Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

  • Recommended Topics

  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 160 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like
  • Recommended Topics

What constitutes a valid CCA?


krysp
style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 4243 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

Received Amex's version of a valid CCA which consisted of a signed application form from the late 90's and a set of terms from 2002 (dated on bottom corned of T&Cs).

 

Am I correct in assuming that something fishy is going on, surely the terms should be dated on or before the application form date, not three or four years after.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I reieved the same thing, sent a dispute letter and a SAR they have 2 days left for SAR but today recieved a letter saying A/c Closed and being sent to DCA ....

 

I know they have just let go 50 more staff in Brighton last friday so maybe feel that the only way to deal with things is pass to a DCA??

 

Send off a dispute letter and also a SAR request Letter in templates worth the £10 as they should send you everything or admit they do not have it.

 

Plus you have more details to offer as defence should it o to court.

Good luck ..

Please except my sincere thanks for any help... Knowledge can be dangerous but experience is priceless!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks popman, an SAR may be the way I need to go on this one. It almost escaped me and only by complete fluke did I pick up on it.

 

By the way, is RMA Resolve the DCA your alleged Amex debt is being sold onto? If it is, they're an inhouse department of Amex, not an external DCA.

Link to post
Share on other sites

thanks for that detail, as yet I have not been informed but I expect i will soon!

 

I am giving them 2 more days the will report failure to comply to SAR that will be fun I do like making them work for there crust !!

Please except my sincere thanks for any help... Knowledge can be dangerous but experience is priceless!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I've just complained to the ICO about Lloyds who failed to provide me with a CCA in the 12+2 timeframes and have just failed to provide an SAR in 40 days.

 

I'm not expecting anything to come of it, but the authorities have got to start taking these types of complaints seriously sooner or later.

 

The more people that complain about the continued defiance of consumer legislation by banks/ DCA's etc the better.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 8 months later...

A while ago, I requested a CCA from Amex, which they provided in good time and even returned my £1 postal order.

 

I've just looked at it again and I've noticed an anomaly.

 

The CCA is a copy of a signed application form with no terms whatsoever on the back of the copy. I signed and dated the application form in 1998

 

Amex have included comprehensive terms for the credit card but these have a date of 2002 on them (4 years after my account with AMEX was opened)

 

There is also another set of terms from 2009.

 

Does the above constitute a valid CCA?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Scanned and Photobucket'd info as requested:

 

Application Form

AmexApplication.jpg picture by krysp_bucket - Photobucket

 

Terms (1 of 2)

AmexTerms1of2.jpg picture by krysp_bucket - Photobucket

 

Terms 2 of 2

AmexTerms2of2.jpg picture by krysp_bucket - Photobucket

 

There are other pages containing terms and I can scan these if required but they simply contain the legal jargon associated with all CCA T&Cs.

 

Where I think the problem lies with enforceability is that the reference numbers on the the documents do not match (I've circled them on each document). I am assuming the an enforceable CCA should be a contract (or application form) with the prescribed terms. What I've been provided by AMEX is an application form with any old terms.

 

Do the terms have to be part of the same document (i.e. matching document reference numbers at the very least) and does the fact that there is 4 years difference between the date on the approved application form and the reference number on terms constitute an unenforceable agreement that I can legitimately dispute with AMEX?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi just my opinion but 1, you need an enforceable agreement ie one that embodied the prescribed terms etc from inception and 2, need the T&C etc from inception of the agreement to prove they have the legal right to alter the agreement etc.

 

So my opinion they have sent you a load of old you know what

 

dpick

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for your reply dpick, I'm with you that they're pulling the wool... and are betting that I didn't check the dates of the document reference numbers.

 

I'll stop paying Amex from next month, what sort of fall out can I expect?

Link to post
Share on other sites

IMHO it is important that you send the 'account in dispute' letter so that they are left in no doubt that you dispute the validity and enforcability of the C++p they have sent you.

A possible letter sent when an 'agreement/application' is received and is questionable..

 

Address

 

Date

 

Dear sir/madam

 

Thank you for your response to my request under the Consumer Credit Act section 78.

In your response you confirm this as a true copy of the original agreement executed by yourselves on the XXXXX.

 

As you must realise this agreement does not conform to sections 60(1) and 61(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and would therefore only be enforceable by a court under s65. However, the absence of any (prescribed terms / signature) means that a court would be prevented from enforcing it under s127(3).

