Cabot/Morgan & My Monument card case

[sir fussalot]

Tonster

D.J. didn't want to know, went thro' the terms and cons Cabrots supplied at the time when I said the prescribed terms weren't there.

 

Found a paragraph about interest rates said well whats that sir fussy?

 

I said there should be the rate of payment.

 

He went thro again until he found the part about payments shall be monthly, said well then?

 

I then queried the default charges being £18 in the T&C's I told him they were not the proper T&C's as I could prove I had allways been charged £24.

 

He replied (sarcastic), sir fussey, has it ever occured to you they may have gone up?

 

No sir, not when these are supposed to be the basis of the agreement,

AND if you look below, it says to vary any charges 30 days notice will be given

He was Not amused......

 

He then told Cabrots to sort this out for the next hearing, BUT,,

sir fussalot, apart from that, I WILL NOT LOOK AGAIN AT THE AGREEMENT

Do you understand, I will not go back to your argument on the validity of the agreement, that is finished.....

 

s.f.

[sir fussalot]

Beau,

your point is correct.

Cabrots are so cocksure that they do not need to supply any "doc's"

They are missing the point completeley

 

I have a letter from Morgans saying they do not need to issue a D.N.

nor did the O.C. as they are only after collcting the arrears

 

Is this a tacit statement that one was not issued. 3 court hearings

not produced or aknowleged any sign of a D.N.

 

Now if the agreement was good IF then the mimimum payment levels would mean its ( the whole amount they are claimimg ).. not fully payable unti 2013

 

s.f.

[sir fussalot]

Incidentally,

 

could someone please P.M. Vint with this post

 

The D.J. accepted from Cabrot that the application form WAS signed by

Providian.

 

This being the stamp that said, " PROVIDIAN 3 NOV 2002 ".

 

they had quoted from proff Roy Goode, who said that a signature cuold be a badge or a mark and not a name..

 

[30.109] (the formalities of Agreement)

What constitutes a signature:

 

Any writing placed on the document by a party with the intention of authenticating it will suffice, whether it be his name his initials or even a cross

a mark or impression.

Similarly the medium employed is not material. The signature may be by pen or pencil, by facsimile stamp or any other form of marking.

 

He goes on,

 

In general law the position of the signature is irrelevant,

it may appear anywhere on the document as a whole.

 

The CCA 1974 requires the signature to be effected in compliance with the

agreement regulations. Regulation 6(3) prescribes the mode of signature of regulated consumer credit and consumer hire agreements. Sch 5 contains the various forms of signature box applicable to different types of agreement.

The debtor or hirer must sign within the required signature box, the creditor or owner or his agent must sign outside that signature box.

 

Quoted from :

Goode:Consumer Credit Law and Practice (this was a page photocopied from the book, and given by Cabrots.)

 

fussey

Edited June 7, 2010 by sir fussalot
wrong stamp quote used.

[Tonster]

Hi SF

 

It sounds like you say he had made his mind up and not having been in court yet myself (although it's coming) I guess you have to say something along the lines of 'respectfully sir, can I direct you to the case of Wilson v etc etc' and also to be able to counter the argument that the Manchester case is irrelevant as that was for a section 78 request and only dealt with what could be sent in response to that request and not what needs to be produced in court and CCA 1974 127 (3) ruling is still in effect and Wilson case supports that (by House of Lords).

I guess he wasn't happy that you were speaking on behalf of your wife and sounds like he decided to give you a hard time right from the off.

 

Perhaps more experienced caggers could give a steer on how to get that enforeability re-looked at in the next hearing as this is crucial and you have case law from the highest court to back it up, the judge needs directing to that case. (will it def be the same judge?)

 

Tonster

[sir fussalot]

Tonster

 

Yep will be same D.J. he "reserved it for himself"

 

I was thinking along the lines of ,

 

You did say that save for the T&C's from Cabot to be correct, if you are going to accept the application form as the agreement, I would respectfully ask that you make a note of why you have accepted it, in the court notes".

