Clear Pay and Display signs ? Bristol

[matt spqr]

Hello..

Just joined the forum , so Hello , You guys helped me get off a private parking notice last year , so this is where i came for advice on what happened on Friday night in Bristol.

Arrived on St.Stephens road (off Baldwin street) about 6.30pm , friday 12/09.. read the signs on the pay and display parking area , wasn't 100% sure whether to pay or not , tried to put money in .. meter was blocking coins ! passer by told us - don't park there - the wardens come at 7 and you will get a ticket . Read through the sign another couple of times trying to make head or tail of it , we both decided the passer by was confused and we were ok to leave the car there because it was after 6pm on a friday night .

Well no prizes for guessing .. got back to the car at about 8pm and there is a ticket , along with almost every other car on that street (about 6 cars , which i have photos of ) ..

Personally i feel that the fact that parking is Prohibited on this street between 6pm and Midnight is not very clear at all from this sign , for one it assumes you identify and translate correctly the icon as meaning ' NO PARKING AT ALL '

What i am asking is if this is grounds for me to contest the Penalty Charge Notice (£70 or £35 if paid within.... ) or is there another route i should take ?

I honestly thought at the time that there was no reason not to park there - along with every other motorist and i suspect this occurs every friday (and saturday) night !!

 

Many thanks for your time and any help , Matt.

 

Edited September 13, 2009 by matt spqr

[Jamberson]

What you have photographed seems to be the info on the ticket machine. What did the road sign say? Do you have a pic of it?

[matt spqr]

Yes, this is a photo of the front of the pay and display machine.

 

I didnt see a road sign near where we were parked ! i will have to go back in the week and have a good look in the daylight !

[sailor sam]

Hi Matt,

 

Mmm, this does need a close examination study!

 

Having done so for around 15 minutes, it seems you are on a sticky wicket i'm sorry to say.

 

Although it is somewhat confusing, it does state that 'No Waiting' applies from 6pm to midnight on Fridays and Saturdays and midnight to 4am Sundays. It seems that even the meter is programmed not to accept payment during those periods.

 

Sorry mate, but I dont think you got a leg to stand on.

[matt spqr]

@sailor sam .. yeah, i agree .. what annoys me is the assumption that someone reading this will correctly translate the 'no waiting' symbol ! at the time i didnt even notice it .. it should clearly state NO PARKING in writing shouldnt it ?

 

edit : even the traffic warden who i spotted down the street , i caught up with them and had a chat , they agreed 'off the record' that it wasnt clear ! it is my opinion that they know every friday night this road is going to be full of parked cars !! ker-ching.

[sailor sam]

@sailor sam .. yeah, i agree .. what annoys me is the assumption that someone reading this will correctly translate the 'no waiting' symbol ! at the time i didnt even notice it .. it should clearly state NO PARKING in writing shouldnt it ?

 

edit : even the traffic warden who i spotted down the street , i caught up with them and had a chat , they agreed 'off the record' that it wasnt clear ! it is my opinion that they know every friday night this road is going to be full of parked cars !! ker-ching.

 

Yes and as I said, it needs too close examination before it makes sence. And yes, I agree that the 'No Waiting' bis should be more obvious. BUT, it is there so i'm not sure how far you would get by appealing it. You would have to use the argument of the sign being ambiguous. I think someone has already asked if there were any other signs so pics of them may help.

 

You would think that they have deliberately made the sign miss-leading to entrap people?

[green_and_mean]

If there is a yellow line and a yellow time plate with the waiting restriction on (which there is on Google streetview) you really have no one to blame apart from yourself. Even the machine says no waiting at the time you got the ticket, if you do not understand the symbol for no waiting which is in the highway code then that is down to you. The signage clearly states when you can and cannot park as far as I can see.

[Rooster-UK]

I am in complete agreement with G & M. The picture seems to be clear enough.

If you don't understand the meaning of a sign, then I think it would be prudent to make enquiries before parking there. It's better to be wise BEFORE the event than after.

 

Sorry if it's not what you wanted to hear, but I am giving you my opinion, based on the picture that you have provided.

 

Regards, Rooster.

[matt spqr]

@green and mean .. i agree totally with what you are saying , i dont blame anyone except myself ..

@rooster .. thats all i want is opinions , in fairness it is pretty obvious now, sitting at home , looking at the photo .. but in the moment , finding a space , getting sorted, reading re-reading , etc,,, i totally honestly thought i was ok to park .. the 'no waiting' jus didnt register .. and if only there was someone to make enquiry to eh ! i believe it is the councils financial interest to not improve the signs ! as i say the whole bay was full of ticketed cars ! we arent all idiots ! (in the dark with orange street lighting it certainly was alot less clear than the sign llok in the photo!)

 

I am going to challenge the ticket on the issue of clarity .. the two of us , my mate who was there and the two enforcement officers all agreed that the signage was not clear.

i dont expect to get have the ticket over turned though !

 

i dont mind paying for things i have done wrong , but take issue when i honestly and in clear conscience believe i have done everything i can to stay within requirements !

 

£35 is a big deal to me !

 

ps - i was only the passenger in the car , but because we both discussed the parking and both decided it was ok , and the fact the driver is off to the states for a month on tuesday, i said i would take up the issue and pay the fine on his behalf , we will split it 50/50 when he gets back .

Edited September 13, 2009 by matt spqr

[Jamberson]

The parking bay needs to have a sign. You said you didn't see one.

 

Can you ascertain whether there was one up? If not, the bay is not enforceable. If so, what did it say?

[matt spqr]

@jamberson - we were parked in the very last bay , at the end of the road .. i have been looking at googlemap and there is a sign back down the road and around the corner from where we were .. above the other pay and display meter (at a guess 12 car lengths away and not in line of sight ) the photo i took is of the pay and display meter next to the very last bay where we were parked - there definitely is no sign above it or within view.

