Court Case SSAA 1992

[Kouros]

The DWP prepared a case for income support fraud under the Social Security Administration Act 1992 for £2700 approx.

The allegation is some three and a half years old.

I turned up for the court case but the DWP did not.

 

The case was dismissed by the magistrate.

 

The DWP have brought the case again but of course have not mentioned that the case has been dismissed.

I have been asked to appear at the local magistrate again to either plead guilty or not guilty and then I imagine back to the same court some fifteen miles away as before.

 

Any thoughts on this before I attend the local magistrate in about two weeks.

I was a full time carer for my father in my home and the allegation is I had too much in savings to receive income support.

[scousegeezer]

Kouros,

I imagine that they have sent you a summons for the appearance.

Do you have the papers from the original case. I would appear in person on the date and submit to the court that the case should again be dismissed. Show the court the papers from the previous case and advise them that the case was dismissed on the previous occasion.

 

Good luck. - cheers - Scousegeezer

[Kouros]

Scousegeezer,

My worry is that magistrates do what the lawyer representing the DWP tells them to do and I cannot afford legal representation.

It is not much fun worrying about this matter again and of course I want the names of those who are taking this course of action but they are anonymous.

I really would like to get back to looking for a job which will not be easy after five years of caring for my dependant father and also my school aged daughters as a single father.

As things stand today I am not in receipt of any state benefits except child benefit and I do not have a job so all those nice employees of the state with their income well larger than my own really impress me, not!

[scousegeezer]

Kouros,

I understand your sentiment, but thew above advice still stands. Magistrates dont just do what solicitors want, they have a clerk to guide them. If you put your reason to the court for having the case dismissed ( as it was the first time); the clerk will advise the bench. Maybe someone else will come along and give some different advice - but as it stands , to me this is two bites of the cherry and is not allowed.

 

Cheers - Scousegeezer

[scousegeezer]

Kouros,

Forgot to say. It is not as if the case was adjourned - sini die or otherwise - it was DISMISSED. If it had been adjourned then the DWP could re-instate the case -- but AGAIN , it wasnt - it WAS dismissed.

 

Cheers - Scousegeezer

[FitzWilliam]

My worry is that magistrates do what the lawyer representing the DWP tells them to do and I cannot afford legal representation ...

 

I really would like to get back to looking for a job which will not be easy after five years of caring for my dependant father and also my school aged daughters as a single father. ... I am not in receipt of any state benefits except child benefit and I do not have a job ...

 

If you are unemployed, a carer, getting child benefit and cannot afford a lawyer you should be eligible for legal aid.

 

My advice is to get a legal aid solicitor as soon as possible. Your CAB will probably have a list of local solicitors, and they may have a volunteer solicitor who comes in who could give you free advice as well.

 

Yes, definitely show your solicitor the papers from the previous case as Scouse suggests. I do not know enough about the law to give a definitive answer as to the significance of the previous dismissal but I think it will put you in a very strong position.

 

If for any reason you do not have the previous papers then give your solicitor details of where and when the case was heard.

 

The magistrates will not follow instructions from the DWP lawyers. They are guided by the clerk of the court in their decision making. The clerk is legally trained.

 

Anyway, getting a solicitor is the important thing. He will be able to advise you best, and I hope he will be able to get the case thrown out.

 

Let us know what happens. Good luck.

[scousegeezer]

Kouros,

When is the case listed for.

Scousegeezer

[Kouros]

Fitz, Former carer, I replaced my mother who died of a heart attack when she was refused respite. I nearly had a nervous breakdown four or so years later. My father (double incontinent paraplegic) was then taken into council care on health grounds (his mine my daughters).

I have more than 16k of savings which means no free legal aid ?

The dismissal is known to the court staff.

 

Scousegeezer,

The actual hearing is Thursday 22nd October 2009 11.00 am

That *may* lead to the court case later but since one of my witnesses is a school aged girl cannot see them getting me in court before 21-Dec-09

( being next school holiday )

[FitzWilliam]

I have more than 16k of savings which means no free legal aid ?