 

The T&C's that Cabrot have NOW supplied are still NOT correct.

 

That's now three different lots from them.

 

Plus with the original D.J. (this will be the 3rd hearing ).

 

He originally made an order for the original documents to be brought to court.

e.g.

The agreement, the D.N. and the DoA

 

Needless to say Cabrot have never produced..

 

And I think that under CPR rules,

 

" where a case centres on a written agreement, then that agreement should be available at the hearing"

 

I'm still looking for the exact rule.

 

s.f.

Edited June 7, 2010 by sir fussalot

[Hadituptohere]

CPR Practice direction 16 para 7.3

 

7.3

 

Where a claim is based upon a written agreement:

 

(1) a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing,

 

There

 

Hadituptohere

[sir fussalot]

Hadit

 

The very one

 

That' saved an hour or two...

 

 

 

 

 

 

s.f.

[Tonster]

I guess you could respectfully point him to the law regarding Wilson and respectfully ask for him to re-consider the point???

[sir fussalot]

Hiya All,

 

Tonster, yes I thought is it possible to write to the D.J. pointing this out and supplying the "Quote" of Wilson.

 

Providing I also wrote to Cabrots with a copy of the letter.?

 

as this seems to be an "Error in Law".

 

On the other hand,, I don't want to upset him before I have to :-|

 

 

s.f.

[Tonster]

I am not sure of the procedure for ensuring this gets looked at again but I guess one of the more knowledgable caggers could help, but clearly the fact that the agreement is unenforceable means the rest of the arguments should be academic as it fails on this point immediately and the DJ however it happens needs to be reminded of the case law backing this up.

[sir fussalot]

Hiya All,

 

I need some Help...

 

I have put new witness evidence in as directed by the D.J.

 

But, I have not Quoted the actual regulation and section numbers etc.

 

Would it be advisable to supply these so that The D.J can look them up more quickley to see my point.

 

AND:, as he has told me in NO Uncertain Terms that he would NOT look at the validity of the Agreement again. ( subject to Cabrot supplying the correct T&C's,, which by the way, they haven't ..)......

 

How could I get him to look at Wilson. ( I am assuming that Wilson still has "superiority", over the, " Manchester case", as the D.J. frequently refered to .)

 

ALSO:, if, I engaged a solicitor to "speak for me", would I get his costs to me back, if I won ?

 

 

sir Fuss.

[patrickq1]

financialfraudsternews.com - Cabot Financial Involved in Data Deception?

[patrickq1]

als involved is vanquis bank hope this helps fussy lol

[patrickq1]

you can now copy from papers about the antics of crapbot and pass this to the judge he will have to respond favourably or else lol

[sir fussalot]

Patrickq.,....

 

At last! What EVERYONE on this site knew....... Finally about to be publicised... to the wider GOOD.

 

This can only help..

 

Cheers,

fussey

[patrickq1]

said it all along they were manipulating data for the benefit of themselves and hoodwinking judges into beleiving them to be squeeky clean,now you can see them and hopefully the judge will in a different light...good luck mate show this the judge and ask for him to bring back all your data for evaluation on the basis as you have always argued that it is stained and tantamount to fraudulent practices ..or something like that ,also point out the wilson case as you have asked put the case in full transcript for the judge and ,if he refuses to read this document (wilson) ask him to clarify his reasons why as it goes to the heart of your case you beleive

[patrickq1]

Justice has to be seen to be done. Without clear reasons from the court as to the decision it reached, a party is entitled to have reheard issues it raised on an earlier application but which there is no evidence the court considered.

In Vaidya v Wijaywardhana, the defendant obtained a costs order against the claimant and sought to enforce it by way of a statutory demand. The claimant applied to set the statutory demand aside on the basis he had a substantial counterclaim against the defendant. The application, which was dealt with on paper, was dismissed. The defendant then issued a bankruptcy petition. The claimant opposed it, again on the basis that he had a counterclaim. The County Court made the claimant bankrupt. It took no account of the counterclaim on the basis it had already been dealt with at the application to set the statutory demand aside which had been dismissed. The claimant then applied to annul the bankruptcy, again relying on his counterclaim. The County Court again refused the application on the basis that the claimant had put his alleged counterclaim forward when applying to set aside the statutory demand and the court must have taken that counterclaim into account when dismissing his original application. The claimant appealed again.

