TE9 out of Time Refused - no way!!?

[nipped-off]

Hi all, another newbie to the site, so all help greatly appreciated.

A PCN was issued over a year ago for failing to correctly display a resident parking permit , it had fallen off the windscreen onto the front seat of the car and was still fully visable. I phoned the Hounslow council to dispute this, and told them i was disuting and would not pay. Nothing further heard from then, i left the area a month later from London to Northants. Hounslow knew my new address - cos they posted me a chq for refunded council tax.

Last month I get a debt collectors notice for £167 odd for the fine. first i have heard of it - no other docs at all on this recd from anyone.

 

I submmitted a TE7 and TE9 only to have some sleeze Refuse it - who knows on what grounds - honestly I dont think late witness can reasonably be refused!

 

Will anyone send a baliff round to nab my telly?

Do I have the right to tell Hounslow council to got lost - in a nice way of course and to take me to court - refuse to pay anything to a debt collector or baliff?

Dont want to pay any monies out on this - it is totally rediculous to say the least.

 

I thought the law was there to catch deliberate wrong doers - since when have the councils and traffic authorities been allowed to be so totally militant and inconsiderate of the basic rules towards logic and decent understanding!?

 

I would like to demand under data protection from all 3 parties, debt collector, hounslow council and TEC subject access request of all data but cannot find a decent all encompassing letter to copy and tweak. Anybody got one they can share?

 

Surely I should have more than a letter from a debt agency about this PCN - I dont even have the pcn anymore. The letter is the only documentation I have of this fine and proceedings - other than my TE7/9 forms that were refused

 

Thanks for your help

Nipped...

[green_and_mean]

Did you change address with the DVLA?

[nipped-off]

Yup - although the ultimate change of address was delayed - sent to the wrong address - however yes, it was changed. need to check, but think the change went thru early in this year

[nipped-off]

Also, can anyone advise, should the ticketing officer have taken a picture of the offence at the time? Is this regulation or just on the off-chance that this would happen.

Can I obtain any remarks, details held by the council of the ticketing offence, and their records of my phone call / conversation with them as I know they have the phone call details recorded on their files.

Ta

[Jamberson]

i left the area a month later from London to Northants. Hounslow knew my new address - cos they posted me a chq for refunded council tax.

 

You were relying on the parking department cross-checking whether you had moved with the Council Tax department? I'm afraid they are nowhere near so organised. (Anyway, there's data protection issues.)

 

Will anyone send a baliff round to nab my telly?

Do I have the right to tell Hounslow council to got lost - in a nice way of course and to take me to court - refuse to pay anything to a debt collector or baliff?

 

The council don't take people to court over these matters. They don't need to. The bailiff has legal powers to recover the debt, so you can tell Hounslow to get lost if you want, but it won't make any difference. Yes, the bailiff can come around and seize property, probably your car if they can find it. And no, you can't refuse to pay. You can resist, but if they can they will take your property.

 

I would like to demand under data protection from all 3 parties, debt collector, hounslow council and TEC subject access request of all data but cannot find a decent all encompassing letter to copy and tweak. Anybody got one they can share?

 

I wouldn't think you need any flashy letters. Just write and say you want a copy of all personal records they have on you, and cite the data protection act. They should all send it all to you - don't know how it will help you though.

 

Surely I should have more than a letter from a debt agency about this PCN - I dont even have the pcn anymore.

 

You know the reason why you didn't get the letters - you moved away without advising them, and left the issue unresolved, presumably without having your mail forwarded. Now it's caught up with you. But if you want copies of the documents you are missing, write and ask for them. They'll send them to you I'm sure.

 

Also, can anyone advise, should the ticketing officer have taken a picture of the offence at the time? Is this regulation or just on the off-chance that this would happen.

 

He doesn't have to, but probably did. It's immaterial at this stage.

 

Can I obtain any remarks, details held by the council of the ticketing offence, and their records of my phone call / conversation with them as I know they have the phone call details recorded on their files.

