Advice required re liability/distress order

[hallowitch]

this is just a thought did you get a student discount for the year the bailiff is trying to collect

 

and from what i have read i think the bailiff was getting payments from your x he stopped paying so they are coming after you(is this correct)

 

if it is you do realise there could be levy charges and van/attendance charges because of this

[binded]

Yes I realise theres going to be charges on my x's behalf, but it would be nice to know exactly what they all amount to as the £250 obviously isn't all first/second calls from when they contacted him. I want a break down though as the amounts on Rossendales website don't match even what the bailiff asked for today. According to website after my payment last week it went down to £1250 approx of which I have a screen print as proof. She has put down a smidge more than that and then added money onto that.

 

No idea on student discount its one of the things that I've put into my letter to the council, I've stated that from 2003 I did not work until 2008. In that time I had a child, and studied as a mature student for 2 years full time at the local uni (still have my id card and of course the certificates to prove I went and passed at least).

 

As for the middle, then you assume as much as I do, I didn't even know it hadn't been paid (him being the bread winner then I assumed all had been oh how stupid I feel and no doubt look). Thus yes they're after me for the full amount, however they've had no contact with me personally on this respect and certainly not since we seperated. The first I knew of this debt until last week. Again more fool me, but ce la vie, too late to worry now I just want to pay it off albeit it slowly and at an amount I can afford, without my 12 year old wondering why his mom is paranoid about the house being like fort knox

[binded]

Todays update. Have received the following letters. Don't really tell me a great deal but do have a break down of the fees incured.

 

Rosesndales

 

Client Ref

Customer Ref

 

To make an immediate payment call our 24 hour automated payment line xxxx quoting reference xxx

Dear sir/madam

 

RE C Tax owing to xx council

Amount outstanding £1316.96

 

Thank you for your recent correspondence, the comments of which have been note.

 

We must advise that we are unable to accept instalments at this stage and payment in full is now required.

 

Therefore, you must contact our van bailiff currently dealing with your account, to arrange immediate payment. The bailiff can be contacted on xxxxxxxxxxxxx.

 

Governing Bailiff

 

Rosesndales

 

Client Ref

Customer Ref

 

To make an immediate payment call our 24 hour automated payment line xxxx quoting reference xxx

RE C Tax owing to xx council

Amount outstanding £1316.96

 

Further to your request for a breakdown of fees charge and payments made, the details are listed overleaf.

 

If you disagree with any of the schedule please forward proof of payments in order that we may persue your query.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Rossendales

 

 

 

Summary for xxxxxxxxx

Jan 3, 2007 Debt 1101.96 Outstanding 1101.96

Jan 19 2007 Visit fee 1 22.50 Outstanding 22.50

Jan 19 2007 visit fee 2 16.50 Outstanding 16.50

Jan 14 2008 Levy fee 56.00 Outstanding 56.00

October 31 2008 Attendance/van 110.00 Outstanding 110.00

September 1 2009 payment by D/C 0.80 Outstanding 0.80

Sept 1 2009 waiting 60.00 Outstanding 60.00

 

Payments

 

September 1 2009 50.80 Number status waiting

 

 

So of all the things I note and whilst its not much is the 0.80 for the debit card payment online. was under the assumption on paying it the 80p paid at the time covered there costs hence its 50.80 paid and not the 50.00 only.

 

Secondly there is a waiting fee of 60.00 and yet on the 1st September what was she waiting for? she knocked at the door I opened it spoke an they went off. I would also assume that there is thus a 60.00 waiting fee for yesterday when she turned up and though she could have waited I wasn't home anyways due to being at work so have no idea.

 

Thirdly there is the first and second visit fees on the same day? are they allowed to do that? I'm assuming at the time they may have visited on different days but it does strike me as odd they turned up for a 1st and 2nd visit both on the 19 Jan 2007.

 

Past the above points I've no idea on the other charges as of course they dealt with my ex so I can only go on there words that the above stands.

 

Any advice on how I reply to this would be much appreciated. If nothing else it all adds to the paper trail I'm attempting to create in a folder of contact with the company.

