Disciplinary Hearing Next Week - please help!!

[orfoster]

Yes he should, innocent until proven guilty!

[hardworking_harddoneby]

Just re-read this and noticed that you asked earlier if he should be paid for the 2 weeks while he was suspended.

 

Yes he should, unless it clearly states in his contract of employment that he will not be paid while suspended.

 

Please update the thread when you receive a response to the appeal request.

 

 

Hiya everyone,

Got a letter today, hand delivered -

 

I write further to your email of 20th october 2009 and the notice of your intention to appeal the decision to dismiss you, taken on 14 th October 2009.

I note from your email that you wish to appeal this decision on the grounds od issues that you have with regard to the reasons for your dismissal. I am more than happy to arrange for an appeal meeting to be held, but I would ask that before I do so, you provide written details of the issues that you have. This will allow us to consider your concerns in advance of any appeal, in order that we can be prepared to properly discuss these at the meeting.

Once I have received details of your specific concerns in writingm i will contact you again to arrange a date for the appeal meeting.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in due course.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

 

xx xxxxxx]

 

 

 

 

 

Obviously any help offered on what to respond with would be great.

 

And thankd for the advice on the JC, we have a meeting set up early next week, we need help as we wont make this months private rent and are struggling as it is

 

Is there anyone with knowledge of benefits here - I ask because im not sure whether to claim JS as well as my baby only 4 months old and would prefer to wait until hes a bit older?

xxxx

[hardworking_harddoneby]

Hiya,

 

Has he been down to the job centre yet to sign on? I know there is a delay because of the "gross misconduct" claim but I believe you have to start the claim for job seekers now.

 

Keep us posted on it all.

 

Never mind, we will try and help sort this but hopefully in his next job he can join a union that will help him.

 

Oli

 

 

Thanks Oli, i would have seriously gone mad by now if it wasn't for the advice and support given on the forum, i really am so grateful, xxx

[andie_303]

Hi there,

 

I don't believe you have to document any issues to them before hand - the appeals meeting is there for your hubby to set out what he believes are the issues and then they have the ability to go off and consider them.

 

I'm sure someone will either confirm or put me right if I am incorrect on this.

[hardworking_harddoneby]

Hi Andy, thanks for replying... thats what I immediately thought, boss just wants a head start on the meeting??.....

 

Incidentally, on the matter of reasons for dismissal, my partner remembered something relevant to point a) -the blast chiller... there was another chef in the kitchen, (still employed and in fact the traitor who submitted a statement against my partner regarding the labelling of food items) who was trained to be the kitchen rep for health and safety and my partner remembers him attending at least 2 courses on h&s. His name is actually on the h&s declaration....

Also it mentions in one of the statements regarding food labelling that it was dangerous for food in the freezer not being dated, but surely by the nature of freezing the food it ensures it would not go off ??? I know that he can appeal that these are petty reasons that should warrant a warning first not gross misconduct but would that be a valid point ?

xxxx

[hardworking_harddoneby]

Anyone??? xxxx

[mariefab]

Also it mentions in one of the statements regarding food labelling that it was dangerous for food in the freezer not being dated, but surely by the nature of freezing the food it ensures it would not go off ???

 

Sorry, but all the food in the freezer should be dated. That said, failing to do so in one instance should only lead to a reminder of food safety training. Repeated instances could lead to a written warning.

 

I'm afraid that when I have previously advised people that they were not required to give grounds for an appeal I was wrong (although thankfully none of the previous employers appear to have realised this).

 

I've discovered that it's written in the ACAS code that, 'Employees should let employers know the grounds for their appeal in writing'.

 

I suppose that different employers would require varied levels of detail, but I think in your case Mr Clever will obfuscate and delay until he has wrung every last morsel of information from you before scheduling the appeal. So, perhaps it would save time to just let him have it.

 

How about......Cover letter, amend as you wish:

 

Dear........

 

Thank you for your letter of ??/10/09 in which you state your happiness to arrange an appeal meeting.

 

I am bemused that you have asked me to provide you with specific written details of the issues I have with the reasons for my dismissal, for your consideration in advance of the appeal, as I thought that it was the purpose of the appeal meeting itself for me to present my case on why I feel the decision to dismiss me should be overturned.

 

However, I am happy to comply and enclose the information requested.

 

I would appreciate a date for the appeal meeting as soon as conveniently possible.

 

Yours etc.

-------

 

ISSUE 1.

 

I believe that you used the disciplinary procedure to dismiss me simply in order to avoid having to pay me to work the rest of my notice period.

 

On ??/??/09 I handed in a letter giving what I understood from my contract to be the required 12 weeks notice to terminate my employment.

 

While I was working my notice 2 new replacement chefs were hired.

