Egg loan docs received. Unenforceable???

[anxious1234]

Hi. I am trying to help a friend out who has an egg loan. See agreement & T&C's below.

1. Is it enforceable?

2. I notice that he has PPI included. How does he go about trying to claim this back?

 

 

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss182/q4k/LLOyds%20TSB%20loan/egg%20for%20paul/agreement2-1.jpg

 

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss182/q4k/LLOyds%20TSB%20loan/egg%20for%20paul/TC0001.jpg

 

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss182/q4k/LLOyds%20TSB%20loan/egg%20for%20paul/TC0002.jpg

 

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss182/q4k/LLOyds%20TSB%20loan/egg%20for%20paul/TC0003.jpg

 

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss182/q4k/LLOyds%20TSB%20loan/egg%20for%20paul/TC0004.jpg

 

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss182/q4k/LLOyds%20TSB%20loan/egg%20for%20paul/scan0005.jpg

 

Thanks

Edited August 21, 2009 by anxious1234

[anxious1234]

Have just attahed first part of agreement

[vint1954]

Hi. I am trying to help a friend out who has an egg loan. See agreement & T&C's below.

1. Is it enforceable?

2. I notice that he has PPI included. How does he go about trying to claim this back?

 

 

 

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss182/q4k/LLOyds%20TSB%20loan/egg%20for%20paul/agreement2-1.jpg

 

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss182/q4k/LLOyds%20TSB%20loan/egg%20for%20paul/TC0001.jpg

 

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss182/q4k/LLOyds%20TSB%20loan/egg%20for%20paul/TC0002.jpg

 

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss182/q4k/LLOyds%20TSB%20loan/egg%20for%20paul/TC0003.jpg

 

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss182/q4k/LLOyds%20TSB%20loan/egg%20for%20paul/TC0004.jpg

 

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss182/q4k/LLOyds%20TSB%20loan/egg%20for%20paul/scan0005.jpg

 

Thanks

Is this all that they have sent.

 

There should be a page with your name and details on it, plus all of the prescribed terms, amount of credit, cost of credit, APR, cancelation rights, repayment dates ans amounts. This all has to be on the front and back of one sheet of paper that bears the signature.

[vint1954]

Have just attahed first part of agreement

Too small to see I am afraid.

[anxious1234]

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss182/q4k/LLOyds%20TSB%20loan/egg%20for%20paul/scan0005-1.jpg

 

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss182/q4k/LLOyds%20TSB%20loan/egg%20for%20paul/scan0004.jpg

Edited August 21, 2009 by anxious1234

[johannab]

subbing with interest as I too received loan 'cca' today from Egg.I intend to post it up tmrw. Mine is from Jan 04. I am unble to open your links though.

[vint1954]

These should be better

 

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss182/q4k/LLOyds%20TSB%20loan/egg%20for%20paul/agreement11.jpg

 

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss182/q4k/LLOyds%20TSB%20loan/egg%20for%20paul/agreement2-1.jpg

Images have been removed.

[anxious1234]

Images back now

[vint1954]

Images back now

Ok,

 

Most of the info is there, however there are no cancelation rights that I can see.

 

If this was dealt with by post, then I may be unenforcable.

 

I will ask one of the site team to confirm.

[vint1954]

Alerted Site team

[citizenB]

Hi. I am trying to help a friend out who has an egg loan. See agreement & T&C's below.

1. Is it enforceable?

2. I notice that he has PPI included. How does he go about trying to claim this back?

 

 

 

 

 

Unable to help you with the agreement, however as far as PPI is concerned, Please read the stickies in the following link

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/payment-protection-insurance-ppi/

 

You should find plenty of information there to help you make an informed decision on whether you have a claim for the mis selling of PPI.

 

If you need any more help on that side of things, just yell.

 

Have you tried tracking down other egg agreements and comparing them to your friends? You might find this thread by pt2537 useful.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/188093-egg-credit-agreements-what.html

 

HTH

[MARTIN3030]

I cant see the images-it still says removed ?

PPI is quite straightforward in so much as a claim.

Can you confirm the date that the agreement was taken out ?

[MARTIN3030]

I would strongly suggest having a read through this;

 

 

Hmn my mouse appears to have gone to sleep-ok go to legal issues forum and look for the Egg thread about agreements and what is wrong with them.

Edited August 22, 2009 by MARTIN3030

[steven4064]

Martin

 

The Egg agreement thread is about credit card agreements I think.

 

vint1954 is right that there are no concellation rights. However, that would only apply to a cancellable agreement. The CCA 1974 defines cancellable agreements as

67. A regulated agreement may be cancelled by the debtor or hirer in accordance with this Part if the antecedent negotiations included oral representations made when in the presence of the debtor or hirer by an individual acting as, or on behalf of, the negotiator, unless--

 

(a) the agreement is secured on land, or is a restricted-use credit agreement to finance the purchase of land or is an agreement for a bridging loan in connection with the purchase of land, or

 

(b) the unexecuted agreement is signed by the debtor or hirer at premises at which any of the following is carrying on any business (whether on apermanent or temporary basis)--

 

(i) the creditor or owner;

(ii) any party to a linked transaction (other than the debtor or hirer or a relative of his);

(iii) the negotiator in any antecedent negotiations.