 

Thanks in advance as always

[hallowitch]

Jan 19 2007 Visit fee 1 22.50 Outstanding 22.50

Jan 19 2007 visit fee 2 16.50 Outstanding 16.50

they cant charge a 1st&2nd visit fee on same day

Sept 1 2009 waiting 60.00 Outstanding 60.00

there is no such thing thing as as waiting fee

 

 

Jan 14 2008 Levy fee 56.00 Outstanding 56.00

October 31 2008 Attendance/van 110.00 Outstanding 110.00

i would not pay this the bailiff set up an agreement with your x partner he defaulted not you why should you pay (again) especially as you were separated when he made this agreement with the bailiff

[binded]

Thanks hallowitch, is there anywhere I can use as a point of reference (say a website) that has the legal prescribed fees that a bailiff can charge. Obviously at the moment my main priority is getting the council to take the debt back, but at the same time attempting to maintain some payment to the bailiffs to keep them off my back (as yet not happening but its been less than two weeks.

 

Having something say a government leaflet detailing the fees allows me to comprehensively ask why they are charging a waiting fee if there is no such thing as well as why the 1st an 2nd visit was charged on the same day (as said originally I assume this is an error but as I've got it in black and white I want clarification on this).

 

Also wondering how on earth I ensure I don't have to pay the levy fee and attenance/van fee as that totals 166.00 and ensure if they really want it they persue my x.

Would be nice not to pay this, but I can't see the bailiff willingly agreeing to this any time soon.

 

Thanks

[hallowitch]

The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992

regulation 45 deals with distress and charges

1. The sum in respect of charges connected with the distress which may be aggregated under

regulation 45(2) shall be set out in the following Table-

(1)

Matters connected with distress

(2)

Charges

A For making a visit to premises with a view

to levying distress (where no levy is

made) –

i) where the visit is the first or only such

visit £24.50

ii) where the visit is the second such

visit:£18

 

 

2.—(1) In heads A and B of the Table to paragraph 1, "the relevant amount" with respect to a visit or a levy means—

• (a) where the sum due at the time of the visit or of the levy (as the case may be) does not exceed £100, £12.50,
  

• (b) where the sum due at the time of the visit or of the levy (as the case may be) exceeds that amount, 12½ per cent. on the first £100 of the sum due, 4 per cent. on the next £400, 2½ per cent. on the next £1,500, 1 per cent. on the next £8,000 and ¼ per cent. on any additional sum;
  
• (2) Where a charge has arisen under head B with respect to an amount, no further charge may be aggregated under heads A or B in respect of that amount.
  

and the sum due at any time for these purposes means so much of the amount in respect of which the liability order concerned was made as is outstanding at the time.

 

Last edited by hallowitch; 18th July 2009 at 16:55.

[binded]

Thanks for that, still working out what on earth my next move is going to be, but at least its the weekend and come 9pm tomorrow I can have a whole day of not being fearful someone may pop around.

 

Ok so if I look at the list of fees above an take those in place before the levy (which I don't actually know what it was for so I guess at some point I'll find out when a subject access is sorted. In the interim am I reading the information you provided above correctly when working this out?

 

The Levy fee shows £56.00 However the 1st £100 is one at 12.5% ie £12.50

 

the next £400 is at 4% and further amounts after that are at 2.5% upto £1500.

 

This would mean at the point that levy was done (taking the amount of CT they state and the 1st an 2nd payments added after this) would sum an amount of £1101.96 + £22.50 + £16.50 = £1140.96.

 

12.5% of £100 = £12.50

4% of £400 = £16.00

2.5% of remainder (£640.96) = £16.024

The total of this = £44.524

 

Am I working this out right ? cos to me thats a deficit of 56.00-44.524= £11.476. This is if its taken as read they have given the correct information that the (albeit it incorrectly added on one day) 1st and 2nd visit fees were the only amounts prior to the levy on top of the debt owed to the council?

 

Also is there anywhere its legally written they cannot take the 1st an 2nd fees on one day, I am wanting to use this to contact the council and get them to take the case back, thus I need to ensure I throw every little snippet of knowledge at them to ensure they know I have done some homework

 

Sorry to be a pest, I want to ensure I fully understand the workings of these fees *blushes*

[hallowitch]

a wee read for you don't know if there is anything in it to help you

Joint and several liability: enforcement
54.—(1) This regulation has effect with respect to the application of regulations 33 to 53 to a sum for which persons are jointly and severally liable under Part V.
 
