CCA 1974 - Question

[rebel11]

If certain terms have been omitted form CCA's then why is it just unenforcable? why isn't it a fraudulant document?

 

If I printed off a £50 note and presented it to a bank for a transaction that would be fraud, is it not the same case with these CCA's printed

off by the banks, credit card companies and others.

 

The CCA 1974 has been around for over 30 years. The banks, credit card companies and others have had many years to get it right, yet they continue to hoodwink consumers, thus disadvantaging them.

 

The Act is there to protect 'consumers'.

[lexis200]

If certain terms have been omitted form CCA's then why is it just unenforcable? why isn't it a fraudulant document?

 

If I printed off a £50 note and presented it to a bank for a transaction that would be fraud, is it not the same case with these CCA's printed

off by the banks, credit card companies and others.Well not really because you'd be trying to pass off money that wasn't real, whereas they are trying to lend you money, they just haven't given you all the details about it.

 

The CCA 1974 has been around for over 30 years. The banks, credit card companies and others have had many years to get it right, yet they continue to hoodwink consumers, thus disadvantaging them.

 

The Act is there to protect 'consumers'.

 

I see what you're getting at, but I don't think omitting terms can really amount to fraud. If they try to imply you've signed up for something you haven't by sticking your signature on a previously unsigned document, that's fraud. If they've just lent you money without telling you that your credit limit is x amount, that's just bad documentation.

[rebel11]

They've had 30 years to get it right, they've done it on hundreds of thousands of agreements, the scale of it gets you thinking.

[rebel11]

If I asked every Bank, Credit Company, loan company in the land for every

CCA application they have produced in the last 30 years. That would be very telling indeed. You might see a pattern of years of embracing the CCA 1974, followed by years when the cca 1974 hasn't been embraced,

probably down to commercial reasons.

[lexis200]

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with the fact they are clearly ignoring the legalities on these documents - generally so that they have more space for advertising their other products as it goes - I just don't think it amounts to fraud.

 

It's certainly disgraceful that they a) are still getting it wrong 30 years on and b) that it's not an automatic release from your contract if they haven't got the basic requirements there, but I don't think you'd get far accusing them of fraud for it:(

[rebel11]

I did spend a few minutes thinking for a word to replace fraud and I haven't sent any documention to any companies as yet. It's just my thoughts.

[rebel11]

Should I send out the bank charges request first, before sending out the CCA s78? or doesn't it matter?

[rebel11]

Going for bank and credit card charges first.

[rebel11]

Sent off 5 Subject Access Requests yesterday. 3 envolpes which all weighed the same, same size. The lady at the counter, first letter went threw her measuring device, but she pretended she couldn't get the other

two letters threw. But by magic I told her to push harder. She wanted to charge me more for recoreded delivery.

[lexis200]

Cheeky!

 

Keep us updated when you get your responses:)

[rebel11]

This is briefly whats happened with one MBNA account.

MBNA VISA OPENED ACCOUNT 1996 (contract looks unenforceable)

Didn't ask for PPI added then - refunded.

Last statement received 1999. (asked account to be closed)

no statements received between 1999 - Dec 2004

no Credit Card's received between 1999 - to present day

 

Received new statement in Dec 2004 with new account number

I wrote a Credit card Cheque PPI added then refunded

 

They told me the account was dormant although I'd asked for it to be closed in 1999. The only CCA was signed back in 1996. I asked for 70+ statements for the account in 2005, they told me it would cost £185,

£2.50 each. Although statements between 1999 - Nov 2004 don't exist.

This account has had 3 account numbers. They've come up with one

excuse, an update of account numbers in may 2004. I went to the FOS,

in 2005, they didn't want to tell me about CCA.

 

Any thoughts?

Edited October 30, 2009 by rebel11

[lexis200]

Well if the account is, as they say, only dormant, then get an SAR into them. At the same time write a complaint about them wanting to charge you nearly £200 for statements, when what they should have told you is that an SAR would get you them (and a load of other info) for a tenner.

 

If they turn round and say it was closed in '99, then get straight back to them with why they issued a statement for a new number in '04.

 

If there were 3 account numbers then they should have 3 CCA's, technically speaking. Now I know this doesn't always happen as my OH had a BOS card change from visa to mc with a new number and nothing more than a note on one of his statements to explain it, but I'm fairly sure this is really not right. If they change the account, the agreement you originally signed is kaput and they need to you agree to the new account with the new number.

 

You might find it useful to pose this question on the large CCA thread as I'm sure it's been covered there before - something about new tokens being issued.

