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Halifax credit card - The ongoing story


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I have a Halifax Credit Card which as usual increases every month due to charges as i am struggling to make payments required on it. I have seen and heard the adverts for if you took the card out before 2007 the agrement may be unenforceable. What I would like to know is how is this possible and if it is how do i go about finding out..

 

Any help and advice would be appreciated....

 

Read around the forums and learn as much as you can from other people's experiences,then start up your own thread and ask any questions that you will then have.

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Thanks will do.....:-)

Bresh,

 

You will need to start your own thread.

 

Here is the first letter.

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

With reference to the alleged debt to your company, this letter is a formal request of true copy of a signed and dated credit agreement for the above account number, under the terms and conditions of section 78(1) of the CCA act 1974. I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £1.00

 

I expect you to comply fully and properly with this request, within the statutory time limit.

I enclose a postal order no xxxxxxxxxxxxxx in the sum of £1.00, which is the statutory fee. Note that these funds are not to be used for any other purpose.

 

If you are unable to comply fully and properly with this request, you should confirm this in writing at the earliest opportunity, and certainly within the statutory time limit for compliance, and return the fee.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully

 

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Hello all, just had my cca response from halifax. Basically they have sent me a 'reconstituted' :lol: version of the agreement.

 

Heres the letter, let me know if you would like to see the 'reconstituted' version. I love how they put that 'this' version of the agreement complies with the requirements of the cca :lol:!

 

I also should note that theres not a signature or date on any of the drivel they have provided.

 

frombank.jpg

 

So whats my next step ? Account in dispute ? Ask them again for a copy of the original signed agreement (if there is one) ?

 

Thanks again

Edited by t.a.c
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I am happy to find this thread. I have received the same letter. What a load of rubbish. I can't believe that they have the balls to invent this stuff!

 

I have actually recieved two 'reconstituted' agreements. One has the original address where the card set up, and the other is a different (although the same) agreement with my new address and different interest figures. Of course I did not get a new agreement at this new address to sign. The entire this is an invention.

 

I have three cards which I am challenging though a company who does this (£295 per card - money back if no claim possible). The 'agreement' has been sent to the solicitors today. I am told it will take a month until it is checked out, but I am assuming it is totally illegal.

 

Anyone with any new please post and I will as soon as I have some news.

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It gets checked out by a lawyer and then if they find they can pursue it (usual they say) they take it to court on no win no fee, and they claim costs against the cc company. no further charges to me. If they look over the contract and the document is enforcable, so they cannot pursue it, I get back my £295. They say they can do this because of the high rate of unenforcable contracts. It is a regulated registered company and it was recommended by my uncle-in-law who is an accountant.

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It is a regulated registered company and it was recommended by my uncle-in-law who is an accountant.

 

Whilst obviously your choice to pay out c.£900 an alternative might have been to invest £10 for a SAR and £1 for a CCA request and a post on here for many experienced caggers to give advise as to whether you have a 'claim'.

 

You could then have a choice as to how you would proceed.

 

The only way that you will find out if they are enforceable is by a court not by what your claims agent decides.

 

At £295 a throw I'm not surprised to read

 

''if they find they can pursue it (usual they say) they take it to court on no win no fee, and they claim costs against the cc company. no further charges to me.''

 

Who pays all the costs if the court finds your agreements enforceable?

 

 

 

PS. What's an 'uncle-in-law'?

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you ever heard of a cc company going to court and winning on a challenge to the enforcibility of the contract? I do not think it has happened. My understanding is that if they are in breach of the law it is quite obvious. If the contract is indefensible, or if the don't have the signed contract it is over.

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Just looked at the agreement again... there is a Conditional Fee Agreement which the solicitor will send me if the case is accepted. It includes insurance, which they will pay for, to cover the cc companies legal costs if we lose. ie, no further cost to me no matter what.

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You could edit to your own situation and try this.

 

xxxxxx 2009.

Dear xxxxxxxxx,

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

Re account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I write regarding recent communication regarding the above account.