So, an agreement is not cancellable if it has to do with land (irrelvant in your case, I presume) or if it is signed on premises where the creditor (or supplier in the case of debtor-crditor-supplier credit) does business - does this apply to you?

 

The other 'your rights' section is odd. They have used a standard for but inserted the bit that begins: "If you have obtained unsatisfactory goods...." in a place where they are supposed to have inserted "Examples indicating the amount you might have to pay appear in the agreement" (1983 regs). I wouldn't think a court would throw out the agreement because of that though, even though it is yet another case of Egg making things up as they go along when it comes to the wording of agreements.

[johannab]

Hello, Just to clarify then,

 

Should an egg loan signed in 2004 at home have a 'right to cancel' paragraph?

 

I have the same as the thread starter here and was basing its unenforceability on it having no 'cooling off period'.

 

Thanks,Johanna

[steven4064]

I think so, but this is not really my area - wait for someone else to confirm

[jon888999]

Hello, Just to clarify then,

 

Should an egg loan signed in 2004 at home have a 'right to cancel' paragraph?

 

I have the same as the thread starter here and was basing its unenforceability on it having no 'cooling off period'.

 

Thanks,Johanna

 

I've got a similar agreement and have not disputed it yet. But would like to know whether the lack of 'right to cancel' paragraph renders the agreement unenforceable.

 

This is the only credit agreement I have that may be enforceable. Egg even seem to have accepted (FOR NOW) the approved limit issue on my Egg Card. As they have acknowledged that my account is in dispute and they are unable to resolve the dispute over the approved limit. They've suggested that I complain to the FOS to resolve the dispute. Which I won't as they aren't sending me any letters or asking for payment etc.

Knowing the FOS they would say approved is ok. As FOS clearly represent the banlks interests not the consumers.

[vint1954]

Hello, Just to clarify then,

 

Should an egg loan signed in 2004 at home have a 'right to cancel' paragraph?

 

I have the same as the thread starter here and was basing its unenforceability on it having no 'cooling off period'.

 

Thanks,Johanna

I beleive that a regulated agreement, signed off premisses, that is not in the bank or loan companies place of business, must have a right to cancel clause. Someone will be along with better knowledge.

[vint1954]

CANCELLATION RIGHTS

 

You have a right to cancel this Agreement for 14 days, beginning with the day after this Agreement is signed by Us. You may exercise this right by sending Us written notice. Please see clause 4 of the Terms and Conditions for more information on your right to cancel.

This is a Loan Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Sign and keep a copy only if you want to be legally bound by its terms.

 

And

 

Cancelling a car loan can be relatively straightforward if you do it within a few days of signing the contract. Depending on where you signed the car loan agreement, you have up to 30 days within which you can cancel. If you have received the money from your lender within this time, you will have to pay this back, usually within 30 days. Generally, if you signed the agreement on your lender's premises you cannot cancel, unless they have not yet signed their part of the contract. In this case, you have a very short period of time within which you may cancel the agreement. You should call your lender immediately, following up your cancellation notice with a letter ideally posted by recorded delivery.

 

If you signed the agreement at home, for example, if you took the contract home to read it through and subsequently send back, you have a legal right to cancel the agreement within a certain cooling-off period. This period is usually fourteen days. However, once you have signed the agreement and returned it, you only have five days after you receive the reply in which to cancel. This reply should include a copy of your cancellation rights. The loan contract is unenforceable if you are not given notice of these rights.

 

Once the two week cooling-off period has elapsed, you will usually have to pay an early repayment fee if you wish to cancel the agreement; this fee is often the equivalent of one or two months' interest. Check the terms and conditions of your loan agreement however, as this fee varies between lenders. You must repay the loan amount in full, and usually within a short period of time after you cancel: typically within thirty days.

 

and

When might a credit agreement be not enforceable?

 

There are a variety of cases in which a credit agreement might not be able to be enforced:

• If the lender doesn't hold a copy of the agreement
  
• If the credit or credit limit isn't stated on the agreement
  
• If the interest is incorrect
  
• Increased credit has been added without being requested
  
• Credit card charges are deemed as unfair
  
• Sub-prime products sold to people in good credit
  
• No recognition of a deposit
  
• No mention of a 'cooling off' period
  
• The agreement has not been signed
  
• A person has been mis-sold payment protection insurance as a prerequisite of taking out the loan
  

Just a bit of light reading from googleing right to cancel.

 

Appears that it is important.

