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Contractual interest?


Glenn UK
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roydosan,

 

My MBNA rates are the same as well... the way I looked at it, it makes life easier as I only have one rate to worry about when working the interest rates out.

 

 

bill-k,

 

Thanks for your explaination in post #31 (I clicked your scales btw). I've been pulling my hair out trying to work out what rates to use and how to use them... but between you and Glenn UK I think it's quite clear... please correct me if I still misunderstand.

 

Apply the contractual rate in force (the one for purchases shown on your statement), stay away from the cash advance rate, and then if necessary argue in court that you used the APR/AER/contractual rate given by the credit card company as there was no way, as a layman, you could work out the specific underlying rate the bank actually uses.

 

One other question to throw in the mix. My First Direct rate was 0.82% when the first charge was made in 2002, and it rose roughly yearly to 1.01%, 1.24% rate now is 1.313% per month. Do we charge the contractual rate as 1.313% over the whole charge schedule, average it between 0.82% and 1.313%, or apply each one separately?

 

I can't seem to make a spreadsheet to work out a figure so I'm not sure if it makes a big enough difference that the courts will even care... what's yours or Glenn UK's take on this?

 

SirOweALot

BOS CC1 S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) sent 14/9/06

BOS CC2 S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) sent 14/9/06

FD CC SAR sent 14/9/06, PAR sent 10/10/06 claiming £457, sodoff letter rec'd 25/10/06, LBA sent 26/10/06

MBNA CC SAR sent 14/9/06, reply 22/9/06 looking into it, sodoff letter +£400 GW rec'd 13/10/06

 

Let Battle Commence...

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Cheers for the click, kind Sir !!

 

Glad my rambling meant some sense. Yes, what you say you understood from it just about sums it up. I only wish I could put things as clearly as that !!!:grin:

 

As far as I can make out, there is no spready to cope with all the varying rates over the years, and it would appear to me that as Joe public personal claimants, we are not expected to have to do that. It seems perfectly acceptable to claim Contractual at the currently publicised rate(s) - after all, the original contract was for variable rates, wasn't it ?

 

Perhaps the bank could argue in court that a lower, averaged, rate should be used, but if the principle of mutuality & reciprocity is to be upheld, then it must allow the current rate to be used IMHO.

 

See my last post. (can I say BUMLP ?) ;)

 

What say you, Glenn...?

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BTW - thanks again you guys - I've just noticed I've got 2 green squares, now ? Getting the hang of it, now - and that bit closer to a facelift.

 

Good 'ere, innit ?

 

I'll be backtracking later on to repay some favours !!

 

Cheers again,

 

Bill.

 

PS - can I add to my sig something like "If I tickled your fancy, you can click my scales!" ?

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Apply the contractual rate in force (the one for purchases shown on your statement), stay away from the cash advance rate, and then if necessary argue in court that you used the APR/AER/contractual rate given by the credit card company as there was no way, as a layman, you could work out the specific underlying rate the bank actually uses.

 

One other question to throw in the mix. My First Direct rate was 0.82% when the first charge was made in 2002, and it rose roughly yearly to 1.01%, 1.24% rate now is 1.313% per month. Do we charge the contractual rate as 1.313% over the whole charge schedule, average it between 0.82% and 1.313%, or apply each one separately?

 

I can't seem to make a spreadsheet to work out a figure so I'm not sure if it makes a big enough difference that the courts will even care... what's yours or Glenn UK's take on this?

 

SirOweALot

 

I worked out the rate over the complete time period using my spreadsheet which varies the interest rate accordingly. If you are going to argue in court about the principle of mutuality and reciprocity then it only seems fair that you charge the same rate that they would charge you. This would entail varying the rate accordingly. It may be slightly more complicated but that is not much of an excuse for explaining why you got it wrong in court.

 

Regarding the cash advance rate - I have gone through all my statements and it is exactly the same as the normal interest rate. If you end up in court be sure you can explain how you arrived at these figures or they may be able to get your claim struck out on the basis they can prove it is inaccurate.

_________________________________________

Alliance & Leicester MBNA Credit Card

Data Protection Act letter sent 3 July 2006.

