False details on Merseyrail - been very stupid!

[veryfoolish]

OK, this is not too dissimilar to other threads, but it might have points of interest to the connoisseur. I promise to share the outcome too

 

I managed to do something spectacularly stupid on a Merseyrail train a few weeks ago. I was sitting there reading the paper and, as it turned out, keeping myself steady by holding my left foot against the edge of the opposite seat. I have absolutely no memory of actually putting my foot there, but I doubt that matters. I'm not normally a "feet on seats" person - I'm too polite and, frankly, a bit too short - but I doubt that matters at all.

 

Still, it was an offence against the byelaws, and when I was challenged by the railway policeman (sorry, don't know the technical term - high visibility jacket, camera) I expected to have to pay a fine of some kind. But apparently Merseyrail are the only transport authority to prosecute in these circumstances, so I found myself being cautioned and questioned and heaven knows what else, because at this point I completely lost it...

 

What happened, happened because

 

• I have a major major fear of getting a criminal record (see later for why).
  
• I was sitting there reading the paper and seconds later being cautioned. I possibly wasn't thinking entirely clearly.
  
• I have genuinely never been spoken to by a policeman before in my entire 45 year life!
  

Somehow I decided that it would be a good move to lie about my details.

 

This deception was immediately discovered (they check against some database) and the legal system has suddenly become a major part of my future. I told them the correct details, was polite and co-operative, but the damage is obviously already done.

 

I've been summonsed to the magistrates' court for the original offence and for providing false details to an authorised person. I'm sure the fines and costs will be vast, but I can cope with that.

 

But it's the criminal record that is going to cause so many problems for me. What that is about is that I'm trying for a change of career - to go into caring or nursing, or something more socially useful than what I've done in the past. All has been progressing well - courses are set up, voluntary work is being done (and hugely enjoyed - I was on my way to help on a hospital ward at the time of the offences) and a blot of dishonesty on my character could well wreck all of that.

 

Anyway, how do you all see this panning out?

[Stigy]

Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with prosecuting someone on their first 'feet on seats' offence unless they are clearly soiling the seats or they fail the attitude test, but, Merseyrail seem have a bee in their bonnet about this one as we've seen in the press before. Nevertheless, it is enforceable under railway Byelaws (it's not just Merseyrail, I've reported people for this offence before and I work further saaaaaf). Enough of that though, as you appear not to have been summonsed for that.

 

It was rather silly to give false details, as you have committed a further offence by doing so, even though you 'owned up' when found out. (It's been committed as soon as incorrect details have been given I'm afraid!). If I were you I'd call the prosecutions dept. at Merseyrail asap and offer an out of court settlement....If it's not too late. This way you'll get away without the possibility of a conviction.

 

By the way, I believe Merseyrail employ their own 'security staff' who wear said headcams.

[SRPO]

Deleted.

Edited September 23, 2009 by SRPO

[veryfoolish]

Stigy and SRPO,

 

Thank you for both of your replies.

 

Stigy: There is still time to do something about it, my court appearance is scheduled for mid September.

 

No, fortunately it was a dry day and my shoes were clean and shiny However, I suspect I failed all possible attitude tests by lying. It is quite possible that no action would have been taken for this first offence if I had only been honest. As it is, I have been summonsed for both offences and only have myself to blame.

 

SRPO: Thank you for the advice. I have drafted a letter and will review it tomorrow before posting it. I think I read in some other thread that it can be a good idea to send a copy of this to the court. Is that your opinion, and if so, to whom should I address it?

 

I presume from what you say that the courts actually like people who try to settle out of court. I would not have realised this by myself!

 

If it does come to court proceedings, then do the courts prefer the defendant to actually attend, or is it better to plead guilty by post? My inclination would be to show that I appreciate the seriousness of the situation by being there in person.

[Old-CodJA]

It is always better to defer to the authority of the Court by turning up and if you are pleading guilty, saying sorry in person.

 

I have one question that does not appear to have been mentioned in the thread so far. Did you have a valid ticket for your whole journey at the time you were spoken to?

[veryfoolish]

It is always better to defer to the authority of the Court by turning up and if you are pleading guilty, saying sorry in person.

 

I have one question that does not appear to have been mentioned in the thread so far. Did you have a valid ticket for your whole journey at the time you were spoken to?

 

Oh yes - they did ask to see it. For the record I am not otherwise known to the railway police, or any others. It was possibly my pride in having a clean enhanced CRB that made me panic at the thought of losing it.

[Ruprecht]

The country is quite mad these days isn't it.

 

I might be tempted to plead not guilty by reason of temporary insanity and request a jury trial.

 

But then I am temporary insane a lot LOL!! :-P

[veryfoolish]

The country is quite mad these days isn't it.

 

I might be tempted to plead not guilty by reason of temporary insanity and request a jury trial.

 

But then I am temporary insane a lot LOL!! :-P

 

Oh, I don't know. I have no problem with people being fined for putting their feet on the seats, even if it was (as I would claim in my case) more a result of carelessness than design. Telling lies to authority is unquestionably wrong though, and I'm not at all surprised that I'm being prosecuted.

 

For anyone interested in my situation, I wrote to the prosecutors a couple of weeks ago, but have not received any reply. It has been an extremely unpleasant fortnight, because it is becoming fairly clear that if I do get a criminal record then my nursing career is most probably over before it began (it would certainly be over if I was interested in Midwifery or Child Nursing).

