prushton vs Abbey

[prushton]

Hi Lula , I dont believe them either if you take into account their description of their microfiche records system and how archaic it sounds do they really expect you to believe them when they tell you that they have located your records stored on microfiche and destroyed any older than 6 yrs yeah right !!!!!!!!!

 

Its just another tactic to frustrate people, hopefully the judge will put them to strict proof that they have destroyed them.

 

Have you noticed that you used to be able to get 3-4 yrs worth of statements online but suddenly they have now removed this feature from their online banking web sites. Now you can only access 2 months.

[Glenn UK]

FWIW

 

If they haven't given you the info in writing it means diddly squat and is not something which you should trouble yourself with, its almost certainly bovine excrement.

 

I am aware of the affidavit BF has in respect of the age of Abbeys records and can confirm that there is a CAG member who has said Abbey have some data (or did when they worked there) dating back to 1926.

 

In addition to this Abbey will have to show how they extracted your data from the fiche to destroy it or alternatively that the fiche for period in question only contained your data.

 

If you read what they put in their defence you will know that each piece of film holds data for a number of accounts.

 

If you find anything which actually confirms how long a bank must hold data for you will be luckier than me.

 

As far as i can tell there is very little that makes them hold data for a min or maximum period and i have seen nothing published on the site which changes that view. Whilst inland revenue or VAT reasons are often quoted I haven't found a bit of legislation that supports a particular period. In fact the IR told me they now only ask for people to keep three years worth of data. Again this was verbal and the provider couldn't supply the info about where this came from.

 

don't worry about Abbeys verbal claims, it would have been good to combine the claim for data and your charges with a statement that you will amend your claim when the data becomes available.

 

Since you haven't cest la vie.

 

Re the DPA non-compliance have you sent a copy of the ICOs letter to the defendant asking them if their still adamant that their fiche is not relevant?

 

Personally i would and of course you must copy the court in on such correspondence.

 

JMHO

 

Glenn

[prushton]

Hi ,

 

I agree with you, I think that they are lying and as such I filed a claim against them for non- compliance the thought was that we would have ended up in court before the money claim was filed and then I could have amended it. The worst comes to the worst should it turn out they havent destroyed the statements then I will bring a fresh claim against them for the remaining 4 yrs and 7 mths. I should only have to file the claim in court and not have to request payment etc as my original request was for 6 yrs of statements, the 4 yrs 7mths are liked to the same claim.

 

 

 

I have asked the judge to put the defence to strict proof they destroyed my statements and prove it with documentry evidence. I have made a request to the ICO under the freedom of information act for a copy of the letter that they sent the Abbey requiring them to comply with my request for statements.I will of course include this in the documents i intend to rely on in court.

 

[jodyperry]

Hi

 

i am having the same trouble with abbey not sending me the statements i have recieved 14 months. my problem is i would like to send a prelim letter for estimated charges but wonder if theres any way i can still cover contractual inerest in this and how i would work out my 8% interest. any help would be appreciated

[prushton]

Latest update to my claim against the Abbey for non-compliance:

 

The judge wrote to the Abbey on the 12th December and made an order that they respond to the courts letter dated 24th November (asking how many witnesses they intend to call ) by 4pm on December 22nd. I rang the court today (2nd January) and the Abbey have not responded to the judges order ( now im no expert but I reckon thats going to pee the judge off and hopefully he will start to get a little tougher with the Abbey)

 

I have also, been busy with the information commissioners offfice and as the Abbey still have not sent me my full statements ( They say they have destroyed them - Yeah !!! right.) I decided to send the information commissioners office a request under the freedom of information act for a copy of thier letter sent to the Abbey requiring them to comply with my DPA request. I now have a copy of that letter to go in my court bundle for the judge to see when I get the Abbey into court over the remaing 4yrs and 7 mths of statements that are outstanding.

