Rufus -v- RBS

[aguycalledrufus]

Hi All,

 

I've been issued a Claim Form from Northampton County Court - issue date 21 August 2009.

 

The claimant is RBS and Irwin Mitchell are listed as the address for sending documents and payments.

 

The particulars of the Claim..

By agreement(s) entered into between the Claimant and Defendant, the Defendant has failed to pay the sum of 25***.** The Claimant has requested payment but the Defendant has failed to pay the full sum demanded. The Claimant claims the sum of 25***.** and interest under s.69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at a rate of 8% per annum from 20/08/2009 until judgement or sooner payment. Costs. The claim does not include issues under the Human Rights Act 1998. The Claimant has complied with Sections III and IV of Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct of the Civil Procedure Rules.

 

 

I am following TomTerm8's thread "Basic Introduction to Consumer Credit litigation" as a basis of my defence.

 

30/08/2009 - Acknowledgement of Service completed today 30/08/2009

 

I will send the CPR 18 - Request for Information by Special Delivery on Tuesday when the Post Office is open.

 

My first question is that both this RBS loan and Overdraft are in joint names with my girlfriend, all previous letters (late payments, etc) from RBS have been sent individually both to myself and to my girlfriend at the same. Should my girlfriend expect a Claim Form to arrive addressed to her?

 

Neither of us have received a Default Notice, just a 'Notice'.

 

All help and advice gratefully appreciated.

 

Rufus & Girlfriend

Edited September 17, 2009 by aguycalledrufus

[aguycalledrufus]

Do I send the Request for Information to the RBS Address or to Irwin Mitchell?

[aguycalledrufus]

Bump

[guzzleguts]

Hi rufus and girlfriend

 

send your CPR request to the solicitor irwin mitchell, and you might want to send a CPR 31.14 instead of the 18. Thats what i was recomended.

 

Good luck.

 

GG

[r&b]

hi rufus,

the POC do not state a regulated agreement? if it is regulated they cannot claim s.69 interest.

is this a joint claim for a loan and overdraft?

what was the original amount of the claim(s) and when was the credit taken out?

do u have any paperwork at all to do with the claim?

 

id get a SAR off to RBS regstd address as well, it may throw up some interesting stuff for future reference if £10 is not an issue. try palominos version post 14 here and dont sign:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/192486-court-claim-o-draft.html

[aguycalledrufus]

Hi rufus and girlfriend

 

send your CPR request to the solicitor irwin mitchell, and you might want to send a CPR 31.14 instead of the 18. Thats what i was recomended.

 

Good luck.

 

GG

 

Now I'm a little confused (easily done though) - is the CPR 31.14 better or similar to the CPR 18? - I've not send it off yet, so I can change it to the CPR 31.14.

 

hi rufus,

the POC do not state a regulated agreement? if it is regulated they cannot claim s.69 interest.

- It doesnt state on the POC - how can I tell if it is?

 

is this a joint claim for a loan and overdraft?

- yes it is

 

what was the original amount of the claim(s) and when was the credit taken out?

- O/D was in 2002 at 500, and then to 4400 by the end of 2008.

- Loan taken in approx 2006 for 25000 - will need to check for exact date.

 

do u have any paperwork at all to do with the claim?

- all the paperwork should be somewhere in the loft though not sure whereabouts it would be exactly.

 

Thanks for your time & help.

[guzzleguts]

Hi rufus

 

Its up to you the CPR 31.14 is what i was recommended by people on here that have helped me, the CPR 18 is ok to send, but i think the 31.14 covers it better and is what most people send now.

 

If you do some reading on the subject you will be able to make a better decision on this, just type what your looking for in the search engine at the top of every page.

 

Good luck

 

GG

[r&b]

as i understand it, 31.14 requests are limited to disclosure of that which is stated in the POC, whereas a CPR 18 is asking for info to clarify further matters:

CPR18:

PART 18 - FURTHER INFORMATION - Ministry of Justice

CPR31:

PART 31 - DISCLOSURE AND INSPECTION OF DOCUMENTS - Ministry of Justice

 

as this is regarding a CC and an O/draft this will be regarding regulated agmts.

get all the paperwork u have asap you can then evaluate where you are and any responses you get from them.

keep a very close eye on your timeframes for your defence too. 33 days (28 + 5 for service) after the date on the claim form is the very latest, which i think equates to 23rd Sep does it not?

also u may wish to give them 7 days to respond to your disclosure requests due to the time constraints for your defence, bearing in mind you will probably have to send them reminders!!!!

