]

The article that was in the paper actually contained some errors, with regards to queueing times etc you could still be "done" for byelaw 18.

 

As for TOC's using PF's as a revenue raising tool I don't agree, Penalty fares and UPFN's are all dealt with by a third party and it certainly isn't free, I do recall a manager once saying that it cost's the TOC £5.00 to process a UPFN about 10 years ago, so it would probably cost the same for a Penalty fare which are usually processed by the same company as UPFN's, bear in mind at that time the Penalty fare was only £10.00.

 

Each TOC i've worked for has always maintained that Penalty fares are a deterrent.

 

These are good points, but Penalty Fares are entirely unconnected with the OP on this thread.

 

I would be very happy to see a sensible debate on the subject, without referring to links to the article that caused CAG a problem.

 

Perhaps, if people want to air their views on whether PFs are a legitimate revenue stream in their own right, this should be a wholly new thread thereby avoiding confusing penalty fares with fare evasion and avoiding the likelihood of giving the OP innaccurate advice.

[skiesthelimit1234]

Hi ABC

 

I've been reading your post about you geting caught using your husband's travel pass and wanted to know what the outcome was in the end.

 

I gave my husbnad my monthly pass to use with his photo ID and he got caught with it this morning. The inspector said to expect a letter soon with a fine and that he will get a criminal record.

 

We will of course pay the fine but want to avoid a criminal record. Your advice on this is much appreciated.

[Wriggler7]

Season tickets are not transferable.

 

If this is a first offence, it may be that you will be able to pay an out of court settlement.

 

But: The Train operator has a strong position on this one, 'husband' seems to have committed an offence which can be prosecuted in a Magistrates Court, and on the face of it, you could be prosecuted for aiding and abetting the offence.

 

I dare say that the Inspector will have done some research, and looked at both your season ticket histories, as well as any known 'previous'. (penalty fares, previous reported offences, dubious season refunds and so on)

 

Wait and see what sort of letter you get, and answer it as best you can. I also guess that they will want to interview you when you want a replacement monthly ticket.

[skiesthelimit1234]

Wriggler7 - Thank you for responding back, much appreciated. I will wait and see what the letter says and take it from there.

[Old-CodJA]

Excellent advice by Wriggler and pretty well mirrors the response I have given on your other thread regarding the same case.

[skiesthelimit1234]

Thanks both Old-CodJA and Wriggler7 for taking the time to reply. Reading various posts and your responses to this type of case has been most helpful. All I can do is expect the worst and hope for the best!

[Wriggler7]

Has this matter reached a conclusion?

[skiesthelimit1234]

We were very very lucky, the rail company decided to settle out of court, giving us a fine plus administration charges which we have now paid and the whole issue is now resolved. I will never ever being doing this again and will think before doing anything rash!!

 

Again, thank you for all your advice much appreciated.

[honeybunny2010]

Can you give more detail about the procedure and what you have written to TFL? Thanks.

[reckless.engineer]

SkiesTheLimit,

 

I'm glad to hear that you were able to avoid going to court.

 

How did you manage to reach a settlement with the train operating company?

 

Thanks.

[mscrivs77]

SkiesTheLimit

 

I would be very interested to hear what you wrote in your letter.

 

I was recently caught using my sister-in-law's annual travel card and have received a letter from the prosecution. I'll looking at moving to Australia and really want to avoid a criminal record.

[Wriggler7]

Every case will have unique features, and therefore will be looked at differently by the 'prosecuting authority'. Indeed, each prosecuting authority will have it's own priorities. As such, responses will need to be tailored according to the nature of the case, and the way that the train company indicates that it wishes to deal with the matter.

 

Without giving us details that identify you, please tel us more about the matter. What train company is it? What happened when you were caught?

[mscrivs77]

Thanks for your reply Wriggler7.

 

I was traveling from Kings Cross back to Harpenden after attending a job interview when the inspector requested a ticket so I presented him with the travel card. He then requested the photo ID card that accompanied the ticket to which I replied that the ticket was not mine and was unaware that the ticket had to be accompanied by the ID card. I offered the pay the fare and fine at that moment in time but was told because I had present a ticket that was not mine it would be reported.

 

Obviously he retained the ticket and having been paying my sister in law's train fare since.

 

Let me know if you need anymore details.

[Old-CodJA]

Thanks for your reply Wriggler7.

 

He then requested the photo ID card that accompanied the ticket to which I replied that the ticket was not mine and was unaware that the ticket had to be accompanied by the ID card.

 

Printed on the face of all these tickets you will normally find the instruction 'Valid only when shown with Photocard number XXXXX' and on the Photo card 'Valid only when shown with a ticket bearing this number XXXXX'

 

A season ticket is valid only for use by the person to whom it is issued.

 

Any prejudicial breach of the conditions of issue may result in the ticket being withdrawn and it is a matter for the TOC whether they will reissue it.

 

You will receive a verification letter from FCC and you should wait until then before you reply, quoting their reference number and send a prompt response to the address from whence you have received their letter. Your best bet is to write an entirely truthful account of the incident and be aware that the reporting inspector will have made notes of what you said at the time.

 

Dependent on what you told them, you will be trying to persuade the prosecution manager to allow you to settle the matter without Court action.

 

When you get the letter and know what their intentions are, come back and let us know.

[mscrivs77]

Their intentions are as below:

 

travelling without a valid ticket

receiving a ticket with intent

[Old-CodJA]

Their intentions are as below:

 

travelling without a valid ticket

receiving a ticket with intent

 

 

 

It seems likely that they are going for two strict liability charges there

 

1. Travelling without a valid ticket:

'fail to show a valid ticket when asked' contrary to National Railway Byelaw 18.2 (2005),

 

2. Receive a ticket with intent:

'receiving a transfered ticket with the intention of not paying the correct fare' contrary National Railway Byelaw 22.2 (2005)

 

Both carry the same penalty if convicted, a fine up to a maximum of £1000.

[vaarun]

We were very very lucky, the rail company decided to settle out of court, giving us a fine plus administration charges which we have now paid and the whole issue is now resolved. I will never ever being doing this again and will think before doing anything rash!!

 

Again, thank you for all your advice much appreciated.

 

 

Hi even I am in same situation.

How did you manage to reach a settlement with the train operating company?

 

could you please post your letter so that it would b very helpful for me deleting your personal details.

 

Thank You