Incomplete list of charges received 12 August 2006

Requested repayment of charges 10 November 2006

LBA sent 24 November 2006

Estimated £4650 in fines and interest.

Barclaycard

Data Protection Act letter sent 3 July 2006.

Incomplete statements sent 9 July 2006

Requested repayment of charges 14 August 2006

LBA sent 30 August 2006

Estimated £468 in fines and interest.

Initiated claim at MCOL 20 September 2006

Claiming £615.47 including fines & interest, s69 interest and costs

Claim acknowledged 10 October 2006

Defence filed 20 October 2006

Settled in full £640 total. 14 December 2006

Vodafone

Requested Default Notice removed 10 July 2006

Received letter agreeing to request 10 August 2006

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I worked out the rate over the complete time period using my spreadsheet which varies the interest rate accordingly. If you are going to argue in court about the principle of mutuality and reciprocity then it only seems fair that you charge the same rate that they would charge you.

That seems a fair point to me too. After all, we're not out to screw the banks (although for all the grief some people have had, it must be on some people's minds), but rather to get back what was unlawfully taken in the first place. Interest on that is a bonus, but only in as much as that's what the banks would do to us anyway. That said, it's not fair to gain from the actions we are taking, but the balance should be redressed.

 

Vampiress, is it possible for you to amend your credit card spreadsheets to take into account variable interest rates?

 

SirOweALot

BOS CC1 S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) sent 14/9/06

BOS CC2 S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) sent 14/9/06

FD CC SAR sent 14/9/06, PAR sent 10/10/06 claiming £457, sodoff letter rec'd 25/10/06, LBA sent 26/10/06

MBNA CC SAR sent 14/9/06, reply 22/9/06 looking into it, sodoff letter +£400 GW rec'd 13/10/06

 

Let Battle Commence...

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Vampiress, is it possible for you to amend your credit card spreadsheets to take into account variable interest rates?

 

SirOweALot

Basically, no. I've not too much time, so provide simple templates that most people will understand.

 

If anyone else wants to do this, I'll be happy to look it over and put it in Chambers if appropriate.:D

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Roydosan & Sir,

 

I see your point about the various rates over the years, but I'm still not sure that we should be expected to apply them. Having received 3 bundles of DPA SAR info back so far (admittedly just for current accounts), basically all I got was a set of copy statements. These only showed dates, descriptions and amounts of each transaction. The banks did NOT provide any information regarding interest rates in force over the periods covered.

 

Thus, in reciprocity, if they do not provide the info when asked for it, then we should not be expected to have it when we claim. It seems fair enough to me to just use the most recent (and current) published rates, as that is the only information that they can reasonably expect us to have on their rates.

 

Having said that, if they HAVE provided the earlier rates to you in response to a request, or you have admitted to them that you have this info, then I guess you may then be expected to use it. But we're all encouraged to shred our statements, etc., these days, aren't we ? !! :grin:

 

So, I'm still not fully convinced of the requirement for earlier rates.

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I'm not sure I agree about the interest rates varying and working it out over the years.

 

Seems to me that the argument is about your lost opportunity and their unjust enrichment and the potential to use your money as they saw fit over the intervening period.

 

The reason I make this point is this is not money you have lost in the sense you never had it, this is money you are charging them and its ONLY the principle thats important.

 

The actual rate is incidental to the argument. I suppose being truthful if i Knew that todays rate was significantly lower that the rate two years ago I would try to make an argument about why that was the right rate to use, but i think that simply taking the current rate is reasonable.

 

It is completely different to the argument about interest you are claiming back as having been paid.

 

In my view the argument for trying to work it out exactly is relevant.

 

JMHO

 

Glenn.

Kick the shAbbey Habit

 

Where were you? Next time please

 

 

Abbey 1st claim -Charges repaid, default removed, interest paid (8% apr) costs paid, Abbey peed off; priceless

Abbey 2nd claim, two Accs - claim issued 30-03-07

Barclaycard - Settled cheque received

Egg 2 accounts ID sent 29/07

Co-op Claim issued 30-03-07

GE Capital (Store Cards) ICO says theyve been naughty

MBNA - Settled in Full

GE Capital (1st National) Settled

Lombard Bank - SAR sent 16.02.07

MBNA are not your friends, they will settle but you need to make sure its on your terms -read here

Glenn Vs MBNA

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I'm not sure I agree about the interest rates varying and working it out over the years.