(2) In this regulation, "joint taxpayers" means two or more individuals who are jointly and severally liable to pay an amount in respect of council tax.
 
(3) A final notice served in accordance with regulation 33 on every person against whom the application for a liability order is to be made may be addressed to two or more joint taxpayers in joint names.
 
(4) A liability order may be made against one or more joint taxpayers in respect of an amount for which they are jointly and severally liable.
 
(5) Where a liability order has been made against two or more joint taxpayers, subject to paragraph (6)—

(a) an attachment of allowances order or an attachment of earnings order may be made against one of them, or different such orders may be made against more than one;

(b) a distress may be made against one or more of them; and

© a charging order may be made against one of them, or against more than one jointly, or different such orders may be made against more than one of them (as the circumstances require).


(6) Where a liability order has been made against two or more joint taxpayers in respect of an amount, steps by way of any method specified in paragraph (5)—

(a) may not be taken in respect of one of them while steps by way of that or another of those methods are being taken in respect of another of them; and

(b) may be taken in respect of one of them notwithstanding that no steps by way of that or another of those methods have been taken in respect of another of them.


(7) Where a distress has been made against two or more joint taxpayers in respect of an amount a warrant of commitment may, subject to paragraph (8), be applied for at any time against one of them or different warrants may be applied for against more than one of them: but no such application may be made in respect of any of them who has not attained the age of 18 years.

 

(8) Where a liability order has been made against two or more joint taxpayers in respect of an amount, a warrant of commitment may not be applied for unless—

(a) distress has been made against all of them; and

(b) the person making the distress reports to the authority that, in relation to each of them, he was unable (for whatever reason) to find any or sufficient goods.


(9) Where a liability order has been made against two or more joint taxpayers in respect of an amount, and a warrant of commitment is issued against (or a term of imprisonment is fixed in the case of) one of them under regulation 47(3), no steps, or no further steps, may be taken against any of them by way of attachment of allowances or earnings, distress, bankruptcy or charging in relation to the amount mentioned in regulation 47(4).

 

(10) Where a liability order has been made against two or more joint taxpayers in respect of an amount and in making distress against one of them goods jointly owned by both or all of them are found, distress may be levied against those goods with respect to that amount; but in any subsequent proceedings under regulation 47 (commitment), charges arising under Schedule 5 from such a distress shall be treated as charges relating to the person against whose goods the levy was intended to be made when the joint goods were found, and not as charges relating to the other or others.

 

(11) Where a liability order has been made against two or more joint taxpayers in respect of an amount, paragraph 2(2) of Schedule 5 shall have effect so that if a charge has arisen against one of them under head B of the Table in paragraph 1 of that Schedule as regards a levy in respect of it, no further charge may be aggregated for the purposes of regulation 45(2) under heads A or B in consequence of any subsequent levy or attempted levy against any of them in respect of that amount; and if a charge has arisen under head A against one of them, it shall be treated as a charge under that head with respect to the others as well as that one for the purposes of the calculation of any subsequent charge under heads A or B against any of them.

Repayments
55. A sum which has become payable (by way of repayment) under Part V to a person other than a billing authority but which has not been paid shall be recoverable in a court of competent jurisdiction

[lets fight bailiffs]

hallowitch you are a star, the following is for lochnettie80

 

(11) Where a liability order has been made against two or more joint taxpayers in respect of an amount, paragraph 2(2) of Schedule 5 shall have effect so that if a charge has arisen against one of them under head B of the Table in paragraph 1 of that Schedule as regards a levy in respect of it, no further charge may be aggregated for the purposes of regulation 45(2) under heads A or B in consequence of any subsequent levy or attempted levy against any of them in respect of that amount; and if a charge has arisen under head A against one of them, it shall be treated as a charge under that head with respect to the others as well as that one for the purposes of the calculation of any subsequent charge under heads A or B against any of them.

[wonkeydonkey]

Is your name actually on the order or is it your ex that had the judgment?

[binded]

ex partners name first and then mine on the end added in capital letters

[hallowitch]

ex partners name first and then mine on the end added in capital letters

 

have you actually seen the liability order if not ask to see it

[wonkeydonkey]

is that added in typing or hand written?

