How Much! You're 'aving A Laugh!Let's Go To Court.

[middenmess]

Briefly continuing from my other Halifax thread...

 

Wrote requesting repayment of unlawful charges +8% simple interest within 14 days--ignored.

 

Wrote again and now requesting contractual interest. [Extra £1K]

 

No response after 10 days so today spent ages writing letter to CEO Eric Daniels about being ignored,how much extra it will now cost Halifax,and also notifying him of their late response to CCA and how poor it was and also how they still haven't fully complied with SAR from May this year and the fact that I was happy too proceed to court.

 

Printed it to post tomorrow morning and then the phone rang...

 

Halifax Customer services!

 

Shortened version.......

 

You're requesting repayment of some charges--------Yes--are you recording this conversation?

No.

You've included the £12 charges.............................Yes

These are as recommended by the OFT....................No they're not.

Yes,they are fair and approved...............................OK then,if you'd like to write to me giving a detailed breakdown of how you arrive at this amount I'll read it.

No,we don't do that..............................................Can I ask why you take so long to reply to your customers? You are late in responding to not only to this repayment issue but are also late in dealing with my SAR and CCA requests.

We have a backlog of complaints and you wrote to the wrong address.

Should use the Pitreavie Business Park address, not to The Mound,Edinburgh.It takes another seven days or so for mail to be transferred to us here from Edinburgh.

As you are asking for this repayment it must be because you are in financial difficulties...........................................................My finances are none of your business!

It doesn't appear that way....................................I am only asking that you comply with your legal obligations.

I can't comment on that.

We will only offer you £130 back.............................Not interested in that,I am happy to proceed to court.

We will not offer any more.

Are you declining this offer?...................................Please put it in writing and I will reply in writing.I should also like to inform you that I have written to Eric Daniels your CEO detailing the way in which you have failed to address my problems and issues with Halifax.

It will only be sent here for us to deal with................................I don't wish to continue this conversation,goodbye.

 

 

So as the letter to the CEO is still with me I'll include the above conversation for his perusal together with the caller's name.

 

Is there anything else that I should include?

 

Is this their usual response to a claim for repayment of unlawful charges?

 

My claim for a slightly larger amount from Barclaycard was done and dusted very quickly and easily.

 

What will they make of the PPI claim when I make that as well !!!

[middenmess]

Quick bump to see if there are any suggestions for inclusion in the letter to the CEO or any other comments as I'm going to post the letter off today.

[landy_alert]

Hi middenmess:)

 

Just wanted to wish you well with your letter to Mr Daniels - but don't bank (pardon the pun, lol!) on getting a reply any day soon.

 

I sent him an email 3 weeks ago and then followed it up with a letter just over a week ago and as yet nothing - not an acknowledgement to my email or anything:(

 

This was re: a hardship claim and the appalling response I've received from the bank staff - 25 generic template letters over a period of 6 months before they could be bothered to send a final response enabling the FOS to finally take the complaint on. Now it's too late as we no longer fit the hardship criteria anyway - which is good of course but doesn't alter the fact that they have the audacity to fob you off when you could most do with some assistance.

 

I also drew Mr Daniel's attention to some rather unprofessional wording in the contents of my Subject Access Request whereby a member of staff referred to Mr L's suicide attempt a couple of years ago as trying to 'top himself'

 

I sincerely hope you get a reply to your letter, but sincerely doubt it - these people are seriously out of touch and don't seem to care two hoots about their customers.

 

I've also made a Serious Formal Complaint to head office - no response there either. I also reported them to the FSA - who did at least acknowledge my letter which is something I suppose and I understand they are building a dossier of 'fob-off' type letters so will be copying mine to them soon.

 

Anyway Good Luck and let us know if you get a reply!

 

Regards,

 

Landy x

[pompeyfaith]

Hiya Middenmess,

 

I am of the opinion that CEO's know that they have a serious banking crisis on there hands hence why you cant get a letter to the top of the tree.