 

Not sure, but the Legal Services Commission should have the answer. Phone number on link:

 

LSC Website : Can I get legal aid?

 

Tell them all your circumstances of unemployment etc.

 

If you're not entitled to legal aid then try at the CAB to see if you can get a free 15-minute session with a volunteer solicitor. We've got one locally who is very good.

 

Failing that at least take a consultation with a local solicitor, maybe £50 to £90 or sometimes free.

 

But definitely see a solicitor.

[Kouros]

Fitz, It does seem I pass the legal aid test based on my low annual income. I guess I shall go along to the CAB first.

I am not really happy about using the system to deal with the system.

My divorce took years and I really did not like my life being in the hands of others but I figure I have no choice.

The whole thing strikes me as a waste of money.

[Shoelover]

Did the original bench say why it was dismissed? Was it just becuase the DWP didn't attend? Have you been given a reason for their non attendance?

[FitzWilliam]

Fitz, It does seem I pass the legal aid test based on my low annual income. I guess I shall go along to the CAB first.

 

Good. The CAB list of local solicitors will indicate which do legal aid.

 

Make sure you're well prepared for the solicitor's meeting with any paperwork from the last case and a clear outline of your circumstances. You won't get much time with the solicitor so make good use of it.

 

I recently helped a friend put together his defence in a magistrates' court and I know the importance of good preparation and good communication with lawyers. (I guess we got it right. Result: acquittal.)

 

The first thing is to establish whether you can get the case thrown out on the basis of the previous case dismissal. If not, then the big decision will be to decide your plea with the solicitor.

 

Let us know what happens and good luck in court.

[postggj]

ime thinking on double jeopardy on this one

 

i know the law was changed on this in murder cases but not this

 

you cant be tried for the same offence twice

[Shoelover]

If the facts havn't been heard, then the OP hasn't been tried....

[postggj]

good point

 

no verdict

[FitzWilliam]

Yes, I've just looked into this.

 

The thing that will determine whether this case can be brought back to court will be whether it was dismissed 'with prejudice' (i.e. the case cannot be brought again) or 'without prejudice' (i.e. it can be brought again).

 

The previous court papers should indicate which applies. It's almost certainly going to be 'without prejudice' unless the DWP have made a serious mistake.

 

Probably too much to hope for that ...

[Kouros]

No magic phrase was used back in July.

I said "If I had failed to attend I could have been found guilty in my absence so surely the opposite is true"

The magistrate agreed with that and said case dismissed.

Neil Bateman has produced a paper for SSAA92 cases which I will be showing the solicitor on Monday at 09.00am

 

If double jeopardy does not apply (Criminal Justice Act is aimed at rape and murder) as outlined in Magna Carta then I would like to know why not.

 

The sickening aspect about this is the number of DWP employees involved along with me getting rightful legal aid.

What are we doing? going after a full time carer of an old man who also had two dependant children at the time. It is obvious that if Income Support was overpaid then Child Tax Credit was underpaid. This is the pathetic Fraims computer system being operated by brain dead muppets.

I have DWP paperwork that clearly states

Income Support paid to you

during the period you are due Carer's Allowance arrears

(You do not owe this money - it has already been deducted from your Carer's Allowance arrears)

 

It was a mistake by the DWP to record the benefit as IS when it should have been CA and by the time I received the correction paperwork Fraims had entered the world of the computer says "No"

[FitzWilliam]

Neil Bateman has produced a paper for SSAA92 cases which I will be showing the solicitor on Monday at 09.00am

 

If double jeopardy does not apply (Criminal Justice Act is aimed at rape and murder) as outlined in Magna Carta then I would like to know why not ...

 

It was a mistake by the DWP to record the benefit as IS when it should have been CA and by the time I received the correction paperwork Fraims had entered the world of the computer says "No"

 

Good, it sounds like you're well on top of things. You are right to be doing your own legal research to get things off to a good start for the solicitor.