 

Also, if they came up with £185 as a cost to you, they must have had 74 statements available to send to you. This means one of two things. Either -

 

They didn't ever close the account and the 74 statements relate to the 6 odd years you thought the account was out of action for. This is very interesting to you as they have completely disregarded your request.

 

Or

 

They have kept statements right from the opening of the account up to about '02. If it's this one it's very very interesting, as they quote time and again that they destroy statements after six years (which according to the Tax Man puts them in a bit of a pickle if they have to prove a bought-forward balance, but I've put this to them more than once and they just hedge the issue)

 

The FOS don't really like to get involved unless you really push them into it, so suggesting a way you can help yourself is massively unlikely to come from them. Superb for a government body that's in place to help the consumer really isn't it:rolleyes:

[rebel11]

lexis200,

 

Where abouts is the 'large CCA thread'?

 

Thanks for your comments, it looks like there are facts, but they have rearranged them to hoodwink me.

[lexis200]

here you go

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/33174-consumer-credit-act-agreements-801.html

[rebel11]

lexis200,

 

many thanks

[vint1954]

This is briefly whats happened with one MBNA account.

MBNA VISA OPENED ACCOUNT 1996 (contract looks unenforceable)

Didn't ask for PPI added then - refunded.

Last statement received 1999. (asked account to be closed)

no statements received between 1999 - Dec 2004

no Credit Card's received between 1999 - to present day

 

Received new statement in Dec 2004 with new account number

I wrote a Credit card Cheque PPI added then refunded

 

Has this been paid off or is there still a ballance on the account.

 

They told me the account was dormant although I'd asked for it to be closed in 1999. The only CCA was signed back in 1996. I asked for 70+ statements for the account in 2005, they told me it would cost £185,

£2.50 each. Although statements between 1999 - Nov 2004 don't exist.

This account has had 3 account numbers.

 

As Lexis has said, they need to keep account documents for 6 years for Tax purposes, but 6 years past the closeure of the account for money laundering regulations.

 

They've come up with one

excuse, an update of account numbers in may 2004. I went to the FOS,

in 2005, they didn't want to tell me about CCA.

 

Any thoughts?

Vint

[rebel11]

Theres still a balance on the account.

[Wilma Shoozfit]

Hi Rebel

If I was you I would definately get a SAR sent off to them, you should get your statements together with their computerised data reports for all the accounts they have, plus computer printous of any letters they have sent you.

 

I've a similar saga going on with B/C. Information about my two accounts came to light when I sent them a SAR and got data printouts for both accounts. Turns out they closed my original account when I reported my card stolen in 07. They opened a new one using out of date info from a 4 year old application form. Ironic really - If I'd opened an account using this info I would have been guilty of fraud. I've asked them to explain why they didn't open new accounts when previous cards were lost/stolen in the post, , if this is standard proceedure. B/C went very quiet and then passed the account to a DCA who asked for payment in full in 7 days - I told them to go forth and multiply - so far they have.

 

I'll be subbing your thread with interest - I'm looking for inspiration on how to handle B/C. They won't take me to court as they know they don't have a credit agreement, but that hasn't stopped them trashing my credit file.

 

cheers

Wils

[rebel11]

I think this is important as highlighted by lexus, hopefully someone knows a bit about this.

 

'You might find it useful to pose this question on the large CCA thread as I'm sure it's been covered there before - something about new tokens being issued.'

[rebel11]

Right, if there saying it's the same account. They should of sent continuous statements, there was a gap of five years.

 

 

The 1974 Act includes requirements in respect of:

• periodic statements for running-account credit
  

[means2anend]

Hi rebel 11

 

Whether you have a fixed sum agreement or a running account facility.either way it doesnt matter at the early stage.

 

First logical step is request a copy of the original agreement for either, under section 77 subsection 1 and check out subsection 4 paras (a) and (b)...keep in mind section 168 and then at the proper time bang in a section 142 CCA 1974

 

Rgds

Means2anend

[rebel11]

I've got a copy of the original agreement, it's the second one in the MBNA

Library. MBNA sent it to me in 2005 to back up there stance.

[rebel11]

The point is that I signed an agreement in 1996. The account existed up to 1999. Nothing for 5 years until they restarted it, no statements, no credit cards, no new agreements to sign.

[rebel11]

The plan of action I think is:-

 

a) Send SAR - to see what statements they send.

b) S85 - they should have sent me a new agreement to sign as they allocated a new account number in 2004.

 

My knowledge is limited. But I think thats what I need to do.

[rebel11]

Will send off SAR today for the two accounts, but the five account numbers they've used.