Not Certified & Seizure - What does it all mean?

[Cobbs]

Hi, Im really in need of some advise, as I am scared and confused!

 

A couple of months ago, I got a letter from the council/court, asking me to fill out a 'Deduction of earnings' form to pay my council tax. I filled it out and have been making payments dirrect from my salary for the past 2 months.

 

Last week Monday, I got a letter THROUGH THE POST (post marked 18th Sept. - took a while for me to finally get it), a 'Final Notice' stating that they were gonna be "... calling from next week to remove you goods and chattels". As soon as I got the letter, I gave them a call to advise them that I alreayd have a 'deductions of earnings' in place. The woman then advise me to ignore the letter.

 

Roll on to Monday this week... I come home to find an envelope, and enclosed is a 'Notice of Attendance' and a 'Notice of Distress and Inventory'. They had put my car on there (although i dont know how they got the details, as neither me nor my car was home)!

 

 

They had a break down of the charges on there too (scribbled):

AMOUNT DUE For Council Tax £1206.52

(Statutory Charge) Levy Fee £60.00

(Statutory Charge) Walking Possession Fee £ -

(Statutory Charge) Attendance £262.50

TOTAL AMOUNT OUTSTANDING £1529.02

 

 

I called the bailiff up (who after checking on the courts website is un-certified), and explained that how could he out a seizure on my car, when 1. I already have a deduction of earnings for this, and 2. My car is on HP (which I have later found out that it isnt, and that I got a loan for it when I re-financed), and 3. Another bailiff company (Sheriffs Office for rent arrears) has already put a seizure on my car the previopus Friday?

He basically told me that my deduction of earnings is for the council tax arrears from Oct 08 to Apr 09, and that he was collecting from Apr 09 to Apr 10!!!

He told me that my car did not show up on the 'Hire Purchase index', so was therefore not HP.

He informed me that the SO had lifted their seizure because I was being evicted on the 6th! He knew who had the seizure and about me being evicted (how would he find that out?).

Anyway, I informed him that because I was moving on the 6th, and that he was collecting for CT 2009/2010, then surely I wasnt liable for the whole of the amount that he was trying to collect from me! He told me that I neeed to to sort that out with the council.

I called the council, who informed me that they could not close the account and give me a final bill until 5 days before I moved out of here. i called the bailiff and told him that. He said that he would be in contact with me Thurs (y'day) then. When I called the council, they told me that they could not close the account and give me a final bill because I didnt have a forwarding address to give them!!! So now the bailiff wants to collect the £1500 + amount from me!

 

 

Whilst I was out today (sorting out the CT & housing), he called here again, and posted through a 'Notice of Bailiffs Attendance'. He states that he is coming back tomorrow morning (today), to remove my car.

 

 

I really dont know what to do. I feel as though Im getting blows from all over the show. I am not disputing paying it. I just cant afford to pay it all in one go. Also, the council have over-charged me, so I dont even owe them that amount!!

 

 

Please could someone advise me on how I should handle this? I really cant have them take my car as I need it to get to and from work. I work a 50 mile round trip distance. I work long hours and am a single parent, who is soley responsible for 3 kids, so public transport really isnt an option. Im willing to sell my car and get something cheaper in order to pay this debt, but am I right in thinking that as long as they have the 'seizure'/'levy' on it, that I am unable to do so?

 

 

I am really confused, and would appreciate any and every bit of advice.

[lets fight bailiffs]

for a start if another bailiff has a levy on your car they can't take it (inform the company who already have the levy)

 

No the council can't send you a final bill but they can say the amount you owe untill the day you move, inform the council that if they continue to send the bailiffs for council tax for dates that you will not be there then you are going to your MP and the local gov ombudsmen.

 

when you next speak to the bailiff tell him what ever authority allows on my property has now been revoked and if you come on to my property again he will be reported to the police and treated as a tresspasser and be charged under the current tresspass law.