 

This attitude does totally stink and the consumer would have more respect for them if this was not the case.

 

I too wish you well in this endeavour, but as Landy says I don't hold out much hope for you on this.

 

Regards

 

PF

[middenmess]

Hi Landy,Hi Pompeyfaith,

 

I realise that I've more chance of frying a snowflake than getting any response from them up there with their heads stuck up their kybers but at just over £1 it's an affordable exercise and will fill up my folders and give their minions something to file.

 

As they indicate no intention of returning my late charges and I have no intention of making any payments whilst I consider the account to be in dispute I would seem to have two options.

 

I can issue a claim in court for the charges or I can just wait and presumably I will eventually receive a default notice which will include the unlawful late charges.

 

Because my account has PPI I'm satisfied that the CCA is unenforceable as it is a multiple agreement and with CAG's help I will be able to deal with it if and when the occasion arises.

 

I'm tempted to work out the PPI over the last 20 years,add it to the late charges and send them a demand for a few thousand pounds.I'd also include a letter telling them that the CCA is woefully deficient and invite them to defend it in court----but on reflection I think that I'm better off waiting for them to make the running.

 

So,what would you do or recommend?

[pompeyfaith]

Hiya Middenmess,

 

I can issue a claim in court for the charges or I can just wait and presumably I will eventually receive a default notice which will include the unlawful late charges.

 

If you took them to court it will cost you dear i would think as the claim will be over the £500 so it will be fast track.

 

So I would let them take you to court, the judge would be likely to stay it pending the outcome of the OFT/ABBEY CASE.

 

Because my account has PPI I'm satisfied that the CCA is unenforceable as it is a multiple agreement and with CAG's help I will be able to deal with it if and when the occasion arises.

 

Yes plenty of experienced caggers here to guide you.

 

I'm tempted to work out the PPI over the last 20 years,add it to the late charges and send them a demand for a few thousand pounds.I'd also include a letter telling them that the CCA is woefully deficient and invite them to defend it in court----but on reflection I think that I'm better off waiting for them to make the running.

 

Yes certainly work out the PPI and send letters it keeps them on there toes !!!!!!! but yes let them take you to court and then bang in a counter claim.

 

PF

[middenmess]

Sounds like good advice-I'll make a start with PPI.

 

I've been trying to help on this thread

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/217335-robinson-way-court-proceedings.html

 

as they are due in court on the 9th Sept. do you think you could have a quick look at the PPI involvement on it?

[middenmess]

Following on from my phone conversation detailed above,I have received the offer in writing as requested....

 

The interesting bit in my view is...

 

 

plus they admit to not dealing with the SAR correctly but still seem to think that a reconstructed T & C is the way to go!

 

The letter continues for a few lines overleaf saying..''We are keen to resolve your concerns--if we can't then there's the Ombudsman---contact within 8 weeks otherwise we'll close this complaint.

 

So,any thoughts?

 

Just received the first phone call as I've missed a payment..

Can I speak to Mr.X please-----------speaking.

 

It's the Halifax can I confirm a few details for security?------Can I ask what this phone call is about please?

I can't discuss that until you've answered the security questions---------I'm afraid that as I've requested communication to be in writing only,I will not be discussing anything with you.

 

OK,Thank you.

~

I can only assume that they are new on the job!!

[pompeyfaith]

Firstly the banking code was set up by the BBA for the banks so it is bias

 

And on the £12 fees at no time did the oft say that £12 fees were fair that was just a recommendation that the financial industry agreed to and any costs they pick up administering an account i do not believe comes to £12

 

PF

[middenmess]

In common with many others it looks like I'm in for a long game of intelligent letter versus reconstructed and convoluted drivel.

 

Perhaps we should have a 'sticky' of all the various template letters they send in response to:-

 

1] Claims for repayment of charges.

 

2] CAA requests

 

3] Subject Access requests

[middenmess]

The letter [above] tells me that they subscribe to the Banking code,so as I've never read I thought I'd be better informed if I did.