[binded]

Hallowitch The only letters at the moment I have are those I've typed up above that includes the information provided by the bailiff. I've contact the council over a week ago but as yet I've not heard back from them.

 

Wonkey donkey, its typed in.

[hallowitch]

I would send the council a subject access request and ask the council to put the enforcement of this debt on hold until you receive your SAR

 

then I would take a wee trip to see my M P and take my 2 letters from rosendales with me and tell him that you have ask him to get in touch with the council on your behalf to stop the bailiffs after all 40 days is a long time to have bailiffs for a debt that you have had no information from the council for and you have no idea if you owe it

 

ps i hope you understand that (vodi:p)

[binded]

Indeed its late (schnapps but only as its after 9pm sat and I can officially chill until 6am Mon and god did I need one this week).

 

I shall have to work out who and where the information for my local GP is, assuming local CC is the first place to look. Contact with that person will however have to be done in writing as working full time I cannot currently take any leave of absense for work (small company and everyone else booked on holidays atm).

 

Thanks for your assistance.

[binded]

Another day thankfully a peaceful one as I could have the curtains open and feel at least temporarily at ease whislt I rattled off some letters. I'm concerned these won't be recieved in time before another visit and £60 waiting fee is added (be it allowed or not) still theres not a great deal more I can do.

 

I've written to Rossendales requesting details and querying several points of their billing as of course I still want to pay the correct amount owing, but not additional charges they are adding potentially incorrectly. I've asked for details on the 80p fee for card payments as I don't believe they can charge this, the waiting fee and what this comes under (in respect to the relevant act kindly quoted by hallowitch), the two visits on one day and the dispute between the levy amount as calculated and the one charged (I feel they at least need to explain their policy on working this out).

I also used the same template to contact the local council stating that whislt I appreciate that the debt is owed and that I am willing to pay this Rossendales don't want to play ball. As they employ Rossendales I am making them aware of the charges given and that I have requested a payment plan and made a first payment the 2nd to be made on my next pay day, but that unless they take this debt back I shall never manage to actually pay the debt as £60 fee for "waiting" each time they visit means I will never actually pay more than a proportion of one visit by a £50 a month payment.

 

Finally I wrote as suggested by Hallowitch to my local MP, I've explained the situation and that if they (Rossendales) continue with this against me they will cause me to be unemployed I cannot get from my village to the next (drop kid at child minders) get to the next town and then out the otherside to a village to my place of employment which is 16 miles away. A short distance maybes but only do-able by vehicle. I've explained to him if this is allowed and that they take my car they will not only make me unemployed with little means to pay this debt, I will not be able to keep up with current payments or indeed rent payments (private house rent) and would find myself and two children homeless (sounds melodramatic but it would as to gain any employment or housing here you need money and a car as its the only means of transport available.

 

I guess its a watch this space, I can feel myself starting to feel anxious again as another week is dawning and I know that Rossendales will be back, but have set this ball rolling and now have to remain strong until someone takes notice that I will pay but under my terms and not the bailiffs full payment one. Even if they took my car it would still be less than owed and of course then I would be out of work with no money. Logic to me states this would be silly for the council to allow (hence I mulled over the MP contact option) so I'm hoping to make progress eventually.

 

Fingers crossed huh

[binded]

Feel like your taking a step forwards to be shoved a million steps back, any advice would be greatfully appreciated on how to proceed.

 

Todays news is typed through tears and me shaking like a leaf. A letter on my behalf was posted to Rossendales office in respect to the landlords car not being mine and pinned to the door so it was there for the van bailiff in my absense (not that I've any frame of mind to speak to her as she's not pleasant).

 

I've had a text message and a voicemail today during working hours (can have mobile on at work of which theres no signal anyways so it sits in my locker all day) stating she had attended and had clamped my car (this being the red car on the driveway that belongs to my landlord), that she would be sitting and waiting and that for as long as they wait it will cost me £60 an hour. I returned home to find my note removed so I knew she'd seen it, and she had replaced it into my mail box. In hand written letters are the below text I've typed it in to this post.