 

With ? weeks notice remaining I was called to a meeting on Monday ??/??/09. At that meeting you told me that I could either accept £? and sign a letter agreeing to cut short my notice period or you would find someone to say that I was running the kitchen poorly and I would therefore be sacked.

 

Acting on advice from ACAS I sent you an email on ??/??/09 to say that I didn't accept your offer and that I would be attending work as usual on Wednesday ??/??/09.

 

Upon my arrival on ??/??/09 I was duly presented with a letter informing me that I was suspended on full pay whilst concerns that had come to your attention were looked into.

 

Later that day a colleague delivered another letter including; the information that a disciplinary hearing would take place on ??/??/09, a statement of the grounds for the disciplinary procedure, 2 statements from new starters and a statement from a long-standing team member.

 

The disciplinary hearing took place as arranged and you dismissed me; thereby carrying out the threat made at the meeting on ??/??/09.

-------

 

I'll spend some time with the Food Act and the Food Hygiene Regulations over the next day or two so that I can compose ISSUE 2, which I hope will trash his statement of reasons for dismissal.

[hardworking_harddoneby]

Also it mentions in one of the statements regarding food labelling that it was dangerous for food in the freezer not being dated, but surely by the nature of freezing the food it ensures it would not go off ???

 

Sorry, but all the food in the freezer should be dated. That said, failing to do so in one instance should only lead to a reminder of food safety training. Repeated instances could lead to a written warning.

 

I'm afraid that when I have previously advised people that they were not required to give grounds for an appeal I was wrong (although thankfully none of the previous employers appear to have realised this).

 

I've discovered that it's written in the ACAS code that, 'Employees should let employers know the grounds for their appeal in writing'.

 

I suppose that different employers would require varied levels of detail, but I think in your case Mr Clever will obfuscate and delay until he has wrung every last morsel of information from you before scheduling the appeal. So, perhaps it would save time to just let him have it.

 

How about......Cover letter, amend as you wish:

 

Dear........

 

Thank you for your letter of ??/10/09 in which you state your happiness to arrange an appeal meeting.

 

I am bemused that you have asked me to provide you with specific written details of the issues I have with the reasons for my dismissal, for your consideration in advance of the appeal, as I thought that it was the purpose of the appeal meeting itself for me to present my case on why I feel the decision to dismiss me should be overturned.

 

However, I am happy to comply and enclose the information requested.

 

I would appreciate a date for the appeal meeting as soon as conveniently possible.

 

Yours etc.

-------

 

ISSUE 1.

 

I believe that you used the disciplinary procedure to dismiss me simply in order to avoid having to pay me to work the rest of my notice period.

 

On ??/??/09 I handed in a letter giving what I understood from my contract to be the required 12 weeks notice to terminate my employment.

 

While I was working my notice 2 new replacement chefs were hired.

 

With ? weeks notice remaining I was called to a meeting on Monday ??/??/09. At that meeting you told me that I could either accept £? and sign a letter agreeing to cut short my notice period or you would find someone to say that I was running the kitchen poorly and I would therefore be sacked.

 

Acting on advice from ACAS I sent you an email on ??/??/09 to say that I didn't accept your offer and that I would be attending work as usual on Wednesday ??/??/09.

 

Upon my arrival on ??/??/09 I was duly presented with a letter informing me that I was suspended on full pay whilst concerns that had come to your attention were looked into.

 

Later that day a colleague delivered another letter including; the information that a disciplinary hearing would take place on ??/??/09, a statement of the grounds for the disciplinary procedure, 2 statements from new starters and a statement from a long-standing team member.

 

The disciplinary hearing took place as arranged and you dismissed me; thereby carrying out the threat made at the meeting on ??/??/09.

-------

 

I'll spend some time with the Food Act and the Food Hygiene Regulations over the next day or two so that I can compose ISSUE 2, which I hope will trash his statement of reasons for dismissal.

 

Wow thanks Marie, thats more than i could have hoped for and will compose an email repsonse shortly, as usual bath time in my household speak soon xxxxx

[hardworking_harddoneby]

Sorry just to reiterate, his boss offered him £nothing that first meeting, to waive his notice,

[hardworking_harddoneby]

Marie,

Do i send an email with those points and wait for issue 2 or wait and send one complete email?>

 

Sorry to be a pain xxxx

[mariefab]

Best to send it all in one email I think. I should have isssue 2 done by tomorrow.

[hardworking_harddoneby]

Best to send it all in one email I think. I should have isssue 2 done by tomorrow.

 

 

Ok, thats what I thought, .......... not meaning to rush you by the way MarieFab, of course take your time. I think you're "fab"

 

I tried looking up some things but all very confusing....

 

xxxxx

[mariefab]

Can you post what he was doing to try to sort the blast chiller out himself please?

 

Kudos to your OH for his 92% GP, by the way, the best I ever managed was 87% (for which I scored a considerable bonus because my target gp at the time was only 75%).