[steven4064]

If an agreement is not properly executed it can only be enforced by court order (s65 of the CCA 1974). A court is not allowd to enforce such an agreement under certain circumstances:

 

1. It doesn't have the debtors signature and the prescribed terms in the same document (s127(3))

 

2. If it is a cancellable agreement and the requirements about cancellation rights have not been complied with (s127(4))

[vint1954]

If an agreement is not properly executed it can only be enforced by court order (s65 of the CCA 1974). A court is not allowd to enforce such an agreement under certain circumstances:

 

1. It doesn't have the debtors signature and the prescribed terms in the same document (s127(3))

 

2. If it is a cancellable agreement and the requirements about cancellation rights have not been complied with (s127(4))

Spot on Steven.

 

Obviously you have use of the forum brain cell today:D

[jon888999]

Has anybody got a letter to send to egg disputing these loan agreements.

Thanks.

[vint1954]

Has anybody got a letter to send to egg disputing these loan agreements.

Thanks.

You could tinker with this one:

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

Account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

Further to my request under the above act, your attention is drawn to the fact that this account is subject to a serious dispute. On xxxxxxxx, by recorded delivery, I requested that you supply me a copy of the executed credit agreement covering this account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78, a copy of this request is enclosed. To date you have failed to comply with my request, instead supplying a non compliant copy of an agreement. Without production of a compliant agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to you, nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

I would remind you that while this alleged account remains in dispute, that you:

• May not ask for payment against this account.
  
• I am not obliged to offer any payment against this account.
  
• Cannot register any data with a third party.
  
• Cannot take any enforcement action, including registering Defaults.
  
• Cannot pass the account on to a third party for collection.
  
• Cannot sell the account.
  

For the avoidance of any doubt I have included section 78(1) and 78(6) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which states…

 

78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing ( 12 working days + 2 ) to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of £1, shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a) the state of the account, and

(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

 

Clearly as no such agreement has been supplied on request, you have not complied with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and I now draw your attention to section 78 subsection 6 which states If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

 

Clearly this is a situation as described in S.78(6) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the debt is unenforceable at this time. In addition, I draw your attention to section 127 (3) Consumer Credit Act 1974 which states

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the consumer credit act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

To clarify S.61(1) states

 

(1)A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

 

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

© The document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible

 

In addition the prescribed terms referred to in section 60 CCA1974 are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following—

 

1.Number of repayments;

2.Amount of repayments;

3.Frequency and timing of repayments;

4.Dates of repayments;

5.The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable

 

Therefore based upon the Consumer Credit Act 1974 this debt as it stands is unenforceable and should this proceed to litigation, a court is precluded from making an enforcement order under section 127(3) unless a true copy of the signed agreement is produced..

 

At the point where this account entered into the default situation as described in s78 (6) CCA 1974 no other charges are allowed to be added until such time as you become compliant with my request. As you are still not in compliance with my request I insist that the following takes place with immediate effect.

 

All entries which refer to missed payments be removed from my credit file

All collection activities cease with immediate effect until you comply with my request from 27/03/09 or such time as a court makes an enforcement order.

In addition, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on Debt Collection

 

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

 

What I Require.

 

I require that you send me a true signed copy of the executed agreement as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. If you are unable to supply the requested documentation because no such agreement is in existence I require written clarification as such.

 

I require that you comply with my request within 7 days of the date of this letter. I will not correspond any further with you until I either receive a copy of the requested documents as laid down in section 78(1) CCA 74 or clarification that such agreement doesn’t exist. I am advised that should you persist in pursuing this debt ignoring the above information you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40 as well

 

No other correspondence will be accepted

 

Should you attempt litigation it will be vigorously defended and the failure to supply documentation under the CCA 1974 is a complete defence to any legal action and your actions will be vexatious and unlawful

 

I trust this out lines the situation

Yours faithfully

[vint1954]

The Financial Services (Distance Marketing) Regulations

These Regulations apply to credit agreements and other financial services contracts entered into at a distance, without face-to-face communications.

The Regulations require specified information to be provided to the consumer in good time, before the consumer is bound by the contract.

In the case of credit contracts, the information must include:

• the name and address of the creditor
  
• a description of the main characteristics of the credit
  
• the total price payable for the credit
  
• the arrangements for payment, and
  
• information regarding cancellation or termination.
  

The information must be provided in a clear and comprehensible manner, and on paper or another durable medium which is available and accessible to the consumer.

The Regulations also provide a right of cancellation where a contract is entered into at a distance, other than in the case of agreements secured on land. The period of cancellation is 14 days from the conclusion of the contract or (if later) the date on which the consumer received the full terms and conditions.

[jon888999]

Sorry forjacking this thread!!

I'll write to egg and dispute my old Loan account then!

Before Mortimer Clarke/ marlin/Phoenix bullied me and I found this site. I thought I owec about 100k. Now it's virtually nothing! Most without too much of a fight!

I'll start my own thread about my egg Loan.

Take Care

Jon