DVLA court action

[Andrew1974]

Dear All,

 

Found good advice elsewhere on this forum so hoping someone can help here.

 

In July06 I bought a car, received log book etc and everything fine until June 07 when it broke down. At end of June car tax was due. As car was off the road I declared in SORN. In August I decided it was not economical for me to repair so sold it for £200. Filled in log book etc and sent to DVLA. Over the next month my eife had a baby and I changed jobs...amongst all of that I did not realise that I had not received a confirmation from the DVLA.

 

In Aug 08 I received a fine notice from DVLA for not either taxing my car or renewing my SORN. Rang the DVLA and explained the situation. The lady on the phone said she would look into it and I didn't hear anythign till Jan 09 .

 

In Jan 09 I received a letter from DVLA telling me that someone else was trying to register the car that they still had registered to me. Rang them again and was told that if I was happy for someone else to register the car then there was nothing else I needed to do.

 

In August I received a letter of intended prosecution for not paying a fine for failing to notify of change of keeper! A fine had been sent in Mar 09 but not received by myself. Again called the DVLA to find out what was going on!

 

Completed the relevant documents (ie Not guilty plea) and sent them back to the DVLA with a covering letter, and waited for my new court date where I could put my case.

 

Today got a letter from the court for a fine of £250 plus costs....

 

I've sent a letter to the court with all the above info (but with lots more detial) plus copies of the forms I sent in August....but does anyone know waht actions I can actually take now!!!

[buzby]

Why send your plea to the DVLA? It you did not reply to the COURT, then your would be judged to be automatically in default and the case found in DVLA's favour. To progress tihs, you'll need to prove youcorrectly replied rejecting the charges against you - otherwise, it costs an arm and a leg to try and get the case reopened (and with no certainlty of success).

[Andrew1974]

Thanks for your reply

 

Why send your plea to the DVLA? It you did not reply to the COURT, then your would be judged to be automatically in default and the case found in DVLA's favour.

 

I replied to the DVLA because that is what it tells you to do on the court papers.

 

I followed everything it asked me to do, and even rang them to check I had understood the procedure correctly.

[Lawyers-Online]

In Gordon Brown's fairy-tale World of non-productive created jobs it is inevitable that this type of thing happens. No one is a decision maker. No one has discretion and no one at D.V.L.A. has a grain of common sense. They all operate in their own silly box, with their own silly name label around their neck (so they remember who they are), dispensing silly regulations that have no basis whatever in common sense. It is called control of the people by state dependent employees - of which close on 24% of the working population are now members. Yes, close on 24% of the working population under Brown are non-profit making and state dependent for their income. Wouldn't it have been so much simpler to have sent an email back and forth and dealt with the problem? But hang on, that is not playing the game under Brown. Letters threatening prosecution, penalty notices, court summonses, court action, appeals etc all mean that we keep the minions employed at our cost - doing absolutely nothing of any worth. They simply generate paper that we then have to suffer the personal cost of reading and dealing with.

 

If a decision comes from a court, you should lodge an appeal back to that court (within the time scale allowed) and advise D.V.L.A. This will stop enforcement action until the appeal is heard. BUT, you will to attend court, presumably in Swansea. No have no guarantee of outcome. Probably better to appeal, then write to Swansea to the most senior person in the department dealing and try to demonstrate that the conviction is flawed - setting out your very precise reasons. Ask, if he/she finally agrees, that they contact the court and consent to your application. It can all then hopefully be done via the mail. No point in 'phoning. Send everything Recorded Delivery. Print off the delivery information (including signature) from the Royal Mail web site. It is high time DVLA was closed down. It is inefficient and its staff wholly incompetent.

 

I can tell you D.V.L.A. can be beaten. In the past two years they have lost my old style driving licence which I had submitted for change after moving to a new home and tried to force me to buy a new one so they could destroy it and issue the new type!!! I refused to pay. They eventually, after I think 3 months, issued me with a new one.

 

They then lost my V5 vehicle Registration Document that had been sent to note change of user and tried to get me to pay £25 for a new one. I refused to pay. My local Post Office had sent it to DVLA on my behalf. I told DVLA this. They finally sent me a new one, without explanation or apology.

 

They also fined me £80 for not filling in a SORN, even though it had been sent to an old address. The fine was revoked.