 

I'm absolutely frantic at the moment, I had to get someone to escort my 12 year old home as I was so afraid of them being here on his return from school (thankfully they weren't) and also for my return with my 5 year old. We're obviously in the house but I still feel so ill at ease and tearful its unbelievable, I can't believe people are paid to do this to others.

 

I am able to remove goods, tools, books and vehicles for council tax and I will. CONTACT me ASAP to get this matter sorted. I have clamped your car DO NOT DRIVE YOU HAVE BEEN CHARGED FOR THIS VISIT

 

There is a leaflet in a plastic wallet attached to the windscreen which I daren't remove, I can see no visiable clamp but having no idea if they're just of the yellow big wheel type variety I'm unsure if it is or isn't clamped as theres no visiable one as far as I can see mind I'm looking via a gap in the curtains. Its still not my car, obviously that means nothing to this woman and am absolutely in fear she will take my landlords car who I then have to brooch about this whole pickle at some cost as he's in Cyprus indefinately.

 

I've no idea what to do now, I fear she'll be back and more so this evening whilst me and the kids are once again hiding in our house like fugitives. I so want to pay this all off, but I just can't I haven't any funds at my means to do this and if she keeps continuing to charge me this waiting fee, I'll never pay the debt off and will be chased by her or indeed Rossendales forever.

 

I don't know how to brooch the latest addition on my letter to her, other than to copy it and pass it onto both the council and the local MP once they've made contact with me. I just don't know what to do other than cry.

 

Thanks

[impecunious]

Hi Binded

 

Firstly -- please, please DON'T let them overwhelm you - I know it's scary and worrying and humiliating, etc, etc. but, at the end of the day, it's just an entry on a balance sheet. Last October I felt exactly as you are now but taking the great advice offered on here and the support of fellow CAGgers, my whole attitude has changed and I have so much more confidence now. Once you're empowed with some basic information and knowledge about your rights etc when it comes to bailiff action, you'll be able to start taking control again and not let fear rule your life. Bailiffs will feed on that fear ,,,,,,,,,, I completely by-pass Rossendales and have been paying the council direct online for the last 3 months. I pay minimum monthly instalments of just £12.50 as I've calculated that to be a realistic and sustainable amount.

 

Almost without exception, we are all "can't" pay - not "won't" pay - so, take some time to work out your income/expenditure (the National Debtline do a great expenditure sheet) and then start paying the Council direct - online payments (making sure the reference no. you quote on your payments is for the outstanding debt and not your current CT).

 

For now, follow the advice given -- keep your doors and windows locked, store away all outdoor stuff in the garden etc and keep shed/garage locked, and park your car out of sight. You'll come to do this as routine - it won't be a chore after too long.

 

And stop crying you can't afford all those tissues - and red noses and blotchy eyes are so not a good look!!!

 

Take care

 

 

Impecunious!!

 

Believing in positive mental attitude

[hallowitch]

I've had a text message and a voice mail today during working hours

stating she had attended and had clamped my car (this being the red car on the driveway that belongs to my landlord), that she would be sitting and waiting and that for as long as they wait it will cost me £60 an hour. I returned home to find my note removed so I knew she'd seen it, and she had replaced it into my mail box. In hand written letters are the below text I've typed it in to this post.

please tell me you kept the text and voice mail

 

text her back and tell her

The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 (amended)

regulation 45 section 5 charges connected with distress does not provide for a waiting time fee

you will however be keeping the text to send with your form 4 complaint

and as for the car it does not belong to you and if she had done a dvla check like she should have she would have found this out

[binded]

Yes text message is saved on my phone (no idea how to get it off there or use it as any evidence for a form 4 yet though unless I leave it on my phone should they require seeing it?), also have the voicemail saved in my answer message thing on my mobile phone, again not sure how I could retreive it from there or if they are safe for a set period of time can't say I've really paid any attention to the voice mail of my phone before now as its never been something I have been compelled to keep.