[hardworking_harddoneby]

Can you post what he was doing to try to sort the blast chiller out himself please?

 

Kudos to your OH for his 92% GP, by the way, the best I ever managed was 87% (for which I scored a considerable bonus because my target gp at the time was only 75%).

 

 

Sorry!!!!!!! I had mis heard the discussion about GP and just had it relayed again - he actually made 79% and boss said it was AS impossible as 92% - so he didnt get praise or bonus just suspicion.... OH had been above target on GP for ages though but still.... never any praise or bonus. His boss did say he could get a bonus for hitting tagets every month but this was said verbally, and like the promises of christmas bonuses said when drunk, never materialised. You can see why my OH felt he hand to leave, after 5 years he was going nowhere .... anyway, with regards to the blast chiller he was getting quotes from companies and had got 2 so far, the lowest being £600, hes just mentioned to me that a worker who was a qualified electrician in latvia was the one who got it working with the faulty wire in the first place. or ? xxxxxx

[mariefab]

Ha! So I win with my 87%.

(It was only achieved once though in a month that was heavy with corporate and private buffets, I usually averaged 74- 76%)

 

One last question. Can you tell me as much as possible about the cleaning schedule and anything else relevant to cleaning?

[hardworking_harddoneby]

Ha! So I win with my 87%.

(It was only achieved once though in a month that was heavy with corporate and private buffets, I usually averaged 74- 76%)

 

One last question. Can you tell me as much as possible about the cleaning schedule and anything else relevant to cleaning?

 

 

Hiya

Yeah that GP percentage is pretty impressive!

I've asked him and he said there was a daily and weekly schedule, and one each for kps and chefs, The chefs schedule was up tp date and being adhered to but the kp rota was not as there was not a kp employed at the time...

[mariefab]

So that you can copy & paste it in one go I've put the whole thing in this post. I've left the dates for you to fill in, amend the rest to suit. Hope this helps.

 

Dear........

 

Thank you for your letter of ??/10/09 in which you state your happiness to arrange an appeal meeting.

 

I am bemused that you have asked me to provide you with specific written details of the issues I have with the reasons for my dismissal, for your consideration in advance of the appeal, as I thought that it was the purpose of the appeal meeting itself for me to present my case on why I feel the decision to dismiss me should be overturned.

 

However, I am happy to comply and enclose the information requested.

 

I would appreciate a date for the appeal meeting as soon as conveniently possible.

 

Yours etc.

-------

 

ISSUE 1.

 

I believe that you used the disciplinary procedure to dismiss me simply in order to avoid having to pay me to work the rest of my notice period.

 

On ??/??/09 I handed in a letter giving what I understood from my contract to be the required 12 weeks notice to terminate my employment.

 

While I was working my notice 2 new replacement chefs were hired.

 

With ? weeks notice remaining I was called to a meeting on Monday ??/??/09. At that meeting you told me that I could either sign a letter agreeing to cut short my notice period or you would find someone to say that I was running the kitchen poorly and I would therefore be sacked.

 

Acting on advice from ACAS I sent you an email on ??/??/09 to say that I didn't accept your offer and that I would be attending work as usual on Wednesday ??/??/09.

 

Upon my arrival on ??/??/09 I was duly presented with a letter informing me that I was suspended on full pay whilst concerns that had come to your attention were looked into.

 

Later that day a colleague delivered another letter including; the information that a disciplinary hearing would take place on ??/??/09, a statement of the grounds for the disciplinary procedure, 2 statements from the new starters and a statement from a long-standing team member.

 

The disciplinary hearing took place as arranged and you dismissed me; thereby carrying out the threat made at the meeting on ??/??/09.

 

While I appreciate that with 2 new chefs already in place you wished to save wages costs, it would have been more appropriate to negotiate a payment in lieu of notice with me than to abuse the disciplinary process in this manner.

-------

 

ISSUE 2.

I don't believe that the incidents outlined in the dismissal letter amount to Gross Misconduct.

 

Once the opinions and speculation are stripped away, what remains are relatively lesser infringements that should not justify dismissal.

 

1. Starting the blast chiller by inserting a metal implement into it and the health risk if the chiller did not work.

 

The metal implement was a temporary measure, used while I was getting quotes for a permanent solution, and was achieved by a worker who I was informed was a qualified electrician.

 

If I had believed that the blast chiller's condition represented a risk to health and safety I would have raised the issue with the chef who was trained and designated as the kitchen's health and safety rep.

 

A non-working blast chiller doesn't necessarily represent a health risk. There are other acceptable methods of safely reducing food temperature prior to refridgeration. Depending on the type of food some examples are: Refreshing food with cold running water. Placing food in a sealed container and then placing the container in cold water. Covering food and leaving it to cool.