 

Speak to the council and ask them for a copy of the order if they tell you they dont have one then the bailiff works direct for the council and if this is the case then the tresspass law stands as there is no warrent.

 

also if this is the case then tell the council that you do want to pay but need time if they refuse to do this and they do have an order then get in touch with the isueing court and ask for a means test.

 

and there fees are also unjust(too high)

 

Hope that helps.

 

LFB

[Guest Happy Contrails]

on there too (scribbled):

AMOUNT DUE For Council Tax £1206.52

(Statutory Charge) Levy Fee £60.00

(Statutory Charge) Walking Possession Fee £ -

 

(Statutory Charge) Attendance £262.50

TOTAL AMOUNT OUTSTANDING £1529.02

I am really confused, and would appreciate any and every bit of advice.

 

 

The law says a bailiff can charge £24.50 to visit you and is making a false representation to defraud you of money - a criminal offence under the Fruad Act. See this post to clear up the bailiffs fees. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs-sheriff-officers/223479-lewes-council-chandlers-bailiffs.html#post2473534

[Cobbs]

for a start if another bailiff has a levy on your car they can't take it (inform the company who already have the levy)

 

He told me that the Sheriffs Office have lifted their seizure, due to me being evicted on the 6th. He knew all the details without me telling him. I didnt tell him who had the seizure or what it is for. He had all that information already! Do you know how he would know that? Also, how would I be able to verify if it is true?

The Sherriffs office were due to come back on monday to remove the car and my property for sale at public auction last Monday, but I have not seen or heard from them. The same day they were due to come, this new bailiff from Chandlers came and put a seizure on my car.

No the council can't send you a final bill but they can say the amount you owe untill the day you move, inform the council that if they continue to send the bailiffs for council tax for dates that you will not be there then you are going to your MP and the local gov ombudsmen.

I didnt mean a final bill... I meant, that they are not willing to close my account with them for this address until I have a forwarding address to give them. I have proof that I have to leave on the 6th (the court eviction letter). I will be homeless, and they know that too because I have filed an application with the housing/homeless persons unit.

when you next speak to the bailiff tell him what ever authority allows on my property has now been revoked and if you come on to my property again he will be reported to the police and treated as a tresspasser and be charged under the current tresspass law.

He has never entered my house, nor has he ever passed through my locked gate (that i know of). I have never ever even seen this bailiff. Ive only ever had communication with him via the phone!

and there fees are also unjust(too high)

Do you know how much approximately I should be paying in fees?

He says that he has visited my house twice, but yet he did not leave a letter or anything to say that he has been. the first I knew that they had tried to contact me is when i got a letter via Royal mail, and I had contacted them to tell them that I had the 'Deductions of Earnings', and the woman told me not to worry about it, so I didnt!

 

Thank you so much for you advice. It is very much appreciated!

[Cobbs]

The law says a bailiff can charge £24.50 to visit you and is making a false representation to defraud you of money - a criminal offence under the Fruad Act. See this post to clear up the bailiffs fees. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs-sheriff-officers/223479-lewes-council-chandlers-bailiffs.html#post2473534

 

Thank you so much. The link helped me with my confusion!!

 

One question though... Because the bailiff in question is not certificated, which makes the 'Levy' on my car invalid, does that mean that it is automatically removed?

 

Why I am asking this, is because there was supposed to be a 'levy' on the car, Im unable to sell it. If it is invalid, I want to get rid of it ASAP, buy something cheaper and register it under someone elses name so that the bailiffs can take their eyes off the car and will accept payment arrangements.

 

Any advice is very much appreciated!

[hallowitch]

(Sheriffs Office for rent arrears)

 

are you in Scotland thing work a bit different their I'm not sure how different but will try get some look in on this

[Guest Happy Contrails]

A bailiff trading without a certificate makes no difference to the debtor in council tax arrears cases.