[buzby]

Yes, the DVLA can be beatn - but what concerns me is the abuse of process. I cannot see even with Gordon Brown's interference, how the DVLA can issue proceedings and as the Pursuer, require the defender to respond to THEM. OF course this is guaranteed to work against the defender as submissions can be 'lost' or mislaid, seriously disadvantaging the defender.

 

The DVLA can certainly arrange to forward the court papers once stamped, but if they are advising you need to lodge your denfences or response to them and not the court - this is very, very wrong.

 

Are you SURE you are not mistaking pre-litigation pantomimes from the DVLA as an actual judicial process? Your letter from the court - does it say your action was 'undefended'? If so, you've been shafted and you need to have the action recalled PDQ.

[Lawyers-Online]

Hi Buzby. Thank you for your comments. My English could have been better. On re-reading it it was ambiguous. Firstly I believe the appeal from the decision should be to the Crown Court, not back the Magistrates' Court as I erroneously said yesterday. By suggesting that Andrew 1974 write to DVLA after he had lodged the appeal was to have a dialogue between Andrew1974 and the D.V.L.A. before the appeal was heard, thus if agreement could be reached, DVLA could consent to the appeal in Andrew1974's favour and save either side attending. If DVLA would not consent at least the appeal date was moving closer and it may influence the court in deciding costs etc in the event that Andrew1974 was the victor. The biggest problem is to get anyone at DVLA to accept responsibility for their error. Of course the cost of appeal is likely to be substantial in that it will be heard in Wales, which is likely to be some distance from the appellant's home. Lost of income too springs to mind. This is of course why so many of these disgraceful things go unchallenged. People simply make a commercial decision that it isn't worth the cost. I truly believe that D.V.L.A. was put on this Earth to irritate us all and that its post box is just some huge black hole into which everything just goes - never to be seen again. Its performance (or lack of it), by any measure, is disgraceful. It should be privatised, experts should consider the bare bones number of staff required and its work force should have to re-apply and be re-interviewed for their jobs by an outside non-governmental agency. It is simply not fit for purpose.

[Andrew1974]

Thanks for your comments guys.

 

The document I received from the court was from Trafford mMagistrates Court and is headed 'Notice of fine and colelction order'

 

This lists the offence (failure to notify secretary of sate of an alteration) fine £175, and two seperate lines headed costs for £60 and £15... total of £250.

 

It lists what can happen if I don't pay (increased fine, deductions from earnings, imprisonment etc) and tells me any queries can be made to the address at the top of the letter. Oh and the letter tells me I must pay by the 1st September, 4 (yes four) working days after the court hearing and 6 days BEFORE I recevied the letter telling me I had to pay!!! Unfortunately I don't have any means of scanning the letter to upload it.

 

I have written to the address on the letter, settign out the facts of what has happened and askign what I can do about the error I believe has been made.

 

Just a question re the the comments above, if I do decide to formerly appeal etc why would it be heard in Cardiff. The DVLA office that prosecuted be is in Preston Lancashire, the Magistrates court is in Trafford, Greater Manchester and I live in Cheshire?

[buzby]

You appeal to the court that heard the case. I've no idea where Cardiff came from... for starters, DVLA head office is in Swansea!

Edited October 5, 2009 by buzby

[Lawyers-Online]

Boy have I stirred up a hornet's nest. Buzby, why should you appeal a magistrates' decision back to the same magistrates. I think you are wrong. My field is insolvency, if I think a decision of a County Court warrants an appeal, I do so to the High Court. It may well be in the same building. My view is, and I take some persuading otherwise, that the appeal lies with the Crown Court in this case. An appeal is always to a higher court. Do the DVLA have seperate powers? I hope not. I think this case is a mess from start to finish. My previous advice I believe is sound. No oik at DVLA is going to admit an error, not is it likely that a Magistrates' Court admin team will either. As to your comment about Cardiff, a slip of the pen. As it turns out it started its life in Chester in any event! When I did battle with DVLA litigation started life in Yeovil. The venue isn't important in the scheme of things. The principle is the same. Andrew1974 knows the court. All he needs to remember is that these circumstances dictate everything is sent recorded delivery and copies retained.