 

Again, ask for them under the data protection act. Unsure what use it will be to you though.

 

Your only option from here is to file an N244. You will have to pay a fee to do this (I think it's £75). It challenges their decision to reject your TE9. If successful, I believe you can claim the £75 back as costs. And if successful you will be issued with new documentation and can re-appeal the PCN. You will have to decide whether it's worth gambling another £75.

[nipped-off]

Thanks Jamberson. I do want to fight this because "Councils have frequently been advised to exercise discretion[9]. As the Local Government Ombudsman special report "Parking Enforcement by Local Authorities" commented “Councils have discretion not to pursue a penalty charge at any stage of the procedure and have, as a matter of administrative law, a duty to act reasonably, fairly and without fettering that discretion. It would therefore be a breach of that duty if a council were to act unreasonably or unfairly or to fetter its discretion when considering such representations”.

 

Clearly, having duly paid for a residents parking permit I was doing my bit, the fact it fell off and they have a record of it, but refuse to cancel the ticket is not in line with what they are charged to do

In addition, they could have found me, if they even bothered to try instead of issuing it to collection agents, yes they do have a duty to try and find the offender, and if they have the details of the persons new address they should damn well use it - and not hide behind data protection act laws as an excuse - the record is on their files - not someone elses!

 

The reason I am wanting the documentation on all this is I dont have a single thing, not even the original PCN - so there is no way I can check if any of this has been legally issued and if there are any technical errors I can fight the pcn on

 

Yes I am loath to pay them, and loath to pay another figure to fight this. But I just dont see how they can keep getting away with using the public to refil their depleted coffers. It's like living with a little hitler hanging over your head

Edited August 21, 2009 by nipped-off
typo errors

[Jamberson]

I'm really sorry that I can't give you much help with this. Apart from filing an N244 you are out of options. I can only tell you factually where you stand, and I hope this isn't coming over as if I'm against you - I'm certainly not, but they hold all the cards now. Again I will repsond to specific points so you can see where you are at...

 

Councils have frequently been advised to exercise discretion[9]. As the Local Government Ombudsman special report "Parking Enforcement by Local Authorities" commented “Councils have discretion not to pursue a penalty charge at any stage of the procedure and have, as a matter of administrative law, a duty to act reasonably, fairly and without fettering that discretion. It would therefore be a breach of that duty if a council were to act unreasonably or unfairly or to fetter its discretion when considering such representations”.

 

It is unclear from this thread whether you in fact made representations. You mentioned earlier that you told the Council verbally that you were going to dispute it and not pay. So if you are going to do that, you would need to submit a written challenge to them, and if unhappy with their decision, contest further. Not sure if you did any of this, but even so, since you did not receive any further correspondence, you find yourself outside the appeals system. No Council will be expected to use discretion if the appeals system is not pursued.

 

In addition, they could have found me, if they even bothered to try instead of issuing it to collection agents, yes they do have a duty to try and find the offender, and if they have the details of the persons new address they should damn well use it - and not hide behind data protection act laws as an excuse - the record is on their files - not someone elses!

 

No council has a duty to go and find someone if they move. (Indeed, the parking department don't know you've moved unless you tell them.) The burden is entirely on you I'm afraid. Data protection is more than just something they hide behind. Council tax records have lots of personal info, for example the names of the people you live with. Would you be happy for some temp in the parking department to have access to your personal records like this? I wouldn't, and they don't. You really should have told them your new address, and you would have received the mail they send out.

 

The reason I am wanting the documentation on all this is I dont have a single thing, not even the original PCN - so there is no way I can check if any of this has been legally issued and if there are any technical errors I can fight the pcn on

 

Call Houslow and ask them for it. I'm sure they will send it to you. However you have no avanue open to fight the pcn now. Appeals have to be pursued in writing, within certain time frames. Only when they time-out is the matter passed to bailiffs. If you file an N244 there is a slim chance you can get yourself back into the appeals process, but right now, you have no option on appealing any of it. Sorry, but that is a fact. It's the N244 or nothing...