 

Seems to me that the argument is about your lost opportunity and their unjust enrichment and the potential to use your money as they saw fit over the intervening period.

 

The reason I make this point is this is not money you have lost in the sense you never had it, this is money you are charging them and its ONLY the principle thats important.

 

Glenn.

 

If that's the case then how can you argue about a contractual rate and the principle of reciprocity and mutuality?

 

If you are going to argue about a contractual rate it should reflect the contractual rate in force and that means it will vary over time.

_________________________________________

Alliance & Leicester MBNA Credit Card

Data Protection Act letter sent 3 July 2006.

Incomplete list of charges received 12 August 2006

Requested repayment of charges 10 November 2006

LBA sent 24 November 2006

Estimated £4650 in fines and interest.

Barclaycard

Data Protection Act letter sent 3 July 2006.

Incomplete statements sent 9 July 2006

Requested repayment of charges 14 August 2006

LBA sent 30 August 2006

Estimated £468 in fines and interest.

Initiated claim at MCOL 20 September 2006

Claiming £615.47 including fines & interest, s69 interest and costs

Claim acknowledged 10 October 2006

Defence filed 20 October 2006

Settled in full £640 total. 14 December 2006

Vodafone

Requested Default Notice removed 10 July 2006

Received letter agreeing to request 10 August 2006

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The other thing to consider is that there's 2 very different types of claims being made... one for bank accounts and one for credit cards.

 

Bank account interest rates have fallen over the years, and the courts may well take the fact that you're using a lower interest rate that has been applied previously i your favour.

 

Credit card interest rates however have risen over time, and the court could therefore argue that you are applying a higher interest rate than you are entitled to. This obviously works in our favour as its highly unlikely that the case would end up in court, but if you happen to be the unlucky one that does, wouldn't it go against you?

 

I'm very concerned by this... it's a pity we don't have someone in authority (any actuaries, barristers or financial gurus out there?) who could give a professional opinion... the difficulty would be that everyone's case is different, but surely there must be some guiding principles that we could all apply?

 

...but i think that simply taking the current rate is reasonable.
Glenn, that's fine as your opinion, but a judge may see it differently, that what I'm worried about.

 

In my view the argument for trying to work it out exactly is relevant.
Surely that's IRrelevant not relevant :confused::grin:

 

If that's the case then how can you argue about a contractual rate and the principle of reciprocity and mutuality?
Interestingly, First Direct sent copies of all my statements and they clearly show interest rates in force at the time... HOWEVER, MBNA just sent a statement of charges. I would therefore think that the principle of reciprocity and mutuality counts here because as Glenn pointed out, I know the varying interest rates for First Direct, but I don't for MBNA. That's not my fault as a laymen, I asked for the details and that's what I got sent... I'm going to use the variable rates for First Direct, and the contractual interest rate in force at the moment for MBNA.

 

SirOweALot

BOS CC1 S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) sent 14/9/06

BOS CC2 S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) sent 14/9/06

FD CC SAR sent 14/9/06, PAR sent 10/10/06 claiming £457, sodoff letter rec'd 25/10/06, LBA sent 26/10/06

MBNA CC SAR sent 14/9/06, reply 22/9/06 looking into it, sodoff letter +£400 GW rec'd 13/10/06

 

Let Battle Commence...

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Could I just clarify a small point with one of you regarding the interest rate to enter on my spreadsheet for claiming Compound Contractual interest ... The rate which appears on my statement is 1.8735%/Month so do I just multiply this by 12 & use 22.482%?? :confused:

 

I can't find the published APR for a couple of my cards & I really wanna get this right.

 

Thanks in advance

links to my current claims ...

My claim - Yorkshire Bank Visa

chezt V RBS Mastercard

Chezt v RBS Joint Account

chezt v Abbey Credit Card

 

Settled ...

chezt V Duet Card/Creation Finance

chezt v's Studio Cards

chezt v's Littlewoods Catalogue

 

Next ...