 

Just read it and as far as I can see there's next to 'ugger all in it,but thought I'd share the following for any that are interested...

 

5 Charges

5.1 When you become a customer, we will give you details

of any charges for the day-to-day running of the

account you have chosen.[Giving details of a charge is not the same as justifying how they arrive at a figure for a charge]

 

Closing your account

7.6 Under normal circumstances, we will not close your

account without giving you at least 30 days’ notice.

Examples of circumstances which are not ‘normal’

include threatening or abusive behaviour towards staff.

 

7.7 We will not close your account, or threaten to do so, as

a response to a valid complaint you have made. [And guess who decides if a dispute/complaint is valid!!]

 

Data protection

11.3 We will explain to you that, under the Data Protection

Act, you have the right to see the personal records we

hold about you. [we might have the right but it doesn't state there that they will let us see it all and no mention of 'only 6 years' !!]

 

11.4 We will tell you if we record your telephone

conversations with us.[it's always 'We may record this call..' at least it is whenever I've phoned]

 

Credit reference agencies

13.5 When you open your account or apply for a card, we will

tell you when we may pass your details to credit reference

agencies and the checks we may make with them.

 

13.6 We may give information to credit reference agencies

about the personal debts you owe us if:

• you have fallen behind with your payments;

• the amount owed is not being disputed; and

• you have not made proposals we are satisfied with

for repaying your debt, following our formal demand.

 

13.7 In these cases, we will give you at least 28 days’ notice

 

14.6 In certain circumstances we may pass your debt to

another organisation or debt-collection agency. When

arranging how you will make your repayments, we will

always choose reputable firms which agree to follow

the Code.

 

14.7 In other circumstances, we may sell your debt. We will

always choose reputable firms if we do this.

[middenmess]

Dated as 3rd September and received this afternoon,9th Sept. is a letter not from HBOS CEO Mr.Daniels but from Charlotte Gurnell,Senior Operations Manager...

 

''Thank you for your recent letter.

 

We are keeen to discuss the points raised with you,and would be obliged if you would ring us on receipt of this letter.''

 

So in my picky mode..

 

Phone number is 0870 850 1292 for retail collections.

 

No points have been raised with me only by me.

 

What is that comma doing after 'raised with you?'

 

~

 

Instead of cobbling several dissassociated lines together it would have been simpler and more to the point if they had written and said..

 

Dear Mr.X

 

Hiss off and stop bothering us.

~

 

Mind you I suppose I could phone retail collections to discuss several of the finer points that I raised in my letter to the CEO with a knowledgeable and articulate agent whose enunciation of our fine tounge will be a symphony of pleasure to listen to over the phone--or I could just treat this letter with the contempt that it deserves.

 

It's a tough call.

 

 

 

[middenmess]

UPDATE.

 

Received two letters this morning requesting the payments that I have withheld after putting the account into dispute.

 

As these were quite polite and well constructed letters I'd like to think that they are in response to my request for all communication to be in writing which I included in my dispute letter although they are a little at odds with the letter I received yesterday [posted on my other thread at

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/211244-25-days-late-3-a.html

 

which said we will not collect/we will collect monies owed.

 

Then this evening I received a telephone call from Halifax to discuss my complaint.

 

I spoke with a very pleasant gentleman who after a chat offered to repay all of the charges minus two that I had included from 2002 but including the two recently applied.

 

Flat but polite refusal to include compound interest but offered simple at 24% + 8% [if I heard it all correctly!] this would mean that my original request for repayment at 8% simple for total of £600+ would be exceeded by £400.

As they had failed to respond to request for refund +8% I had then demanded refund + contractual for total of £1600+ so repayment of £1000 would seem to be very acceptable but it's a no choice option as it is immediately refunded back against my outstanding balance [now halved]

 

I did ask for a cheque but this was just not on the menu!

 

I asked why all the previous letters and responses had been sent and the honest reply was that it was a three stage process.