[nipped-off]

Thanks Jamberson,

Success or something like it seems to be happening! Coms with Hounslow querying why balifs turned up whilst a suspension order should have been in place (TE9 forms) has led them to admit to a mistake in not nofifying baliff, they have now put the case on suspended action for 365 days!

 

Errmmmm .... happy that I am about this action, what could it indicate? Suspending action on the ticket for a whole year sounds a little strange to me.

 

They are going to send me copy docs of all their paperwork, although they quibbed about this saying they could not reprint them, and have advised me to write an email to them re baliff action and the PCN details.

 

Am I being just too hopefull, or could this mean possibly that they are concidering cancellling the PCN then...

[Jamberson]

They should have suspended the warrant while the TE9 was being considered, which means no additional bailiff action (and fees) during that period.

 

I'm not clear on the exact sequence of events. You said "Last month I got a debt collectors notice for £167 odd for the fine. first i have heard of it - no other docs at all on this recd from anyone" - so I assume the bailiff action came before the TE9 was filed, which is procedurally correct. But it should then be on hold between your filing and the Council rejecting the TE9.

 

I'm not sure what the consequences might be if they did not do this. Could be that the bailiff did nothing anyway during that window and they will ignore the issue. Could be that the bailiff levied charges for whatever they did do in this period, in which case they might have to deduct that portion from their fees, or they might even cancel all the bailiff charges to date. Not sure how they will play it.

 

I don't think it will invalidate the warrant though, so the prospect of them cancelling the PCN completely seems remote to me. But it's an interesting development.

 

By the way, I would not infer from the 365 day suspension that they are intended to let it rest for a year - it's deliberately held for a period much longer than necessary to ensure it doesn't fall off hold before they've dealt with it. Once they've decided what to do, they will take it off hold again.

 

Unless they withdraw the warrant completely and issue you with another Notice to Owner, you still won't be able to appeal the charge, so this would certainly be the best outcome for you, in the event that they go for that.

 

Keep us posted.

[lamma]

TE9s are refused as a matter of policy by councils, often by the outsource provider not even the council itself. It is part of the contract in many cases ! So much for not fettering their discretion, it is deliberate and willful. Public law and duty disregarded on purpose in pursuit of cash. N244 in front of a judge, the vast majority are approved I believe.

[nipped-off]

Hi jamberson and Lamma.

Yup - baliff did appear when suspension notice should have been in place, so council is to sort that bit out, not for my account that is for sure. It transpires council have been rabidly corresponding to me at an incorrect address! Nice - no wonder i dont have any details or had no idea they were following up on this.

My hope is that they will now review this matter entirely at council parking service - not their 3rd party outsiders who automatically refuse TE9 and the likes, and a combination of their error, compounded with the bloop with the baliff error, will encourage them to say - ahh hell with it, cancel the pcn. !

Fat chance of course, but there is a good chance the charge will go back down to the original value of £40.

Worth the verbal and email fight for that at this point in time.

 

My saving grace would be they have been writing and sending docs to an incorrect address for almost a year! They traced me via DVLA to an address i was going to move to - subsequently did not - and never bothered to recheck - hence the problem. my correct address must have been with DVLA a few days/weeks after they did the enquiry in sept last year.

 

Ah well, lets see. Just wrote almost a book instead of an email - Hounslow council prefers correspondence by email not written - must be on a paper saving scheme there!

Least the lady i spoke with seemed in sympathy and agreement, and sugested most of the content of the email.

 

will let you know what happens!

[Jamberson]

You really should file an N244. In all likelihood they can still legally claim the majority of these charges from you.

 

Putting it back to £40 would be appropriate, but it's far more complex than it seems. The whole debt has been passed to a private company and they have added on their fees, which is how they make their living. To put it back to £40 means the Council taking it off the bailiff company completely and telling them they can't have their fees - which they won't be rushing to do, as the two organisations co-operate and work together.

 

In my view, not filing an N244 is like just hoping for the best, but it's your call of course.