Abbey Joint a/c & Single a/c

Barclaycard (Mine & Hubby's)

Anyone else I can think of ...! :rolleyes:

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Could I just clarify a small point with one of you regarding the interest rate to enter on my spreadsheet for claiming Compound Contractual interest ... The rate which appears on my statement is 1.8735%/Month so do I just multiply this by 12 & use 22.482%?? :confused:

 

I can't find the published APR for a couple of my cards & I really wanna get this right.

 

Thanks in advance

Chezt, no that is incorrect. I haven't had to work this one out, myself, so I'm not sure exactly how the banks do it. As far as I understand, you have to divide the monthly rate by 28 to get a daily rate, then multiply that by 365 to get the annual rate. This gives 24.42% pa.

 

I have so far always applied the current published annual rates, though, and have found these on each banks website online. You might have to click "More Details" or similar, but they're there somewhere.

 

HTH.

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Interestingly, First Direct sent copies of all my statements and they clearly show interest rates in force at the time... HOWEVER, MBNA just sent a statement of charges. I would therefore think that the principle of reciprocity and mutuality counts here because as Glenn pointed out, I know the varying interest rates for First Direct, but I don't for MBNA. That's not my fault as a laymen, I asked for the details and that's what I got sent... I'm going to use the variable rates for First Direct, and the contractual interest rate in force at the moment for MBNA.

Sir, I see you're in undeniable possession of knowledge of the varying rates for First Direct, and are intending to apply them. I have not done this, myself, yet, but if I find myself in that position, then maybe I shall have to.

 

A question for yourself and Roydosan, if I may. The spreads I have seen so far calculate daily compound interest separately on each entered charge, then multiply this by the number of days since that charge was made. Then they finally add up all of the individual calculations at the bottom. OK., it is fairly easy to punch in the interest rate applicable at the time for each individual charge, and get it to calculate from that. But if you just do that, then you are no more correct than if you had used one single rate.

 

Every time the interest rate changes, then it is applied to ALL cumulative charges, and NOT just the charges made after the date of the change. Does your spread do this ? If so, can you briefly tell me how you do it, and I will do the same with mine.

 

I will then be ready for the time when I find myself in undeniable possession of Sir's knowledge !!

 

Thanks in anticipation.

 

Bill.

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Chezt, no that is incorrect. I haven't had to work this one out, myself, so I'm not sure exactly how the banks do it. As far as I understand, you have to divide the monthly rate by 28 to get a daily rate, then multiply that by 365 to get the annual rate. This gives 24.42% pa.

 

I have so far always applied the current published annual rates, though, and have found these on each banks website online. You might have to click "More Details" or similar, but they're there somewhere.

 

HTH.

 

Thanks for your help Bill - trouble is I can't find published rates - the 1.8735 was wrong actually it's 1.385% (whoops!) & it's on my Yorkshire Bank Visa & this rate isn't on YB or Clydesdale website. I have actually had a letter with my recent statement telling me my std purchase rate is changing & is currently 9.23% (?) and the APR is 17.9% ?? (CONFUSED)

 

The other I was looking for was studio cards but I have it now as they've started printing on the back of the statements - states 2.6%/mth 39.8%APR so the calculations don't add up do they?? Oh I AM still confused! :confused:

links to my current claims ...

My claim - Yorkshire Bank Visa

chezt V RBS Mastercard

Chezt v RBS Joint Account

chezt v Abbey Credit Card

 

Settled ...

chezt V Duet Card/Creation Finance

chezt v's Studio Cards

chezt v's Littlewoods Catalogue

 

Next ...

Abbey Joint a/c & Single a/c

Barclaycard (Mine & Hubby's)

Anyone else I can think of ...! :rolleyes:

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Chezt, I see what you mean. It doesn't add up does it ? Like I said, I haven't had to convert from monthly to annual rates, so I can't really say why that is - sorry.

 

If you've been sent notice of the current annual rate for your card by YB, then I'd use that. If you COULD find your particular card rates listed online, then presumably that is the rate you would find being published there as well, anyway.