[Lawyers-Online]

He should always remember too that he needs to include in the pleadings that execution (of the warrant) be stayed pending the outcome of the appeal. The Order has been made, any warrant that flows from it is based on that Order. One cannot pre-judge the outcome of any appeal. I suspect common sense would prevail and the court would not try to enforce but one can never be certain.

[Andrew1974]

Hi guys,

 

I received another letter from the court today.

 

This one headed 'Further Steps Notice'

 

It lists all the things that will happen if I don't pay within 10 days then there is a section at the end of the letter.

 

'Appeal

 

You have the right to appeal to the court against the Fines Officer's decision. Such appeal must be in writing, stating the reasons for your appeal and supported by any written evidence you have. It must be received by this office, at the above address, within 10 working days from th edate of this notice.'

 

Sounds like I've done the right thing so far. I'm assuming my letter and this one have crossed in the post. I can check tommorrow to see when my letter was delivered.

 

I find it interesting that the three items of post I've now had relating to this have all been sent normal second class post, yet give really tight deadlines for response!

 

Thanks agains for your help, guidance and support.

 

Andrew

[Andrew1974]

Earlier today I was taking with a friend, who, it turns out, has had not a wholly unsimilar situation.

 

In this case they, by accident, ommitted to renew there road tax. Car got towed, a fine paid, back tax paid (for the month with not tax) plus a new tax disc purchased. When all of this was paid in person at the DVLA office it was confirmed that this was the end of the matter.

 

3 month later for court hearing was received in the post. I fine had been sent 2 months earlier but not received (Does this sound familiar). Phone calls and letter communication with DVLA was made but they woudl not budge, dispite evidence beign submitted that the fine had been paid allready. My friend went to court and stood up infront of the judge with details of all the events, including copies of letters sent, bank statements and records of phone calls etc.

 

The judge (magistrate?) dismissed the case and asked the DVLA for court costs for wasting his time!!!

 

There is hope.

[Lawyers-Online]

Today things seem slightly clearer. We seem to have two issues. The first is the conviction in the Magistrates' Court for the offences you have explained. This, in my judgement needs to be appealed as set out in my earlier missives.

 

The second issue is the Fines Officer and his decision as to payment of the fine relating to the conviction, the apparent cock-up over dates etc, which produced almost an impossible situation for you to adhere to.

 

If you accept the conviction, then you need to liaise with the Fines Officer and negotiate time to pay, if that is what you want.

 

If you do not accept the conviction and one of the grounds, at least, is that you did not receive notice of the hearing date and had you done so would have appeared and defended the action because you are not guilty, then you are perfectly entitled to appeal the conviction - if of course you are not guilty. If you waste the court's time with a spurious appeal it may well, I would have thought, fine you a higher amount.

 

It seems to me though, that you were in contact with DVLA regarding the matter and it is it that seems to have denied receipt of your letters and it is that has allegedly sent out letters to you warning of the potential of action that you never received. I wonder if they keep a Post-Book showing all mail out and where are the copy letters they presumably kept on their computer - which will have been saved back to hard drive with an indelible file number? This sort of thing happens far too often with DVLA. I recall when they claimed non-receipt of documents my local Post Office sent on my behalf. I spoke with the staff there, who related many similar stories to me. The problem is endemic at DVLA (as it is with Revenue and Customs and so many other arms of the state machinery, whose staff by their nature are state dependent for their salaries). We simply do not get high quality people manning these positions. It would be fair to say we get people of a certain type who work in the state dependent sector. No criticism will make a jot of difference. They will retain their jobs no matter how bad they are at it.

 

Keep on battling. You will win eventually.

 

AW

[Andrew1974]

I'm in court tomorrow re the appeal.

 

I've prepared the few documents I have, I've already sent copies to the court (as requested) and I'm taking 3 copies with me just in case.

 

Never been to court before (apart from Jury Duty) so I am feeling a little on the nervous side. I'll post the outcome tomorrow. Thanks for all the help and support so far.

 

Andrew

[buzby]

Good luck, Andrew - althogh I'm sure you won't need it! REMENVER if something happens, or a proceedure takes place you don't understand ASK for it to be explained to you in terms that you will understand, and do not be intimidated or lose your temper.