This time, the appeal was allowed. The High Court held that the counterclaim should have been considered. The application to set aside the statutory demand had been dealt with on paper and no reason for the decision was given. It was not clear that the counterclaim had been properly considered and the court held that the claimant was therefore entitled to have the argument on it heard at a subsequent hearing. The subsequent courts had been wrong to assume that the earlier court had disposed of the argument on the counterclaim without there being a clear record that it had done so.

Things to consider

The court should always given reasons as to why it reaches the decision it does on any application. Where the application is on paper, it is essential that it does so. Although the court has a wide discretion to annul a bankruptcy order, it should not rehear an argument previously raised by the applicant and dealt with by the court. It was the lack of evidence that the counterclaim had been dealt with by the court that gave the persistent claimant here a second bite at the cherry.

[sir fussalot]

Patrickq,

 

Thank you for that, I can see there must have been a lot of hard work

in your reply.. very much appreciated.

 

That was going to be my "tack".

 

Politely explain that he must take into consideration that Cabrot have now furnished 3 lots of T&C's.

 

None of which were attached to the application form.

 

Contrary to the Wilson descision. Should he then dismiss my argument, to please put on record why the Wilson case was not accepted.

 

I wonder if I had showed the wrong document, the D.J. would have said

"next time you come, see where you went wrong and bring the proper doc's."?

Thanks.

 

fussey

 

 

[patrickq1]

lol yes it does make you wonder if you showed the correct documents but like a lot of us we seem to get amnesia in front of a judge and forget what we where going to say or what we had just said lol dont worry fussy still watching your thread...next time round they will input a barristor most likely and threaten you with more costs....dont be bluffed with this see what the judge makes of their noughties ..

patrickq1

[sir fussalot]

Patrickq......

 

A BARRISTOR.?.................. :eek:

 

 

 

 

 

fussey

[sir fussalot]

Bye The Bye...............

 

Does anybody know where I can get to see a copy of.;

 

.Goode Consumer Credit Law and Practise ( issue 30 ? )

 

Some excerpts have been quoted by Cabrots with poor quality photo copies.

 

I fear they may have "cherry picked" the parts they need.

 

My local county reference library does not have it.

 

At about £980 a copy I can see why..........

 

fuss

[SHERLOCK]

Subbing, shape of things to come me thinks!!

 

I keep requesting stay coz Monument, then Barclaycard have not sent me ALL documentation under DPA....just sent Barclaycard 'Letter Before Action'.

 

Was looking at bringing them into claim as Cabot's client.

 

It's a minefield innit?

 

SHERLOCK

[sir fussalot]

Hiya All,

 

Just a quick thought

 

As Cabrot have previously quoted case law on Law of Contract.

 

Can the APPLICATION FORM be defined as "an offer to treat".

 

Then, as they sent the card, it would be "assumed" that they accepted

 

BUT, without prior T&C's being discussed ?

 

I have read somewhere on their conditions that "English Law" will prevail..

 

" DISCUSS "

 

fussey

[alangee]

Wrote to Morgan outlining the fact that the prescribed terms in the T&C's they supplied were not the same as in my OH's, sending a redacted copy of her first statement to prove it, and offering them the chance to drop the claim.

 

They have replied with the following CPR18 request.

 

Copy of the credit agreement

Copy of T&C's that were relevant to the application

Copies of all Providian CC statements

Copies of all correspondence from Cabot Financial (Europe) Ltd.

 

I thought they were supposed to be in possession of all of those prior to making a claim!!

 

 

 

I also thought the most hilarious was the fact they want copies of all documentation from themselves.

 

Alan

[Hadituptohere]

What????

 

That poor....