 

I guess YB are not promoting a Visa card anymore, hence no sign of it on their website.

 

If they've sent you written notice of your current annual rate, then I'd say that is the rate to use. Likewise with Studio cards, if their published annual rate is 39.8%, then I'd use that.

 

HTH

 

Bill.

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If that's the case then how can you argue about a contractual rate and the principle of reciprocity and mutuality?

 

If you are going to argue about a contractual rate it should reflect the contractual rate in force and that means it will vary over time.

 

As i see it the principle is about the returning the favour as it were.

 

The rate is somewhat incidental in the sense that the banks or cc companies will argue you cannot charge them interest at all.

 

The actual rate you charge is in this sense completely incidental to the argument of reciprocity & mutuality.

 

However, Zootscoot has been posting some interesting stuff and she reckons (and I trust her judgement) that we cannot claim the excess o/d rate at all.

 

She believes if i have read her posts correctly that the normal overdraft rate is the proper rate to charge.

 

This is based on the fact that the ability to claim reciprocity is partly about what the bank could have used your money for and this would tend to point to the standard o/d rate.

 

Not sure where that leaves us on cc though.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mercantile-court-cases-stays/36034-case-management-conference-13th-2.html#post307326

 

As sirowealot pointed out this is all my humble opinion and i am not trying to say I'm right, only that like most of us I am trying to learn and do the best I can.

 

If i get to court I suspect the biggest battle will be to win the argument that i have the right to charge anything other than Sec 69 interest.

 

With the information I am gaining from this site I feel reasonably confident about this as i learn more.

 

When it comes to arguing the rate I will be perfectly honest and present what i believe to the court especially the stuff Zootscoot has been kind enough to post.

 

So whilst the court may look at my POC and say 'greedy bugger' I will make it clear that I have learnt more and understand there are different ways of looking at this issue.

 

Of course if the banks want to settle before court then they have to convince me that its worth my while to settle don't the?

 

Glenn

Kick the shAbbey Habit

 

Where were you? Next time please

 

 

Abbey 1st claim -Charges repaid, default removed, interest paid (8% apr) costs paid, Abbey peed off; priceless

Abbey 2nd claim, two Accs - claim issued 30-03-07

Barclaycard - Settled cheque received

Egg 2 accounts ID sent 29/07

Co-op Claim issued 30-03-07

GE Capital (Store Cards) ICO says theyve been naughty

MBNA - Settled in Full

GE Capital (1st National) Settled

Lombard Bank - SAR sent 16.02.07

MBNA are not your friends, they will settle but you need to make sure its on your terms -read here

Glenn Vs MBNA

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Guest willowb

However, Zootscoot has been posting some interesting stuff and she reckons (and I trust her judgement) that we cannot claim the excess o/d rate at all.

 

She believes if i have read her posts correctly that the normal overdraft rate is the proper rate to charge.

 

This is based on the fact that the ability to claim reciprocity is partly about what the bank could have used your money for and this would tend to point to the standard o/d rate.

 

 

Well and truely subscribed:D

 

Great thread glenn honey. I tried to tip your scales again;) lol but apparently I need to spread my reputation around before I can......Well:mad: I'm not that kind of girl!!!:lol: I haven't got a feckin' clue what it means but there you go!8-)

 

Wxx

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Chezt, I see what you mean. It doesn't add up does it ? Like I said, I haven't had to convert from monthly to annual rates, so I can't really say why that is - sorry.

 

If you've been sent notice of the current annual rate for your card by YB, then I'd use that. If you COULD find your particular card rates listed online, then presumably that is the rate you would find being published there as well, anyway.

 

I guess YB are not promoting a Visa card anymore, hence no sign of it on their website.

 

If they've sent you written notice of your current annual rate, then I'd say that is the rate to use. Likewise with Studio cards, if their published annual rate is 39.8%, then I'd use that.

 

HTH

 

Bill.

 

Thanks Bill - I've done Studio @ 39.8% and YB Visa @ 17.9% as advised on recent letter (this is changing to 19.9% on 1st Dec btw!)