 

I've been in touch with the local CAB but they don't really deal in criminal cases much. They want to make a 'social policy' issue of it - ie. campaign for all the people in a similar situation. The local MP is Louise Ellman, who is currently chair of the Transport Select Committee and there is talk of getting her involved. But I can't say I'm exactly happy with my future being treated as a political or social football.

 

I will phone the prosecutors tomorrow or, if I completely fall apart in the meantime (quite likely), will ask for the CAB to call on my behalf, minus the threats. I really wouldn't recommend this situation to anyone.

[Old-CodJA]

Like the others, I don't condone putting feet on seats and welcome action to deal with all those mildly anti-social actions that might detract from the travelling experience for everyone else, but as someone involved in this line of work daily, I also think that a measure of commonsense needs to be applied in some circumstances.

 

The advice given by SRPO & Stigy is spot on and if you have not received a reply more than two weeks after trying to resolve the case out of Court, it wouldn't hurt to turn the pressure up a little yourself.

 

I would write again, politely asking if your offer to settle this matter out of Court has been considered and request an early response from the Prosecutions Manager.

 

As SRPO said, state that you are extremely sorry for your totally uncharacteristic action and that you recognise that you should not have put your foot on the seat even though it was a sub-concious action. State that your failure to give the correct details initially was a totally irrational response given on the spur of the moment, which you regret profoundly and ask that you be allowed to make recompense in order to preserve your good name.

 

Offer to pay the costs that have been incurred by the rail company in dealing with this matter and make very clear that you fear that a conviction for what is a first offence of any kind, might have a wholly disproportionate effect on your future career. Make sure that you state that you are constantly worrying about the outcome and the uncertainty of not knowing whether your offer has been considered is having an adverse effect on your daily well-being.

 

Having put all that together, I suggest that you copy the letter to the Legal Advisor at the Court and ask for it to be added to the file for action in your case.

 

Make sure that you show the fact that it has been copied to the Court in the letter that you send to the Prosecutor's office

 

Good Luck.

[veryfoolish]

 

I would write again, politely asking if your offer to settle this matter out of Court has been considered and request an early response from the Prosecutions Manager.

 

As SRPO said, state that you are extremely sorry for your totally uncharacteristic action and that you recognise that you should not have put your foot on the seat even though it was a sub-concious action. State that your failure to give the correct details initially was a totally irrational response given on the spur of the moment, which you regret profoundly and ask that you be allowed to make recompense in order to preserve your good name.

 

Offer to pay the costs that have been incurred by the rail company in dealing with this matter and make very clear that you fear that a conviction for what is a first offence of any kind, might have a wholly disproportionate effect on your future career. Make sure that you state that you are constantly worrying about the outcome and the uncertainty of not knowing whether your offer has been considered is having an adverse effect on your daily well-being.

 

Having put all that together, I suggest that you copy the letter to the Legal Advisor at the Court and ask for it to be added to the file for action in your case.

 

Make sure that you show the fact that it has been copied to the Court in the letter that you send to the Prosecutor's office

 

Thank you, Old-CodJA, for your further thoughts on this. All of the ideas that I've highlighted in bold were contained in my original letter (as a consequence, of course, of your previous advice!). I didn't copy that to the Court, which was perhaps a mistake.

 

I'm now running out of time - the court case is on September 17th. I haven't yet returned the plea statement but that needs to go off soon.

 

The constant worry is sadly perfectly true. I've just started an access course which is a) quite tough but b) supposed to get me onto a nursing degree. But not only is it difficult to concentrate (not actually too much of a problem in Week 1) but it is difficult to take it seriously, because part of me is certain I won't be there for Week 3. This is an unusual feeling for me, because if there is one defining characteristic of my personality, it is that I take everything seriously!

 

I will write to the prosecutor (and Court) in the way that you advise. To make the situation more comic the prosecutor's address is a Freepost one, which I suspect means the letter takes longer to get there, and you can't send it recorded!

[veryfoolish]

Well, this seems to have been resolved.

 

I wrote to Merseyrail on Wednesday and copied the letter (along with my previous letter) to the Legal Adviser at the Magistrates' Court. I today received a reply from the Case Management Supervisor saying that Merseyrail had withdrawn the case.

 

No mention is made of a penalty or administration charge. I will phone Merseyrail on Monday and will at least offer some donation to charity as an expression of my gratitude. (I know they collect for a Downs Syndrome charity at the moment, or perhaps they have their own). I do feel extremely grateful for their decision - it will make an enormous practical difference to my life.

 

I am also extremely grateful for all the advice given here. I think it did make a considerable difference, both in terms of having someone to talk to, and in terms of receiving advice based on experience. I will also be making a donation to keep this site running!

 

I am more aware than ever that I have been given a second chance. Although not premeditated, it is an inescapable fact that I did act badly. For instance, at the time, I genuinely thought I was being clever in providing false details. This must mean that I'm not as nice as I thought I was! It also definitely means that any compassion shown by Merseyrail is strictly speaking unwarranted - that is, they have shown me a degree of mercy that I may not actually deserve. I will try and learn a lesson from that.

 

Thank you again for all your help and kind words.

[Ruprecht]

Glad things worked out for you in the end.

 

You can have a sigh of relief, relax and put your feet up now!

[veryfoolish]

Glad things worked out for you in the end.

 

You can have a sigh of relief, relax and put your feet up now!

 

Thank you. It is a relief, but instead of relaxing I took a long walk to calm myself down. Then I took another one.

 

This has been a real scare. It is not until you are about to lose it, that you fully realise the value of not having a criminal record. Thank you all once again.

[Old-CodJA]

Yes, I'm really pleased that things worked out OK too