 

I think that double jeopardy does not apply because your case was dismissed rather than ending in an acquittal. There was no actual trial so it can be brought back to court.

 

But the solicitor will be able to give the definitive answer.

[Kouros]

"....ending in an acquittal. There was no actual trial so it can be brought back to court.

But the solicitor will be able to give the definitive answer."

Yeah Fitz.

 

I self represented during my divorce and 'won' residency so the whole court deal does not bother me and I know it is *not* what the solicitor does but what I do.

The DWP will know shame after all where was the state when I had three people dependant on me. From 99 to 02 ( four years ) I pumped over £100k in income and corporation tax to the state so I am really hacked off.

[Shoelover]

It'll be down to what the law says, the facts of the matter and how the bench see it on the day. Even if you go unrepresented on the day, take some advice first.

[Kouros]

I was impressed with the couple in the daily mail today. All sorts of stuff to the tune of £50k and they got to pay £2 a week ....

Now I have gone down the solicitor route it is all the way. I hope the dwp lawyer can be talked out of it in two weeks. If not I am where i thought i was in july. I would rather expect a serious apology from the dwp for mucking me around with the stress of the delay. It really does make job hunting beyond what i can cope with, what with not having worked for half a decade

[FitzWilliam]

My experience of the law is that good preparation and communication are extremely important. And it's often a one shot that you've got to get right.

 

I've had several dealings with solicitors in recent years in conveyancing, defending an accusation against me of criminality, and assisting a friend going to court.

 

I've always listened to solicitors' advice but also issued my own instructions. Above all, I've trusted my own judgement.

 

I followed my conveyancing solicitor's advice on all points and made sure he had all the requisite documents, which I itemised for him. He seemed to know what he was doing.

 

I issued instructions to my criminal solicitor to pass evidence supporting my innocence to the police, which I had gathered myself. He wouldn't have done that if I hadn't told him.

 

I disagreed with the solicitor who advised that my friend plead guilty to a lesser charge to avoid going to court. I chivvied him to request documents relevant to the case which he was unaware of, and I prepared exhibits for my friend.

 

My friend had little face time with his barrister but we compensated by setting up email communication with him to pool ideas and share observations about the evidence. The barrister ended up presenting a fantastic defence.

 

The net result of all the good preparation was that two house conveyancings went without hitch, I was never charged with the criminal offence, and my friend was acquitted.

 

It is not without reason that people say you have to 'fight' for justice.

 

* * *

 

You may be in a position to bring a civil action against the DWP one day if they are at fault. But for now you have a case to defend. My advice is to use every resource at your disposal, fight every corner, and trust your own judgement in issuing instructions.

 

I hope it goes well. I know how horrible it is to be on the back foot and to have to defend yourself.

[Shoelover]

You may be in a position to bring a civil action against the DWP one day if they are at fault. But for now you have a case to defend.

Sound advice.

[Kouros]

As I have savings it appears I cannot get legal aid.

There is no free advice available and of course my fifteen minutes went on filling the forms before the savings question.

[FitzWilliam]

Try the CAB to see if they have a volunteer solicitor who could see you for 15 minutes.

 

Better perhaps is to try the Community Legal Advice Service (Ty Arian Ltd) on 0845 456 6824 for specialist benefits advice. They might give an opinion of the evidence you describe in posting 17 and the merits of the case.

 

I phoned these people a few weeks ago in relation to a benefits problem my friend had. They give advice under the Legal Help and Help at Court Scheme, and we spoke in detail for 24 minutes.

 

You might disbar yourself from receiving advice if you tell them you have £16k in savings. What you tell them, of course, is up to you. Since advice is given on the phone you are not required to give extensive proofs of identification and savings.

 

I found them helpful and informative. As well as answering queries direct on the phone they sometimes also make telephone appointments with specialist advisors.

 

Failing all else, I at least recommend paying for a half-hour consultation with a local solicitor.