I noticed that entering the road there are two road signs that state "PEDESTRIAN AREA fri - sat 8pm to Midnight, sat - sun midnight - 4am"

so theres a discepency imo between big signs saying 8pm pedestrian area and the tiny 6pm no waiting on the meter!

 

?

 

i have to go back and double check where and what signs are there now!!

[Jamberson]

There needs to be a sign next to the bay you were parked in. It need not be next to the spot where you parked, but must be applicable to the bay. If it's next to a different bay, and the one you parked in doesn't have one at all, you've got a case.

[lamma]

check what is there now every time. Google streetview is just historical and should not be relied on.

[matt spqr]

@Jamberson - is there a technical description to diffentiate where one 'bay' ends and where the next one starts?

@lamma - yeah , i will go back and check what is ther now .. i was just using googlemap out of interest, cos i am an hour and a half away from Bristol

[Jamberson]

Yes. A bay will have end lines at right angles to the kerb, which will be broken white lines, just like the ones running down the outside length of the bay. The whole thing will form a complete rectangle with the kerb, outlining the parking area.

 

Two separate bays will have something else between them, eg a stretch of yellow lines. If there are two different bays 'touching' each other, the lines running out from the kerb will be double broken white lines rather than single, and this signifies that one ends and the other starts.

 

There must be a sign for each bay.

[green_and_mean]

If there are two different bays 'touching' each other, the lines running out from the kerb will be double broken white lines rather than single, and this signifies that one ends and the other starts.

 

 

There are only double lines if the bay would 'normally' have double at the end. If the bay would normally end in a single line and meets another similar bay ie permit bay meets blue badge bay they share a single transverse line.

[pin1onu]

Bristol have been known to be a bit lax on getting the TRO's right.

 

I would not only check the bays but also check that the Traffic Regulation Order for the bays in question are correct. They must specify all the restrictions. Without this being done the bays and signs become meaningless. A TRO is public document and the council is obliged to have it available for anyone to view.

 

Contact details for the transport section for BCC can be found here.

[matt spqr]

@pin1onu - " A TRO is public document and the council is obliged to have it available for anyone to view" .. so do i just email and ask them to send me the TRO for this parking bay/this road or is it just one document to cover all of bristol? should i be requesting a hard copy version or simply asking where this document is available for public viewing?

 

On the other score - i think this area is one parking bay with two pay and display meters .. the furthest from where i parked has the regulation signs on the lampost , it is out of sight from the second pay and display meter where i parked (at the end of the road) and there are no other signs for this parking bay.

[green_and_mean]

@pin1onu - " A TRO is public document and the council is obliged to have it available for anyone to view" .. so do i just email and ask them to send me the TRO for this parking bay/this road or is it just one document to cover all of bristol? should i be requesting a hard copy version or simply asking where this document is available for public viewing?

 

On the other score - i think this area is one parking bay with two pay and display meters .. the furthest from where i parked has the regulation signs on the lampost , it is out of sight from the second pay and display meter where i parked (at the end of the road) and there are no other signs for this parking bay.

 

The contravention is parked on a SYL so that is more important than the pay and display signs.

[matt spqr]

OK,, starting to get my head around it .. i can forget about the pay and display meters and signs .. concentrate on the SYL issue and the signs that explain exactly what regulations are in force.

 

the contravention on the ticket states : 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours.

 

I dont get how they expect any visitors to Bristol to make head or tail of it all ! i would love to know how much revenue is raised simply from misunderstanding the issue .. in my mind its a fair cop if you park somewhere knowing its against regs, you know those times you run into a shop for example .. but when it is down to confusing signs whci contradict each other - or which leave you with one impression when that is not the case is well out of order ! i know ignorance of the law is no defence , but for so many to be to be confused it must be obvious to the council that there is an issue here !

[green_and_mean]

OK,, starting to get my head around it .. i can forget about the pay and display meters and signs .. concentrate on the SYL issue and the signs that explain exactly what regulations are in force.

 

the contravention on the ticket states : 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours.

 

I dont get how they expect any visitors to Bristol to make head or tail of it all ! i would love to know how much revenue is raised simply from misunderstanding the issue .. in my mind its a fair cop if you park somewhere knowing its against regs, you know those times you run into a shop for example .. but when it is down to confusing signs whci contradict each other - or which leave you with one impression when that is not the case is well out of order ! i know ignorance of the law is no defence , but for so many to be to be confused it must be obvious to the council that there is an issue here !

 

The signs are the only legal signs they can place to show the restriction the problem is drivers do not bother looking at them. A yellow line means there is a parking restriction at some point in the day.

[Jamberson]

I'm confused now. You said you parked in the very last bay. Now you seem to be saying you were on a yellow line?

 

You were in a parking bay, right? So you need to check TRO/signage applicable to the bay.

[green_and_mean]

I'm confused now. You said you parked in the very last bay. Now you seem to be saying you were on a yellow line?

 

 

The bays are part time with a waiting restriction outside permitted parking hours. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/02311348.gif 639.1B variation is used with lower half showing paid for hours. The sign is quite clear if you read all of it.

[Jamberson]

If we rewind a little - the OP said he did not see a sign for the bay. The first thing to do is try and find out if there was one or not, and if there was, what it said.

 

If there was a valid sign, then the TRO will be a subsequent enquiry.

[green_and_mean]

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/tsmanual/tsmchapter3.pdf

 

Gives guidance on the placement of signs.

 

The bays if still marked as on google do not comply in design to the TSRGD the outside lines have too many dashes so you can add that to any appeal if they are still the same. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/023113bm.gif