 

Finally regarding the claim for the 13mths of statements I do actually have - well during the same telephone call today I asked how the claim was progressing and was told that the files were sent upstairs to the judge on the 29th December and hopefully in the next week he will make a date in his diary for my day in court with the Abbey. All this delay has achieved for the Abbey is a bigger claim as the original claim was for £910.13 but with mail costs and stationery costs, and phone calls the claim currently stands at £1024.22.A revised schedule of charges has of course been filed at the court and a copy been sent to the defence.

[prushton]

Received court notification of hearing today for the recovery of 13mths of charges, currently stands at £1,039.32. Date is 3 April 2007 at 11.30 ( I am fully prepared for the court) At last we are getting closer now. I am still waiting for court date for non- compliance to my request for statements, should hear soon.

[prushton]

Recieved another court letter today informing me of a court date for my case against the Abbey for the outstanding 4 yrs and 7 mths of statements they say they have destroyed. The court date is Tues 2oth March at 10.30 at Plymouth county court and one hour has been allocated. For some reason this judge likes working tues, my other claim is on tues 3rd April at11.30 oh ! nearly forgot they are both with district judge moon.

[prushton]

I have today, sent the documents I intend to rely on in court to the Abbey ( approximately half the thickness of a telephone directory - wasnt loking forward to paying the special delivery costs on that, but it turned out to be £5.10 so not too bad)

 

I also sent the judge in the case, District Judge Moon at Plymouth County Court a letter asking he write to the defendants and require them to include in the document exchange, detailed acounting information showing thier true costs and how the charges were structured and what elements they contained.

 

I had included this request in my submitted N1 claim form so hopefully this shouldnt cost anything( but if it does then c,est la vie, I can add it to the claim)

 

My documents were sent well in advance of the date required by the Judge, my reasoning behind this was I originally was going to send them right on the deadline, but decided that if they were presented with overwhelming evidence against thier defence that the charges were"Fair and proportionate" ( I have spent a lot of time preparing for court well in advance of my court date,and I am now in a position to go to court tomorrow if necessary. Its so important to be prepared for court early)

 

Then having looked at how well prepared I am, they will at least make an offer, I am however not holding my breath. I am more than prepared to face them in court.

[prushton]

Just a quick question, regarding the judges notification of a court date and his directions. The judge,s directions say witness statements must be included in the documents filed and served.

 

I am not calling any witnesses in my claim, do I need to do anything about the witness statement element? - didnt know if I had to make a witness statement?

[prushton]

Hi Karne, no just each party shall deliver to every other party and to the court, office copies of all documents (including any experts report) on which he intends to rely on at the hearing, no later than 14 days before the hearing. the original documents shall be brought to the hearing. Witness statements must be included in the document filed and served.

 

I have messed up though as I didnt include my witness statement when I sent my documents in the document exchange, I sent everything else but not a witness statement, do you think it would be possible to write to the Abbey and include a witness statement, stating I had forgotten to include this in the documents sent to them for exchange and include the claim number? They have not yet sent me thier documents.

[prushton]

Hi Karne , thanks for your reply. The court date is 3rd of April so I have to send the documents 14 days before that so by 20th march. I am in the process of completing my witness statement and have looked at the witness statement rules link and wondered what section 17.2 (4) meant ? as i note there is mention of it at the bottom of the draft witnes statement from the CAG. see below statement of truth.

 

 

 

 

17.2 At the top right hand corner of the first page there should be clearly written:

(1)the party on whose behalf it is made,

(2)the initials and surname of the witness,

(3)the number of the statement in relation to that witness,

(4)the identifying initials and number of each exhibit referred to, and

(5)the date the statement was made.

 

Statement of Truth

I believe the facts stated within this Witness Statement to be true and exhibit Exhibits [your initials 1] comprising of xx pages.