Further to my request under the above act, your attention is drawn to the fact that this account is now subject to a serious dispute. On xxxxxxxx, by recorded delivery, I requested that you supply me a copy of the executed credit agreement covering this account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78, a copy of this request is enclosed. To date you have failed to comply with my request.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Without production of the said agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to you, nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I have to date only received terms and conditions from yourselves.

Contrary to your assertion, xxxxxxxx have not complied with the terms of CCA 1974 s78. The documents that you have supplied, do not comply with your duties to supply a “True Copy” of any agreement you claim to have been signed by me.

In a recent letter from the enforcement department of the OFT, the text below was quoted, explaining what is required.

“The copy of the executed agreement need not be an exact copy but it must be a ‘true copy’ and not some reconstruction of what the original might have been and it must contain the same terms as the original. Where the terms have been varied as provided for within the agreement, the copy of the original agreement must be accompanied by a document setting out the current terms, as varied. Certain details may be omitted from the original agreement eg the signature but the debtor must be in no doubt as to the true nature of his obligations under the loan.

 

Should no original agreement be in existence it is very hard to say that the copy the creditor offers to the debtor is, in fact, a true copy as there would be no original with which to compare it. In our view the onus of proof would be on the creditor to show that the copy is a true one and where none existed he may have difficulty discharging this. Neither should creditors suggest that a consumer has signed a credit agreement where they are unable to provide evidence to support this — to do so is likely to be a misleading action under Regulation 5 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (the CPRs) and would also constitute an unfair or improper business practice.”

 

I also refer you to the information below.

1. A valid credit agreement must contain certain terms within the signature document (s.60(1)(2) CCA 1974). These core terms are the credit limit, repayment terms and the rate of interest (SI 1983/1553 (6 Signing of agreement) which states that the prescribed terms must be within the signature document. (Column 2 schedule 6). s.61(1)(a) states the agreement must contain all the prescribed terms and be signed by both the debtor and on behalf of the creditor.

 

 

2. Further, s.127(3) CCA 1974 makes the account unenforceable if it is not in the proper form and content or improperly executed.

 

In Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd (2007) it was stated “In my judgment the objective of Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties … and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under s.61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of section 127(3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself: they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest mis-stated. As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them. On the other hand, they are basic provisions, and the only question for the court is whether they are, on a true construction, included in the agreement”.

 

2. The need for prescribed terms to be contained in the credit agreement is confirmed by the Author of the CCA1974 act, I quote ““As the draftsman of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 I would like to thank Dr Richard Lawson for his interesting and well-argued article (30 August 2003) on Wilson v First County Trust Ltd [2003] UKHL 40, [2003] 4 All ER 97.

 

Dr Lawson may be interested to know that I included the provision in question (section 127(3)) entirely on my own initiative. It seemed right to me that if the creditor company couldn’t be bothered to ensure that all the prescribed particulars were accurately included in the credit agreement it deserved to find it unenforceable, and that the court should not have power to relieve it from this penalty. Nobody queried this, and it went through Parliament without debate. I’m glad the House of Lords has now vindicated my reasoning and confirmed that nobody’s human rights were infringed.” - 167 Justice of the Peace (2003) 773.”

I am now granting to you a further 7 days to produce a copy of an executable agreement. After that I will consider that the above matter is closed and that you will no longer pursue the alleged debt. If you are insisting that the non enforceable document, that you have supplied, is the only alleged agreement in your possession, then I would suggest that the best course of action would be to immediately set the balance of the above account number to zero.

I look forward to your response.

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Hello all, just had my cca response from halifax. Basically they have sent me a 'reconstituted' :lol: version of the agreement.

 

Heres the letter, let me know if you would like to see the 'reconstituted' version. I love how they put that 'this' version of the agreement complies with the requirements of the cca :lol:!

 

I also should note that theres not a signature or date on any of the drivel they have provided.

 

frombank.jpg

 

So whats my next step ? Account in dispute ? Ask them again for a copy of the original signed agreement (if there is one) ?

