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zhanzhibar vs Sainsbury's loan


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Court Case no 4 :(: a bit different to the others hence I am posting all docs up just to ask fellow caggers opinion.

 

Got a loan with Sainsbury's bank back in 2003, got about £2k left, been paying £8 a mth since early 2007 when they decide to assign (sell?) the debt to 1st Credit.

 

1st Credit ask me to stop paying the £8/mth so I did & then not long after got this POC dated 15th May 2009.

 

CCF04092009_00000-1.jpg

 

So then I sent a CPR 31.14 1st page as below:

 

CCF04092009_00003-1.jpg

 

Not long after that, 9th June 2009 to be exact, I got a letter from from LCS saying they are sending a NOtice of Change of Solicitors from J&P Solicitors to LCS solicitors. Now I received this a couple of days ago.

 

CCF04092009_00005-1.jpg

CCF04092009_00001-1-1.jpg

CCF04092009_00002.jpg

 

CCF04092009_00004.jpg

 

 

My queries if anybody can help me with please:

 

1) Is this agreement enforceable under CCA 1974?

 

2) Their POC did not mentioned the word "DEFAULT" (I think:confused:) but I did request the copy of the default notice in my CPR 31.14 letter as well as including it my defense to the claim. They did not give a copy of the DN in their bundle. All that were there in the bundle were:

a) the so called agreement

b) notice of assignment

c) notice of change of solicitor

d) statement of account (which I have posted the last page above)

 

So because there is no "default" word is used in the POC, does that mean they do not have to fully comply to my CPR31.14 request re DN? Surely I am entitled to received a copy of the DN.

 

3) Can I still ask for the DN ? I was thinking that perhaps they worded the POC without the word "default" & not giving a copy to me coz they know that they screwed up on the DN:confused: what do you all think?

 

4) The amount stated in the POC is £2,245.35 plus stat int. NOw having received the statement, the last page as shown above the account was closed at £2,140.35, £105 less than that in POC. I checked & that £105 relates to the charges they applied when sending letters to me which surely is unfair under UCCTR 1995(?)

 

4) In their latest letter the amt I owed is £2,373.73. Is this gone up because of the stat int they applied to it? Can they do that when the reason this has gone on so long is due to them requesting change of solicitors.

Edited by zhanzhibar
Delete Agreemnt number
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Zhan,

 

1) U need to send them a CPR 18 request for anything not stated in the POC

and give them 14 days to reply + copy to the Court

 

2) The agreement contains PPI and it was probably mis-sold. In particular you almost certainly did not receive a copy of any insurance policy.

 

You need to demand under CPR 18 a copy of the insurance policy, and the underwriting agreement as you believe it may have contained a brokers fee which was not disclosed to you at the time

 

3) Unfair charges. Your account will almost certainly contain lots of unfair charges - £15 +. This will affect the validity of your DN, as well as any Notice of Assignment...

 

4) You also need to request a copy of the DEED / Document of Assignment

 

So you need to get a list of all charges. SAR ?

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Thanks Shakey. Any chance you/anybody can guide me to a link that have an example of CPR 18 request? Will do a letter as soon as i found an example from here.

 

That bit about the insurance cover was already blank when I received the agreement so it must means that I did not apply for it so i am going to do CPR 18 request just for the DN i think? Oh and also the SAR for the charges? Do you think that the agreement is enforceable?

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Here is a link to a CPR 18 request used by IGNM. He won in the end and the Claimant discontinued :-

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/197867-arrow-mbna-ignm-pt.html#post2194674

 

Note: The word doc on the above link, contains the CPR 18 req, for default notice, proof of postage, Document / Deed of assignment etc.

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We also need to check the APR of 6.9 is correctly stated (within allowed tolerances) because the repayment schedule is delayed by 2 months. Dualcalc can do this .

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There is a good link here to a defence regarding Notice of Assignment. In particular see para 24 on the Deed of Assignment.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/217075-arrow-global-statutory-demand.html#post2393354

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1st Credit have failed to provide you with a copy of the Deed or Document of Assignment, which you made in your CPR 31.14 request.

 

The actual assignment document is separate from the notice of assignment.

 

It is very important, without it, 1st Credit have no proof they own this debt.

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See paras 34 – 48 of IGNM's successful defence against Summary Judgement, regarding a Duff Notice of assignment AND the Claimant's failure to disclose the DeeD of Assignment under CPR. Yours is similar – you reqested under CPR 31.14 both the Deed AND the Notice. First Credit have only provided the Notice.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/191754-arrow-global-ignm-1st-5.html#post2147629

 

 

Another Useful Defence snippet against Summary Judgment re defective Notice of Assignment (Clivey also got SJ dismissed)

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/148840-enforcable-agreement-mbna-help-5.html#post1801351

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Thought I put the NoA sent to me by dear Sainsbury's.