[Lawyers-Online]

Thanks for keeping me up to date. The GOLDEN RULES - 1. Take pen & paper with you, if the other side says something that is incorrect, make CAREFUL note of it and when it is your turn bring it up-DO NOT TRUST TO MEMORY- ADRENALIN IS PUMPING, YOU WILL FORGET. Also, at the very end, make careful note of the outcome. 2. keep very calm and relaxed. Take plenty of deep breaths before you go in. 3. Never Never interrupt the other side, or the judge, or Magistrates depending where you are. You will be given your chance later - in fact you will be asked if you have anything further to say. 3. Don't mumble. Speak clearly and precisely - no ums and ahs. 4. Don't repeat yourself. 5. Be totally objective, do not stray into subjectivity - it doesn't help. 6. If the solicitor for the DVLA attends he will almost certainly, before the hearing, approach you on a fishing trip. Listen politely and when asked a question, simply say you prefer to say nothing and leave it to the court. 8. Be prepared, tonight make careful note of the points you wish you raise. More cases are lost through bad or unprofessional preperation - don't be flustered. 7. Finally, Be polite throughout - no matter the outcome. The best of luck.

[Andrew1974]

Hello All,

 

Good news....the morning unfolded thus.

 

Arrived at court prepared, following advice on this and other threads I'd prepared a statement to read if I was asked, so I didn't forget anyhting. Taken copies of the relevant legislation etc. Arrived at court in good time. The Prosecutor for the DVLA was talking to each of those who turned up in turn, which I thought a little strange. When it was my turn I was undecided whether to tell her anything or wait until court. But I thought that as I had been open and honest in all my deailing with the DVLA until this point I should continue, so I told her exactly why I would be pleading not guily, and showed her a copy of the statement that I had prepared. She read about half of it, told me she was withdrawing the action, appologised for wasting my time and then went and saw the judge, the the court usher then came to inform that my fine had been recinded and the case dropped.

 

Good result, just a shame I didn't get to 'say my bit' in court...I'd been up half the night practicing.

 

Another interesting point. During my conversation with the DVLA lady she told me that the DVLA should have sorted this sooner but it is my responsibility to tell the DVLA. I responded that I had told them (one correctly and futher two times by phone) She mentioned that it was my responsibility to ensure that the confirmation slip was recieved. I acknoweldged that if had chased the lack of confirmation that it may have been resolved sooner but commented that I was not aware of any legal obligation to do so....she admitted that she wasn't aware of any either!!!! Shame I didn't record that or get it in writing!

 

Good luck to anyone else going through similar situations and thanks everyone for your help and advice.

[buzby]

A good result, however if I had been in your situation I would not have agreed to their abandomnet, as by doing so you lose your right to costs. You were put under a great dela of stress and put a far bit of work to prove your case. I've seen this happen many times, and the solicitor for the DVLA had done due dilligence long before you had to appear on the court steps. You would have been within your rights to say you'd like £100 from the DVLA to cover you notional costs, and if the solicitor did not agree, you go to court and have the judge rule in yout favour, and you then ask him for costs.

[Andrew1974]

I did consider the costs thing....I realitiy the only actual cost was the £1.70 parking plus a bit of ink and paper in my printer.

 

Hadn't really thought about notional costs to be honest...just glad to have won and get out of what has to be one of the most depressing buildings in the world!

[buzby]

That's why it is done that way - most folk want to see it disappear and take the offer, losing their right to be paid for their efforts to clear their name for the unjustified slight. Do also remember, if you forgot or did not make it to court, the next stage would probably have been the bailiffs for enforcement of a fine....

 

If more people insisted on costs, the value to the DVLA of their actions would need to be calculated and addressed, as it would become less profitable for them.

[Lawyers-Online]

Well done, I am pleased you got the result BUT had you remembered my advice to say nothing to the other side (see my last letter) you would have been enriched by the costs the judge would have awarded you. You played a very dangerous game, the DVLA solicitor could have seen something in your (legally priviliged) paper-work that could have weakened your case. You could have then lost. Buzby is about right, you would have probably been awarded £100 or so. You should not have agreed to withdraw prior to the Hearing. Next time, please please show the other side NOTHING. I also beat the DVLA. I hope now everyone who has suffered at the hands of this monumentally grotesque, innefficient arm of this damned awful government fights back. Put the bastards to proof every time. Cost them money every time. Only then will someone responsible for hurling huge quantities of tax-payers' cash to support this army of grossly inefficient civil servants, stand back and start to look at the many problems the DVLA has.