 

The certificate tells the council the bailiff has a bond or insurance policy of £10,000 that has been inspected by the county court. It is to protect public money belonging to the council if the bailiff absconds with it after collecting it from a debtor.

[Cobbs]

(Sheriffs Office for rent arrears)

 

are you in Scotland thing work a bit different their I'm not sure how different but will try get some look in on this

 

No, I am in London. The High Court apparently sent the Bailiffs from the Sherriffs to collect on rent arrears of £10,100. They are trying to collect £13,567 from me in total (inclusive of fees)!

 

The court gave me 2 weeks to pay the £10,100, even though I gave them a copy of the incoming and expenditure that the CCCS (debt management) gave me, showing that every month I go into debt by £1200!!

[Cobbs]

A bailiff trading without a certificate makes no difference to the debtor in council tax arrears cases.

 

The certificate tells the council the bailiff has a bond or insurance policy of £10,000 that has been inspected by the county court. It is to protect public money belonging to the council if the bailiff absconds with it after collecting it from a debtor.

Im confused again!!! Does that mean that my goods are still 'levied' then? When does this 'levy' get lifted?

[Guest Happy Contrails]

You original post says council tax, now its rent and High Court,

 

There are very different rules for bailiffs collecting council tax, High Court action and unapid rent.

 

Read the documents, what is this debt for? and what is the name of the court?

[Cobbs]

You original post says council tax, now its rent and High Court,

 

There are very different rules for bailiffs collecting council tax, High Court action and unapid rent.

 

Read the documents, what is this debt for? and what is the name of the court?

 

This query is regarding Waltham Forest council getting Chandlers Bailiffs to collect council tax for year 2009/2010.

 

Im sorry for any confusion. Its just that Hallowitch, was asking whether I was in Scotland due to the mention of the Sheriffs department, who were the original bailiffs who seized the car for rent arrears, so i replied to that query.

 

My apologises for the confusion.

[Guest Happy Contrails]

The law doent say a bailiff has to hold a certificate, but a council will most likely require a contractor collecting unpaid council tax to have a security before being entrusted with handling public money. A bailiff can only have a certificate if he has such a policy or other surety of £10,000 or amount set by the hiring authority.

 

If anyone else knows otherwise, this means a levy is valid provided it has been applied properly. The laws does set clear rules on bailiffs fees (see my previous post) and reasonable costs for transporting goods in a van.

 

Section 45(7) of The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 says you can claim special damages for irregularities with a bailiffs levy. Disproportionately high fees, of fees for work not done by the bailiff can be interpreted as an irregularity. and you can sue the authority for your money back or the replacement cost of your goods if the bailiff has already taken them.

 

Some debtors use this legislation an opportunity to replace their car at the bailiffs expense because the law says you can recover all damages and nothing more. That includes the re-acquisition costs of the vehicle, its contents, unused road tax, tank of petrol etc. It also means, if no goods have been moved in a van then no fees (van fees etc) are lawfully due.

 

If you have signed a walkping possessions agreement (dont) then the law says you will have to pay a statutory fee of £10.

[postggj]

hi happy

 

bit concerned on your last post and i have sent a pm to tom tubby.

not doubting your post but it goes against all i know on bailiff law

 

the only bailiffs i know who do not need to be certificated are the high court enforcement officers

 

 

it would help if you can give a link that states a bailiff does not have to be certificated.

 

the certification is there to make sure a bailiff is a fit and proper person and is then answerable to the court who issued the certification

[Guest Happy Contrails]

it would help if you can give a link that states a bailiff does not have to be certificated.

 

the certification is there to make sure a bailiff is a fit and proper person and is then answerable to the court who issued the certification

 

I never give advice in PM, that way information can be challenged.

 

Heres the link: Nothing in the legilsation says a bailiff HAS to be certificated. The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 You might be thinking of parking tickets where bailiffs must be certificated by law.