 

i'm just stuck now on JJB/Duet card through Creation Finance as they charge 2.2% monthly which I presume is around the 30% mark ... think I'll have to give them a ring and just ask eh!

 

Thanks again for your input :)

links to my current claims ...

My claim - Yorkshire Bank Visa

chezt V RBS Mastercard

Chezt v RBS Joint Account

chezt v Abbey Credit Card

 

Settled ...

chezt V Duet Card/Creation Finance

chezt v's Studio Cards

chezt v's Littlewoods Catalogue

 

Next ...

Abbey Joint a/c & Single a/c

Barclaycard (Mine & Hubby's)

Anyone else I can think of ...! :rolleyes:

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i'm just stuck now on JJB/Duet card through Creation Finance as they charge 2.2% monthly which I presume is around the 30% mark ... think I'll have to give them a ring and just ask eh!

 

Sorry I wasn't too much help, there, Chezt !!

 

Yeah, I think a lot of people ring them for latest rates. I prefer online if possible, as you have some downloadable copy you can make, and also you can compare and decide for yourself which rate to use of the various rates listed.

 

FWIW you could try here:-

 

Creation Financial Services Limited

 

and

 

Welcome to DUET

 

If no luck, then get 'em on the blower, mate !! :-)

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1.8735% monthly equates to 24.95 apr

'I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.'

Thomas Jefferson 1802

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1.8735% monthly equates to 24.95 apr

 

Yeah how do you calculate it? I'm looking for 1.385% & 2.2%

 

Actually I did find a calculation online but it was some sorta MAJOR mathematical algebra type equation with different symbols etc ... sat n started at it for 20mins b4 deciding to praps just ring n ask! :confused::eek:

links to my current claims ...

My claim - Yorkshire Bank Visa

chezt V RBS Mastercard

Chezt v RBS Joint Account

chezt v Abbey Credit Card

 

Settled ...

chezt V Duet Card/Creation Finance

chezt v's Studio Cards

chezt v's Littlewoods Catalogue

 

Next ...

Abbey Joint a/c & Single a/c

Barclaycard (Mine & Hubby's)

Anyone else I can think of ...! :rolleyes:

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Sorry I wasn't too much help, there, Chezt !!

 

Yeah, I think a lot of people ring them for latest rates. I prefer online if possible, as you have some downloadable copy you can make, and also you can compare and decide for yourself which rate to use of the various rates listed.

 

FWIW you could try here:-

 

Creation Financial Services Limited

 

and

 

Welcome to DUET

 

If no luck, then get 'em on the blower, mate !! :-)

 

Thanks for the links Bill - I've already been on Creation & rates are nowhere to be found & the Duet site is 'currently being upgraded' - It's been like this over a week now!

 

Thanks for all your help but looks like I'll have to resort to the blower option! ;-)

links to my current claims ...

My claim - Yorkshire Bank Visa

chezt V RBS Mastercard

Chezt v RBS Joint Account

chezt v Abbey Credit Card

 

Settled ...

chezt V Duet Card/Creation Finance

chezt v's Studio Cards

chezt v's Littlewoods Catalogue

 

Next ...

Abbey Joint a/c & Single a/c

Barclaycard (Mine & Hubby's)

Anyone else I can think of ...! :rolleyes:

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Nobody's much use to you Chezt !!! :(

 

Hope the blower yields a result.

 

That online conversion formula - can you tell me where ? I can manage to grasp the formulae for compounded daily, and APR to actual annual rate, but I really fancy a bit of hardcore now and again - and that one sounded really good !!! 8-)

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Nobody's much use to you Chezt !!! :(

 

:confused::eek: :eek: :confused:

links to my current claims ...

My claim - Yorkshire Bank Visa

chezt V RBS Mastercard

Chezt v RBS Joint Account

chezt v Abbey Credit Card

 

Settled ...

chezt V Duet Card/Creation Finance

chezt v's Studio Cards

chezt v's Littlewoods Catalogue

 

Next ...

Abbey Joint a/c & Single a/c

Barclaycard (Mine & Hubby's)

Anyone else I can think of ...! :rolleyes:

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