[hallowitch]

There is a leaflet in a plastic wallet attached to the windscreen which I daren't remove,

 

remove it and send it to rossendales with a note

please do a dvla check property does not belong to me

when confirmed i expect charges connected to this levy removed

 

I'm going on holiday tomorrow for 10 days but will try to look in on you when I'm away

[binded]

Thanks

[binded]

Update for anyone interested on my progress (or not as the case is). Received a letter today from Rossendales as typed in below. Currently attempting to work out the precise working for an affidavit, then I shall scour yell to find a solicitor that will witness me stating vehicle ownership. Going to send Rossendales a letter in the interim (ie tomorrow) stating my intention to get an affidavit signed next week at the first available opportunity/appointment. Mainly as not owning the car I have no bill of sale nor indeed the registration documents as its my landlords car (so frustrating and feeling like a scratched record to them, but for a small fee to get that aspect null needs must).

 

Rossendales

15th September

refs

 

To make an immediate payment call our 24 hour automated payment line quoting your reference

 

Dear Sir/madam

 

Re C.tax owing to xx council

 

We acknowledge receipt of your communication and note your comments.

 

We require by return of post, proof by way of Solicitors Affidavit; bill of sale or any other documents to provide evidence that the car does not belong to yourself. The registered keepers documents are not sufficient proof.

 

The case is in the names of Mr xxxxxx and Miss xxxx and, as such you are both jointly and severally liable for the balance outstanding.

 

Your case has been issued to a bailiff and to avoid this course of action, we now require payment of the full amount within the course of the next 10 days.

 

Governing Bailiff

 

Not had any response at all yet from the local council (they've had two letters and I know they've received them as I've the signature of the person who did so at their office, however I'll be writing them another letter this weekend.

 

I've got to work out how on earth I can get a copy of the bailiffs voicemail message from my mobile phone to I can have a hard copy should anything happen to it as the nice bailiff lady who talks tripe left my name and hers on it so I may need that again and am loath to loose it.

 

I'm going to proceed once I've sat down and worked out the wording with a form 4 this weekend in respect to her overinflated charges and actions as I've verbal (on phone) and written evidence of these.

 

I'm confused to how its gone from they were giving me 24 hours on 1st September and yet this letter states (so assuming its an edited template) that its been issued to a bailiff and I've 10 days to pay (confusing huh). They've also completely failed to acknowledge that I'm now a single parent.

 

I've not heard from my local MP as yet, but I do have a card to state he has received it and that he will be giving my case some attention. Whether he can help or not I don't know but its a start. He's also going to receive the last weeks documents.

 

Its an uphill struggle and I'm glad I can't afford nor have the money to pay them off, I can see how easily people would and do to get them off their backs and still find themselves in the strife with bailiffs grrrrr. Sadly for me or possibly Rossendales I haven't got the funds, so I'm going to fight tooth and nail to get the council to take this back. My last letter to the council stated if they continue to allow Rossendales to maintain this case they will never receive any payments as they will cream off my offer of £50 a month to cover their own fees.

 

No SAR as yet, but then that only went off on Monday and 40 days (assuming its working days is way off atm).

 

Nother weekend letter writing, and how my file of evidence/proof/documentation is growing.

[ploddertom]

Rossendales

15th September

refs

 

To make an immediate payment call our 24 hour automated payment line quoting your reference

 

Dear Sir/madam

 

Re C.tax owing to xx council

 

We acknowledge receipt of your communication and note your comments.

 

We require by return of post, proof by way of Solicitors Affidavit; bill of sale or any other documents to provide evidence that the car does not belong to yourself. The registered keepers documents are not sufficient proof.

 

The case is in the names of Mr xxxxxx and Miss xxxx and, as such you are both jointly and severally liable for the balance outstanding.

 

Your case has been issued to a bailiff and to avoid this course of action, we now require payment of the full amount within the course of the next 10 days.

 

Governing Bailiff

 

As the vehicles are not yours as DVLA check will show, including how long they have been in the other party's name. I think they are clutching at straws. You can swear an Affadavit for free at your local Court if it is near, most other Solicitors only charge a nominal sum of approx £5/£10.

 

As there appears to be various charges on your account I would ask the local Council how much the Liability Order was for, how much so far you have paid and the balance remaining. I would also start to pay the Council direct - they may have an automated telephone system or usually you can pay online. Send Rottendales the "Truth" letter and see what reply you get from them, it may be a lot of the spurious charges disappear. You will of course still be liable to pay the !st & 2nd Visit fees to them - assuming they have not been in or gained a valid levy.

 

PT