[hallowitch]

taken from tomtubbys website

 

 

Facts about a Certificated Bailiff.

To collect the following debts, by law the bailiff has to be what is called a Certificated Bailiff :

• Council Tax,

• Business Rates (NNDR)

• Parking Charge Notices (PCN’s)

• Congestion Charging,

• Child Support Agency

• Inland Revenue

• Customs & Excise (VAT)

• Magistrate Court Fines ( See note)

[Guest Happy Contrails]

Except Section 78(7) of the Road Traffic Act 1991, quoting some supporting legislation might be a good idea.

[Cobbs]

taken from tomtubbys website

 

 

Facts about a Certificated Bailiff.

To collect the following debts, by law the bailiff has to be what is called a Certificated Bailiff :

• Council Tax,

• Business Rates (NNDR)

• Parking Charge Notices (PCN’s)

• Congestion Charging,

• Child Support Agency

• Inland Revenue

• Customs & Excise (VAT)

• Magistrate Court Fines ( See note)

 

According to the above quote, the bailiff HAS TO BE CERTIFICATED, right? If he isnt (which is the case of the bailiff who is dealing with the collection of the council tax that i owe), does that mean that the levy he has placed on my car is invalid?

 

Also, how and when is the levy lifted once the debt has been repaid? How will I know/find out that it has been levied?

[hallowitch]

phone this number to confirm that the baillif is not certificated

he must be certificated to Chandlers Bailiffs or self employed

 

 

Ministry of Justice Public Register of Bailiffs on 020 3334 6355

[Guest Happy Contrails]

Just because somebodys has published it on their website doesnt mean to say its fact.

 

All I know theres no legislation requiring a bailiff to be certificated when he is collecting council tax/CSA/TFL/fines and all the above. Only collecting unpaid parking tickets the law says the bailiff must be certificated. Try using an official source for your facts. Road Traffic Act 1991 (c. 40)

 

As for your levy, have you signed a walking possession agreement? if no then no fee is due. I dont know the background to your case but I do know its not good enough to list goods on a document and stuff it through your letter box. Bailiffs call that hit & run. The goods are still legally yours until you agree to give them up as collateral. I'm now going to suggest you get those bailiffs fees cleared up. The law says a council tax bailiffs visit fee is £24.50 - nothing else.

 

The Bailiff Company

Their Address 1

Their Address 2

Their Address 3

Postcode

 

BY POST AND BY EMAIL

 

DATE

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: [YOUR NAME + REF]: Your fees.

 

I write following visits by your bailiff however there appears to an irregularity with your fees and I am writing to ask you to provide me the following within seven (7) days:

 

1) The name of the court that issued the certificate for the bailiff in charge.

 

2) Written itemised breakdown of a) your fees, and b) the original debt.

 

3) The name and address of the organisation that instructed you

 

4) a) Truthfully confirm in writing your fees are lawful and comply with legislation or, b) refund me the unlawful fees plus reasonable compensation for being cheated by your bailiff with his fees by midday the seventh day from the date of this letter.

 

A bailiff or any other person who dishonestly charges for work that has not been done will be committing an arrestable offence under the Fraud Act 2006. Section 2 of the Act specifically describes a person dishonestly makes a false representation and intends, by making the representation, to make a gain for himself or another, or cause a loss to another, or expose another to a risk of loss therefore, if no satisfactory refund is made to me by 12.00 midday seven (7) days from the date of this letter I will automatically file a complaint to police under the 2006 Fraud Act and the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002. If you have charged VAT on unlawful fees then you may be reported for VAT fraud and your documents will be given in evidence.

 

Case law requires I recover unlawful bailiffs fees from your client that instructed you. If you fail to make the required refund within seven days I will automatically proceed by filing the claim at court.