 

added: IGNM explains the CPR18/31 issue a little post 18 here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/207392-hfc-restons-sleepingdog.html

Edited September 3, 2009 by r&b
added:

[guzzleguts]

Well done R&B, much better explained than i could do.

 

Thanks

 

GG

[aguycalledrufus]

I have got a reply to the SAR sent to RBS.

 

RBS are asking for asking for proof of identity by way of my signature.

 

I didnt sign the SAR as per advice given on here, what should I do now?

 

Rufus.

 

Edited September 17, 2009 by aguycalledrufus

[guzzleguts]

Hi rufus

 

I spoke with a lady yesterday from RBS about the same thing, she identified me over the phone, i normally wouldn't recommend speaking to them over the phone but it is the quick way.

 

GG

[aguycalledrufus]

Hi Guzzleguts,

 

Do you have a number for someone at RBS by any chance, or should I just phone my local branch?

 

Cheers,

Rufus.

[guzzleguts]

I haven't got a number they rang me, but im sure if you ring the head office in southend on sea essex, they will be able to help. Thats where my call came from.

 

GG

[aguycalledrufus]

The 31.14 request was posted to the Solicitors on 8/9/09 but I've not had a reply yet.

 

My final date for submitting a defence online is on 23/09 so I dont think that I am going to get a reply in time.

 

Do I need to submit my defence now before the 5+28 day deadline, and do I submit an "embarrassed defence"? - all I've to work from is a vague POC.

[guzzleguts]

Hi rufus file the embarrassed defence on time, making sure you state in the defence that they havent complied with your CPR request.

 

Have you got a template of the embarrassed defence?

 

GG

[aguycalledrufus]

Hi GG,

 

Thanks for helping me, I know it takes up your time & energies but I really do appreciate your help.

 

I couldnt find an Embarrassed Template, but have just been looking at this post - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2148157.html

 

Thanks,

Rufus

[guzzleguts]

Hi rufus

 

I can not view that thread for some reason but there are plenty of examples of holding/embarrassed defences around, the only thing you have to do is taylor them to suit your case.

 

The POC's on your claim form are very poor, they do not even state they have served you a DN, without a valid DN this is not going very far IMO.

 

So in your holding defence make sure you state that you have have requested the info from the claimant via a CPR request and they havent compied, so without no documents the defendant is embarrassed.

 

Here are some snipits of an embarrassed defence,try to taylor it to fit your case.

 

In the xxxxxxxx County Court

Claim number

 

 

 

 

Between

 

 

xxxxxxxxxxx- Claimant

 

and

 

 

xxxxxxxxxxxx- Defendant

 

 

 

Defence

 

1. I xxxxxxxxx of xxxxxxxxxxxxx am the defendant in this action and make the following statement as my defence to the claim made by xxxxxxxxxxxx

 

2. The Defendant is embarrassed in pleading to the Particulars of Claim as it stands at present, inter alia: -

 

3. The claimants' particulars of claims disclose no legal cause of action and they are embarrassing to the defendant as the claimant's statement of case is insufficiently particularised and does not comply or even attempt to comply with CPR part 16. In this regard I wish to draw the courts attention to the following matters;

 

a) The Particulars of Claim are vague and insufficient and do not disclose an adequate statement of facts relating to or proceeding the alleged cause of action. No particulars are offered in relation to the nature of the written agreement referred to, the method the claimant calculated any outstanding sums due,or any other matters necessary to substantiate the claimant's claim.

 

b) A copy of the purported written agreement that the claimant cites in the Particulars of Claim, and which appears to form the basis upon which these proceedings have been brought, has not been served attached to the claim form.

 

c) A copy of any evidence of both the scope and nature of any default, and proof of any amount outstanding on the alleged accounts, has not been served attached to the claim form.

 

4. Consequently, I deny all allegations on the particulars of claim and put the claimant to strict proof thereof

 

5. I respectfully request the courts permission to submit an amended defence should the claimant file a fully particularised Particulars of Claim

 

Statement of Truth

 

 

I xxxxxxxxxxx, believe the above statement to be true and factual

 

 

Signed .....................