 

CCF06092009_00000-1.jpg

 

In there, the amt outstanding includes charges..However, having said that, the 2nd page of the agreement in post 1 above list the schedule of default costs. Are all these costs allowed?

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Zhan

 

not sure if you are aware but the agreement number is showing on your document

regards

S

=================================================================

remember

 

the Sun is always shining, it's just that you can't see it sometimes

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Zhan

 

not sure if you are aware but the agreement number is showing on your document

regards

S

 

Thanks Shakey Wasn't sure which document u referring to at first but I found it now. & thanks for all the links too.

 

Dear Zhan

 

Take a look at this Sainsbury's loan thread, the APR and corresponding charge for credit is incorrect. It may be the same with yours.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/212728-sainsburys-bank-dilly2009.html

 

Regards

 

Monty

 

Thanks for the link Monty. I have been searching for caggers with same problem with Sainbury's loan but can't seem to find it.

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There are 2 links here to similar HBOS loan agreements with apparent inaccurate APR :-

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/102011-blair-oliver-scott-bank-20.html?highlight=apex#post1545568

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/139606-can-someone-dualcalc-please.html#post1485865

 

I'm not sure how to work DualCalc to check the delayed payments.

 

It may be worth posting that specific question on the PPI forum, or asking PompeyFaith to have a quick look – he is a wizz at APR stuff, also Steven4064 ….

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Note: APR is not a prescribed term (mis-stating it could make an agreement improperly executed i.e. only enforceable by order of a Court, but a court would not be automatically barred from making an enforcement order by s127(3))

Edited by shakespeare62

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I am not sure about this but by using my simple calculation that i found here somewhere of :

 

The amt they charge me £969.40

Divide with total loan of £5,000

Divide with the loan period of 5 yrs

& multiply by 2

 

I got APR 7.76%. I have been trying to find out how to use dualcalc through all the thread suggested here but I still can't figure it out.. help pls?

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Having now know how to use the dualcalc properly, the APR is actually 7.2%. The way I calculate as taught by Steven is that one payment of zero & 60 payment of £99.49 as stated in the particulars of loan.

CCF11092009_00000.jpg

 

 

 

However having said that, what confused me is that in the particulars of loan it stated:

 

"The total amt payable is payable consecutive mthly instalments commencing Two Months from the date of the agreement as follows:

one monthly instalments of £0.00 followed by 60 month monthly payment of 99.49"

 

As stated above in dualcalc, if I were to use one payment of zero & 60 payments of £99.49 I got APR 7.2% but if i were to put 2 payments of zero and 60 payment of £99.49 in that dualcalc then I will got APR6.9%. Can somebody advised me based on what was stated in the particulas of loan which one is the correct one?

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Hi all

 

I am preapring CPR Part 18 but I've got a few questions here:

 

a) I think that the 2nd page of the agreement (post 1 above) might be sthg they put together. Reason I say this is because I found the copy Bank of Scotland sent me back in 2007 after I requested it but they only sent me the 1st page, no 2nd page. So how do I prove that 1st apge & 2nd page of the agreement sent to me by 1st Credit may not have come fr the same doc?

 

b) On the 2nd page of the agreement they put the schedule of costs, is that allowed? By them putting it in that 2nd page (if it was ever there in the 1st place!) does that mean all those charges they slapped on me is now legal?

 

c) I have requested to see amongs other things deed of assignment & default notice in my CPR 31.14. I have received the others except these 2, so now do include them again in my CPR 18?

Edited by zhanzhibar
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Hi zhan

 

a) to prove they are not the same document, you have to do a bit of detective wrok - eg can you see the print from one side showing through, are they rips or tears or punch holes onone and not the other....

 

b) yes they can put the costs on the agreement. That doesn't make them lawful though - they still have to comply with UTCCR 1999 and they cannot be contract penalties

 

c) if you have not recieved something you have asked for, then ask for it again

 

 

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I am a newbe to this site. I noticed on the credit agreement with Sainsburys Bank there is attatched the Terms and conditions of the loan.

 

One point I wanted to question is section 8. "The Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 shall not apply so as to entitle any third party to any rights or benefits under this agreement.

 

I am unsure about this and the terminology baffles me, but does that not mean a third party, such as a DCA has no rights on this and cannot enforce this.

 

Please help me an educate me.

 

Thanks in advance.

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I am a newbe to this site. I noticed on the credit agreement with Sainsburys Bank there is attatched the Terms and conditions of the loan.

 

One point I wanted to question is section 8. "The Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 shall not apply so as to entitle any third party to any rights or benefits under this agreement.

 

I am unsure about this and the terminology baffles me, but does that not mean a third party, such as a DCA has no rights on this and cannot enforce this.

 

Please help me an educate me.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

I read the section you mentioned & I am too not sure what it means. Would really appreciate if anybody out there could clarify. If it means what i think it means, perhaps I could use it as another line of defense?

 

Zhan

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