 

This is a letter before action and is not a request to access any personal data as defined under the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

This letter is delivered by Royal Mail and deem it good service upon you by the ordinary course of post under Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978. It now is your responsibility and in your best interests this letter is handed to the relevant person within your organisation.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

YOUR NAME

Copied to: [NAME OF COUNCIL]

 

Send a copy of the letter to the council along with a copy of the bailiff’s fee document.

 

Head of Revenue

Borough Council

Address 1

Address 2

Address 3

Postcode

 

[DATE]

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: Council tax arreats and your bailiffs fees

 

Please find a copy of a letter before action that has been delivered by even post to your contractor who is claiming you have instructed to act.

 

You contractor is cheating with his fees and it is my intention to reclaim them by filing proceedings in the small claims track if they are not refunded in full within seven days.

 

As the council is liable for its agents it is my intention to name the council as the principle defendant, however, Court rules require me to give the council reasonable opportunity to settle the claim beforehand.

 

If you wish to settle the claim, please pay me the sum described in the enclosed letter at the above address within seven days from the date of this letter.

 

You may wish to launch an investigation or make your own enquiries; this does not delay the proceedings being filed at Court.

 

These documents are delivered by Royal Mail and deem it good service upon you by the ordinary course of post under Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978. It now is your responsibility and in your best interests they are handed to the relevant person within your organisation.

 

Yours Faithfully

 

 

[YOUR NAME]

 

Encs:

1 Copy of letter to bailiff

2. Copy of bailiff document showing his fees.

[Cobbs]

As for your levy, have you signed a walking possession agreement? if no then no fee is due.

No, I didnt sign anything. I havent ever even seen the bailiff.

I dont know the background to your case but I do know its not good enough to list goods on a document and stuff it through your letter box. Bailiffs call that hit & run.

This seems to be what they have done. When he listed my car, it wasnt even parked outside my house. Me and my car were out sorting out something. I hadnt even had a 1st or 2nd visit (to my knowledge), although the bailiff said that he had called before, yet he didnt leave a notice stating it!

The goods are still legally yours until you agree to give them up as collateral.

So what exactly is a levy/seizure?

I'm now going to suggest you get those bailiffs fees cleared up. The law says a council tax bailiffs visit fee is £24.50 - nothing else.

Im planning to definately send a letter to get the fees sorted out. Im also trying to get the actual amount that i owe sorted out as well. The council are asking the bailiff to collect council tax for ficial (sp?) year 2009/2010. I will be moving out on tuesday, so therefore my council tax for this property does not amount to the suggested amount that the bailiff is trying to collect. The council are trying to say that they cant amend it until I have a forwarding address, which I do not have right now!

Send a copy of the letter to the council along with a copy of the bailiff’s fee document.

Those fantastic templates seem to be what I would send if I have already made payment to the bailiffs. I havent done that yet, so do you know how I would change those templates to fit if I havent made payment yet. Im dubious about making the payment and it taking forever to get back what is owed to me, as we all know that they are quick to take the money, but not so forward in paying back overpayments/what they owe you!!

 

Thank you for your advice and help.

[Guest Happy Contrails]

A levy is the taking of property to secure a payment of money, it means the bailiff is claiming ownership of your car. A walking possession agreement means the bailiff is letting you keep the goods for a period of time to give you a further opportunity to pay.

 

If you havnt yet paid the money, just amend the templates to suit. Attempting to defraud if also an offence and magistrates are given the same sentencing guidelines for fraud.

 

If no bailiff has visited you then no bailiffs fees are due at all. To see the rulebook the council must follow to enforce unpaid council tax see: The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992

[tex001]

Sorry, but I do not know where the member Happy Contrails gets his information from but under the Distress for Rent Act 1988 regulation 12 a bailiff MUST be certificated to levy distress for council tax and if he is not then his levy is invalid! You can refer to both the above Act and also: The Council Tax Administration & Enforcement (Amendment) 1993. Si 773 amended by Si 295 0f 1998, Si 768 of 2003 and Si 3395 of 2006.