 

Date

[guzzleguts]

And make sure you file it on time

 

GG

[guzzleguts]

Just viewed that thread you posted, Nicklea's defence is very good for your case, id alter that to suit.

 

GG

[aguycalledrufus]

The Moneyclaim website only allows 8000 characters / 122 lines for the defence....

 

Can someone check the following as soon as poss as I need to submit a defence in the next hour or two!

 

 

In the Northampton County Court

Claim number 9......

 

Between

 

Royal Bank of Scotland - Claimant

 

and

 

Rufus - Defendant

 

 

 

DEFENCE

 

 

1) The claimants particulars of claim are vague and fail to disclose any cause of action, they appear to be an abuse of the process in that they fail to deal with the basic rules of pleading in accordance with the Civil Procedure Rules.

 

2) No documents supporting the claim in the particulars have been offered nor have any dates of agreement or account numbers been stated which the defendant needs to establish what agreement it is that this action is based upon and so the claimant's claim appears without merit.

 

3) As a result, the claim as pleaded does not contain sufficient particulars to permit me to file a properly particularised and pleaded defence. I have made a request for disclosure, pursuant to Part 31 of the Civil Procedure Rules, to the Claimant to allow me to properly respond to the claim. The Claimant has failed to respond to the Part 31 request.

 

4) It is Not admitted that I signed any agreement with Royal Bank of Scotland. If, which is not admitted, such an agreement exists the precise terms and date of any such agreement are not admitted. I do not have in my possession any such agreement and am not therefore able to comment thereon. The Claimant is put to strict proof as to the date and terms of such agreement.

 

5) It is averred that if any agreement did exist that the aforesaid agreement would be a regulated agreement within the terms of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 ("the Act"). It is not admitted that any alleged Agreement is enforceable within the terms of the Act. As I do not have a copy of the said agreement the Claimant is put to strict proof that the aforesaid agreement was properly executed and has been enforceable at all times since its’ inception.

 

6. Further and in the alternative it is not admitted that the sums claimed are lawfully owing. The Claimant is put to strict proof as to how the sum claimed has been calculated and as to how it is asserted that the sum claimed is contractually owing.

 

7. Further and in any event in view of the failure to comply with the CPR Part 31 request it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to costs as claimed.

 

8. Without admission that any cause of action is shown by the Claimant it is denied that I am indebted to the Claimant as alleged or at all.

 

I respectively ask for a stay in proceedings until such time the claimant complies with my requests outlined in paragraph 3 above or until the court orders its compliance with the same. I will then be in a position to file a fully particularised defence and counterclaim, and will seek the courts permission to amend my statement of case accordingly.

Statement of Truth

I believe that the facts stated in this defence are true.

 

Signed

 

Rufus

Defendant

 

 

.... should I add to this that I have never received a Default Notice

 

and should I also submit a CPR18 to RBS request proof?

Edited September 22, 2009 by aguycalledrufus
Letter Amended

[guzzleguts]

CPR18 is for info on the poc the poc states very little so not worth it IMO.

 

I think the DN part is covered in para 2, no need to state that you have never received the DN at this stage.

 

GG

[guzzleguts]

What about at the bottom put something like:

 

I respectively ask for a stay in proceedings until such time the claimant complies with my requests outlined in paragraph 2 above or until the court orders its complience with the same. I will then be in a position to file a fully particularised defence and counterclaim and will seek the courts permission to amend my statement of case accordingly.

[guzzleguts]

Sorry that should be outlined in para 3

[aguycalledrufus]

Thanks GG.

[r&b]

CPR18 is for info on the poc the poc states very little so not worth it IMO.

 

I think the DN part is covered in para 2, no need to state that you have never received the DN at this stage.

 

GG

 

 

CPR18 is for further info and as this will undoubtedly be fast track i believe this is valid if necessary.

 

regarding the SAR, send them a letter back to the effect that they have seen fit to send sensitive documentation, including a court claim to yourself at that address so on what grounds do they believe that your identity is in question? you deem their behaviour to be a tactic to endeavour to dodge their responsibilties under the Data Protection Act and remind them that the 40 days started from them receieving your initial request, not when they have finished their feeble attempts of pettiness and should they persist, they will leave u no option but to report their behaviour to the relevant authorities. or as a gesture of good will, you can always sign in an ususual way if u feel the need. make sure they have all account details so u get all u need.

 

make sure your defence is in on time.