 

Thanks again

Can you post the agreement

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Hi vint1954, thanks for dropping in :)

 

There are actually two agreements enclosed with the letter, one has the address of where i lived when i first got the card the parties of this agreement being myself and halifax plc.

 

The other being of my new address the parties of which are bank of scotland and myself.

 

Ill scan both agreements and put them into their own album on photobucket and pop a link here in 10 minutes or so.

 

Thanks again :D

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Hi vint1954, thanks for dropping in :)

 

There are actually two agreements enclosed with the letter, one has the address of where i lived when i first got the card the parties of this agreement being myself and halifax plc.

 

The other being of my new address the parties of which are bank of scotland and myself.

 

Ill scan both agreements and put them into their own album on photobucket and pop a link here in 10 minutes or so.

 

Thanks again :D

OK,

 

The BOS agreement is likely to be one they made earlier from sticky back plastic. Just current t&C's dressed to look like an agreement.

 

I have several that I made myself from Corn Flake boxes.

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The BOS agreement is likely to be one they made earlier from sticky back plastic. Just current t&C's dressed to look like an agreement.

 

I have several that I made myself from Corn Flake boxes.

:lol::lol:

 

 

Halifax agreement

 

Halifax agreement pictures by tac_82 - Photobucket

 

Bank of scotland agreement

 

Bank of scotland agreement pictures by tac_82 - Photobucket

 

 

Thanks again

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tac

 

BOS ''agreement'' first uploaded image...

 

57jf98wr31.jpg

 

Figures are incorrect as they appear to be calculated as a loan--12 equal monthly instalments--and if calculated from start of agreement then they give you 5 months interest free promotional period,but they have calculated the interest on 12 months at 23.95%.

 

Have you PPI as well as there is no allowance in the above for that.

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Hi Middenmess

 

I do belive i have ppi, i couldn't work out the BOS agreement either seemed total nonsense to be honest. I never signed for a new agreement anyway so im not sure where they have pulled that from.

 

I do know however that my original agreement dated 2003 and the two i have recieved in responce to my cca request all differ greatly. For instance on my original agreement it states that i should pay charges of £20 for late payments etc.. But on the 'new' halifax agreement it states i should pay £25 for those same charges and in the BOS agreement it's the allowed £12 charge amount.

 

I think they copied your method Vint and threw them together this morning round the breakfast table:D

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tac

 

BOS ''agreement'' first uploaded image...

 

57jf98wr31.jpg

 

Figures are incorrect as they appear to be calculated as a loan--12 equal monthly instalments--and if calculated from start of agreement then they give you 5 months interest free promotional period,but they have calculated the interest on 12 months at 23.95%.

 

Have you PPI as well as there is no allowance in the above for that.

This is just an illustration that is a recent addition.

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This is a clear attempt to misslead. You need to report them to TS & OFT.

 

Both agreements unenforcable obviously as they are reconstructed.

 

Check and send this.

 

xxxxxx 2009.

Dear xxxxxxxxx,

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

Re account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I write regarding recent communication regarding the above account.

Further to my request under the above act, your attention is drawn to the fact that this account is now subject to a serious dispute. On xxxxxxxx, by recorded delivery, I requested that you supply me a copy of the executed credit agreement covering this account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78, a copy of this request is enclosed. To date you have failed to comply with my request, supplying only reconstructed terms and conditions. Without production of the said agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to you, nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I have to date only received terms and conditions from yourselves.

Contrary to your assertion, xxxxxxxx have not complied with the terms of CCA 1974 s78. The documents that you have supplied, do not comply with your duties to supply a “True Copy” of any agreement you claim to have been signed by me.

In a recent letter from the enforcement department of the OFT, the text below was quoted, explaining what is required.

“The copy of the executed agreement need not be an exact copy but it must be a ‘true copy’ and not some reconstruction of what the original might have been and it must contain the same terms as the original. Where the terms have been varied as provided for within the agreement, the copy of the original agreement must be accompanied by a document setting out the current terms, as varied. Certain details may be omitted from the original agreement eg the signature but the debtor must be in no doubt as to the true nature of his obligations under the loan.