 

I am granting to you a further 21 days to produce a copy of an executable agreement. After that I will consider that the above account is closed and that you will no longer pursue the alleged debt.

 

After this period you should close the file and cease processing an personal data relating to me on this matter.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Amend as required.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've read lots of posts about Amex and they seem to be a very unpleasant company to deal with once relations deteriorate between creditor and alleged debtor. So, in the first instance I'm going to write a polite letter to Amex to query the anomaly between the application date (06/1998) and terms date (05/2002).

 

As there is 4 years difference between the dates of the application form and terms, does that mean that any charges levied during that period are unlawful and can be ligitimately claimed back or am I clutching at straws that aren't there?

 

My longer term aim is not to go to war with Amex but to get them to agree to an as low as possible F&F settlement

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 years later...

Since notifying Amex of financial hardship back in 2009,

I've been paying them a fixed sum each month.

 

I've received no communications from them at all,

 

which I'm surprised about as my other creditors write to me every six months like clockwork, demanding more money

- which I respond to ever so politely, telling them to bog off!

 

I've received no financial statements from them, which I believe they are legally obliged to provide annually

- I'm tempted to stop paying them altogether to see if there's a reaction.

 

I'm about to send Amex an SAR as I think the PPI may be reclaimable,

but I'm thinking that may stir them into pursuing the debt more vigorously.

 

Is anyone else paying Amex either via a managed DMP or like me, a self managed one, and receives regular communications?

 

Also, I'm moving onto a boat shortly, will banks accept a PO Box as a mailing address?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, they are obliged to send you statements.. someone posted that section of the regulations up .. I will find them and post them here for you.

 

If a PO box is all you have then the banks are going to have to accept, arent they?

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

Link to post
Share on other sites

Here you go..

 

 

9.1 If a creditor does not give the debtor an annual statement in respect of a fixed-sum credit agreement when he is required to do so, then he is not

entitled to enforce the agreement during the period of non-compliance. In

addition, the debtor is not liable to pay any interest calculated by

reference to the period of non-compliance, or any default sum which

would have become payable during that period or which relates to any

breach occurring during the period.

 

68

9.2 Similar consequences apply if the creditor fails to give a notice of sums

in arrears under a fixed-sum or running-account credit agreement.

 

69

9.3 If the creditor fails to give a default sum notice, he is not entitled to

enforce the agreement until the notice is given.

 

70

 

If the creditor fails to

give a notice of post-judgment interest, he is not entitled to charge

interest until a notice is given.71

 

 

You're welcome citizenB. I am including the OFT pamphlet which explains the Post Contractual info. plus guidance on many other topics that may be of

interest. They even do a section for creditors and dcas on how to construct [and how not to construct] letters to debtors.

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/about-the-oft/legal-powers/legal/cca/Postcontractinfo

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?840-Stop-your-bank-or-lender-breaching-their-instalment-agreement

 

With regards to your concern that you might stir things up if you send SAR.. I shouldnt worry too much about that - I doubt that it will. However, in the event that it does.. have a read of the article above :)

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

Link to post
Share on other sites

With regards to the Post office box address - nearly all banks use them - why should they complain if a customer wishes to use one ??

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks...

 

There's another creditor that I've stopped paying a couple of years ago as it's in dispute. If I disappear and don't notify them of my new address, can they obtain a CCJ against me in my absence or will they have to deliver a summons to me in person before taking me to court. Alleged debt still with OC but gets farmed out to DCA's from time to time. I believe it's unenforceable as I've had no other comms other than the usual threat-o-grams from DCA's.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm, if they issue a claim to your last known address will it likely get returned to sender or forwarded on to your post office box address ?

 

It has been known for CCJs to be awarded by default where the claim form is never received so not responded to. If that were to happen and you discovered a CCJ you could apply to have it set aside. Although if the claim were to be returned to the court as no longer at that address, the claimant might not move forward. Is it for a largish sum ?

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

Link to post
Share on other sites

About £11k, so I suppose it is pretty largish.

 

One might argue that if they were to take legal action then they would have already. The whole unenforceability of debt confuses me with some posters stating that the recent test cases have all but removed the 'unenforceable' defence whilst others state that it can still be defended if case law is argued correctly and the judge is agreeable.

Link to post
Share on other sites

regular contact with your cra file

will alert you to any impending trouble

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

Link to post
Share on other sites

noddle is free

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...