 

 

[prushton]

Hi Karne , I sent you a PM with my witness statement, can you take a look at it and see if its ok. thanks

[prushton]

Just an update, just waiting for the court date to arrive, I still havent heard anything from the Abbey reference settlement, but I am expecting them to take it to the wire so no worries.

[Guest louis wu]

Interesting thread prushton.

 

I have been thinking about the charges you incurred pre 2000.

 

Do you have any idea the extent of the charges? This may be a pointless exercise, and if so forgive me, but have you considered estimating the charges and claiming this estimated amount. If you could entwine this claim with forcing them to reveal the actual costs involved to themselves they may consider making you an offer ?

 

 

Just a thought

[prushton]

Hi , I originally submitted an estimated claim for the years prior to 2000. The only problem with estimated claims is the burden of proof falls on the claiment , so I would have found it difficult to prove the charges that I had no information about.

 

I therefore decided to claim for the 13mths of charges I could prove, then force the Abbey into court to provide the 4yrs and 9mths of missing statement charges by bringing a claim against them for non- compliance to my Data request.

 

The thought was by submitting the claim for non-compliance first, I hopefully would have got them into court, recovered the missing statements and having already submitted a claim for the 13mths of charges, subsequently amended it to include any new charges discovered in the non- disclosure claim.

[prushton]

Just a quick update reference my claim against Abbey for statements.

 

I am due in court on Tues 20th March 10.30 to force the Abbey to give me my missing statements they say they have destroyed, They have failed to meet the deadline for the document exchange, I of course had mine in on the 12th of Febuary ( loads of time).

 

I have been away on holiday for 2wks and got back today still no document exchange so I have sent the district judge in the case a non disclosure letter as per CAG template, I think given the short space of time to the hearing he may do one of the following:

 

1) Strike out the defence as per Civil Proceedure rules 3.4(2)©

 

2) move the court date to allow the Abbey time to exchange documents

 

3) order that they supply the documents by a set date and re- schedule the case.

 

 

Personally, I hope he geos for option 1- its about time the Abbey is punished for missing deadlines and abusing court time.

[Lula]

Hi prushton, I am going to be in a similar position, I spoke to the Information Commissioners office a little while ago and she said to me that if Abbey has destroyed the information then they have to provide Certificates of Destruction - i have amended the SAR to reflect this and am considering sending it or just shoving the claim right in, it is from 1995 to 1/1/2000.

 

I will be watching this very carefully, I presume, even if they settle your claim, you can still force them into court to produce the certificates of destruction, personally, I think that this is what I would do, as it has implications for other claims currently ongoing.

 

good luck though, i hope that they settle and produce the said statements, because as I have said ad nauseum, so my family would say, they cannot possibly be destroying information in this day and age of easy data storage, plus, in the case of suspected terrorists, they need a paper trail.

 

Anyway, another thing to look for is if they actually produce these certificates, they should all be dated precisely 6 years after the year that they have destroyed, just one certificate covering all of your information dated 2006/7 is not acceptable as it proves that they are destroying evidence and realise that they have no answer to the statue of limitations argument so are just trying to limit their losses.

 

I'll get of me soap box now, I'm getting a nose bleed

[Lula]

Karne, what are the reading/lincoln orders?

[Lula]

oh yes, prushtion, go read my thread Lula v Abbey (3) there is another member there who has received statements earlier that you are asking and that was only last year, they have also indicated that they would be willing to sign an affidavit and probably let a copy of the said statements go, to show the court that abbey are less than truthful

[Lula]

good luck tomorrow Prush!!

[Lula]

oo anyone know what time the case is?

 

oh scratch that - it is 10.30 - soo excited!!

[srfrench]

C'mon PrushyPoos what's the result?

[Lula]

C'mon PrushyPoos what's the result?

 

ooo you b*gger, I was all excited then !!!

[srfrench]

Still nothing............ is he/she alive...... HeeeeLLllllllllooooooOOOoooooooo?

[Lula]

they are busy putting all the figures from their miraculously undestroyed microfiche records