 

Should no original agreement be in existence it is very hard to say that the copy the creditor offers to the debtor is, in fact, a true copy as there would be no original with which to compare it. In our view the onus of proof would be on the creditor to show that the copy is a true one and where none existed he may have difficulty discharging this. Neither should creditors suggest that a consumer has signed a credit agreement where they are unable to provide evidence to support this — to do so is likely to be a misleading action under Regulation 5 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (the CPRs) and would also constitute an unfair or improper business practice.”

 

I also refer you to the information below.

1. A valid credit agreement must contain certain terms within the signature document (s.60(1)(2) CCA 1974). These core terms are the credit limit, repayment terms and the rate of interest (SI 1983/1553 (6 Signing of agreement) which states that the prescribed terms must be within the signature document. (Column 2 schedule 6). s.61(1)(a) states the agreement must contain all the prescribed terms and be signed by both the debtor and on behalf of the creditor.

 

 

2. Further, s.127(3) CCA 1974 makes the account unenforceable if it is not in the proper form and content or improperly executed.

 

In Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd (2007) it was stated “In my judgment the objective of Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties … and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under s.61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of section 127(3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself: they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest mis-stated. As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them. On the other hand, they are basic provisions, and the only question for the court is whether they are, on a true construction, included in the agreement”.

 

2. The need for prescribed terms to be contained in the credit agreement is confirmed by the Author of the CCA1974 act, I quote ““As the draftsman of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 I would like to thank Dr Richard Lawson for his interesting and well-argued article (30 August 2003) on Wilson v First County Trust Ltd [2003] UKHL 40, [2003] 4 All ER 97.

 

Dr Lawson may be interested to know that I included the provision in question (section 127(3)) entirely on my own initiative. It seemed right to me that if the creditor company couldn’t be bothered to ensure that all the prescribed particulars were accurately included in the credit agreement it deserved to find it unenforceable, and that the court should not have power to relieve it from this penalty. Nobody queried this, and it went through Parliament without debate. I’m glad the House of Lords has now vindicated my reasoning and confirmed that nobody’s human rights were infringed.” - 167 Justice of the Peace (2003) 773.”

I am now granting to you a further 7 days to produce a copy of an executable agreement. After that I will consider that the above matter is closed and that you will no longer pursue the alleged debt. If you are insisting that the non enforceable document, that you have supplied, is the only alleged agreement in your possession, then I would suggest that the best course of action would be to immediately set the balance of the above account number to zero.

I look forward to your response.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hello, hope you're all well!

 

The account in dispute letter was delivered and signed for on the 22/09/09 and up to now i'm still awaiting a reply from Halifax.

 

Does anyone know their typical or most likely response to this letter?

 

Also could you please tell me what my course of action should be if i dont receive a response by the end of next week?

 

If and when i receive a reply from them i'll post it here, ill have a gander through the forum now and see if i can workout what their next move may be.

 

Thanks again

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Well still no reply to my account in dispute letter, its been 12 working days now since they signed for it.

 

What should i do now ??

 

I was expecting a reply as it seems they normally reply to such a letter after looking through other threads.

 

Are they just hoping i'll forget and just keep paying?

 

Should i cancel my direct debit for the account too or leave it and see if they brake the rules and debit the next payment?

 

I really dont know what to do now i hadn't expected or planned for a non response :eek:

 

Any help on the matter would be great folks thanks.

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They will ignore you, then abuse you.

 

Stopping paynments is down to your personal choice and situation. If you keep paying, then they will not react. But be under no illusions, if you stop payments they will let slip the dogs of war. They will ultimately default you, regardless of the writes and wrongs.

 

If you are at all concerned at the consequences of witholding payment, send Halifax an official complaint. They have to deal with this, but ultimately, you will need to make the decission on which way you want to proceed.

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