 

2. Food not correctly labelled.

 

All trained food handlers should be aware that food needs to be labelled.

 

As the last date that I was in the kitchen was ??/??/09, I am unable to confirm or deny whether any food was unlabelled on the date of your complaint.

 

Had I been aware that food was unlabelled I would have initially reminded all staff of this food safety requirement and then checked regularly to make sure that this was done. If I discovered further instances I would have considered whether re-training or first stage disciplinary action would have been appropriate.

　

3. Inadequate cleaning standards.

 

In the 5 years that I worked for you no one ever described the level of cleanliness in the kitchen to me as inadequate until after I was suspended.

 

When I last worked in the kitchen, the chef's cleaning schedule was up to date and being adhered to.

 

If you had concerns about the level of cleanliness in the kitchen you could have discussed them with me on any of your frequent visits to the kitchen.

 

On every occasion that an EHO has visited the kitchen they have been very pleased with the standards.

-------

　

ISSUE 3.

 

In the conclusion of the dismissal letter you state, " I am afraid that when taken as a whole, the issues above demonstrate a complete failure by you to adequately and appropriately perform your role, and i am afraid i have no choice but to find that this is gross misconduct, As a result I can confirm that your employment will terminate with immediate effect."

 

This suggests that you felt that you had no choice but to dismiss me.

 

In fact, you had several other choices ranging from verbal to final written warning; none of which appear to have been considered.

 

At no point does it seem that my 5 years of good service have been taken into consideration.

 

In those 5 years I have only had one verbal warning (as part of the whole team). This was a long time ago on issues unrelated to the concerns outlined in the dismissal letter.

 

Although the dismissal letter makes it clear that other staff have commited the infringements that I have been dismissed for; to date, as far as I am aware, no one else has been disciplined or dismissed.

This demonstrates a lack of consistency in your disciplinary procedures.

[hardworking_harddoneby]

OMG MarieFab... I don't know what to say.,.. thats the absolute best reply i could have hoped to give him!! It sums up everything really and is all the gods honest truth - OH has gone fishing today so i will send the email when he's back and seen it, and really, thanks again for your time and effort, I'll let you know when I've sent it,

 

(I'm sarah by the way)

xxxx

[jackiebuchanan1]

I must second that. I thought that I communicated well but your letter is A1.

Jackie

[deathbycrayons]

Hi, I'm subbing to your thread, as my husband is going through similar problems. He was dismissed following a grievance and he's had his appeal, we're now waiting on the decision. Marie is amazing and you will get the best advice from her, she has helped me so much. Good luck with it

[hardworking_harddoneby]

Hi, I'm subbing to your thread, as my husband is going through similar problems. He was dismissed following a grievance and he's had his appeal, we're now waiting on the decision. Marie is amazing and you will get the best advice from her, she has helped me so much. Good luck with it

 

 

Oh I agree, she is amazing!

 

Good luck to your husband too, must be awful waiting though.... do you have a good feeling about it?

[hardworking_harddoneby]

Hi all,

I've just sent the email, will let you know as soon as I get a response, xxxx

[deathbycrayons]

Oh I agree, she is amazing!

 

Good luck to your husband too, must be awful waiting though.... do you have a good feeling about it?

 

Yes I do, his appeal went well and so did the grievance hearing. Also yesterday some more info came to light that we will be informing the company of. If you want to read my thread it's called 'hubby suspended for theft' and the grievance one is 'manager bullying hubby'.

[hardworking_harddoneby]

Had an email response this afternoon,

 

I write further to your email of Sunday 25th October 2009 in which you stated that you wished to appeal the decision to dismiss you on the grounds of gross misconduct.

In accordance with your request, I have scheduled for an Appeal Meeting to be held at 10.00 am on Monday 2nd November 2009 at **** Hotel. This meeting will be chaired by (boss). Your rights to be accompanied remain as stated in my previous letter of 7th October 2009.

Yours sincerely

......

Is it now just a case of waiting, going to appeal meeting and confirming what we have said in the email? Would you advise he takes someone this time and who, like a solicitor?? x

[deathbycrayons]

Had an email response this afternoon,

 

I write further to your email of Sunday 25th October 2009 in which you stated that you wished to appeal the decision to dismiss you on the grounds of gross misconduct.

 

In accordance with your request, I have scheduled for an Appeal Meeting to be held at 10.00 am on Monday 2nd November 2009 at **** Hotel. This meeting will be chaired by (boss). Your rights to be accompanied remain as stated in my previous letter of 7th October 2009.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

......

 

 

Is it now just a case of waiting, going to appeal meeting and confirming what we have said in the email? Would you advise he takes someone this time and who, like a solicitor?? x

 

 

Hmmm I'm wondering if there's someone on CAG who could be your 'CAG buddy' and accompany you..