 

You ask and they more or less turn it down out of hand with an offer only to refund the difference between the old charge and the indicated fairer charge of £12 which apparently many people accept.

 

Stage 2 is to wait and see what you write and demand and they will then usually deal with your complaint and settle as ''it's cheaper/more viable than paying for the FOS investigation''

 

Stage 3 is the complaint to the FOS.

 

---------

 

Opinions please as I'm in a quandry about this 'refund' as I'm 99% sure that my agreement is unenforceable-see other thread-- but this refund would bring this debt down to a manageable sum.

[noomill060]

They charge compound interest on the money they have scammed out of you, so therefore you should reject ANY offer which is based on simple interest.

[pompeyfaith]

well they obviously dont like the FOS and im not surprised going by there FOS complaints data.

 

So give it to the FOS and let them pay a fee.

 

PF

[middenmess]

Hi noomill,

 

''but it's a no choice option as it is immediately refunded back against my outstanding balance''

I asked if they were going to put the offer in writing as a full and final settlement for me to agree to but they said no that wouldn't be necessary?

 

If it's not a 'full and final' then I presume that I can still pursue it?

 

I did ask for the refund to be detailed in writing to which they agreed.

 

I was told that the money would show immediately in my card account online but when I checked an hour after the call it wasn't showing but my 'available credit' was £1500--on an up to the limit account?

 

I'll check again alter and I'll also post up the details when/if? I receive the letter.

[middenmess]

Just over £1k now showing as credited against my account but no letter received yet .

[vint1954]

A freebee then

[middenmess]

A freebee then

 

Hi Vint--:DBe nice to think so--it is shown as a charges refund and an interest refund though.

 

Usually letters from Halifax are pretty prompt--well the ones requesting money are;)

 

Depending on the wording of it will dictate what I do next,so I'll be awaiting their explanatory letter with bated breath.

 

Although it's been credited on my online statement,the account is still showing as payments being overdue--if a late charge is then applied I will start ticking!!

[sillygirl1]

Now remind them that all charges seem to eb reduced to £5.00 so you now want the remainder.... £7.00 if they are quoting £13 as (fair).

[middenmess]

Now remind them that all charges seem to eb reduced to £5.00 so you now want the remainder.... £7.00 if they are quoting £13 as (fair).

 

 

They wouldn't entertain two late charges from 2002--'over the 6 year time limit' but paid back all of those from then to date.

 

This would suggest that by paying them back in their entirety that they concede that there are no costs involved whatsoever when applying charges to one's account.

 

It's accepted that they do this as it avoids them having to qualify any charge applied to one's account I presume.

[middenmess]

As above,just over £1k credited back into account as a no choice option.

 

Today phone call saying you are behind with payments and asking for just over £100 as minimum payment.

 

Online account says minimum payment of £200+

 

Was informed that the repayment of £1k into my account is not regarded as a payment and that a/c is still in arrears.

 

Explained that those payments due were based on the total of the account before the unlawful charges were refunded and that the next statement that they send me should have all the neccessary adjustments on it and show a relevant sum due.

 

Also explained that I had put the account into dispute because of unsatisfactory response to CCA request and that all communication should be in writing.

 

Operative spent several minutes reading my 'file' and then agreed to remove phone number from file----Mmmm,we'll see.

 

Anyway,now that they've hissed me off again,what is the best way to demand that they return the repaid unlawful charges and interest back to me via a bank transfer or cheque rather than the 'no option' recrediting of my account.

 

I know it's my money and that I have a right for it to be paid directly to me but is there any law or precedent that I can quote other than pointing out that nowhere in their T & C's does it state that the repayment of unlawful charges have to go back as a credit to an account.

 

Was hoping for a few days to do other things but looks like I'll be spending them preparing a PPI claim now to keep them on their toes!

[vint1954]

Think the £5 is for bank account overdraft fees only.

[middenmess]

Think the £5 is for bank account overdraft fees only.

 

 

 

???????????????????????:-?:-?:-????????????????????????

 

For another thread?

[vint1954]

Post #20