My recent Court experience......

[Mak6]

Thanks to this forum and your support, I went to Court equipped with the armoury to defend the case brought by a debt collection company. My defence was mainly around 'unenforceability' of the Agreement. But I also argued that:- a) there was no default notice b) the amount claimed was unlawful due to unjustifiable charges c) the Claimant had failed to comply with a request for information under s78 - 79 of the 1974 Act and d) the Agreement was unenforceable and fatally flawed because the Claimant had failed to demonstrate that the 'prescribed terms' were in the same document that contained my signature (the Claimant failed to produce the original copy of the Agreement).

 

I was savaged by the judge from the word go for not paying up, he disregarded anything I said. He said that the fact that the Agreement may be flawes does not mean that I musn't pay. In his experience,he continued, the terms and conditions always come with the credit card after the signed application form has been completed, sent off and approved by the creditor. Briefly, the response to the above points was as follows:- a) a dca does not need to serve a default notice; b) this argument was thrown out despite the lack of statements covering the relevant material time; c) the Claimant had provided copies of the Agreement sufficient to meet the test of 'true executed copies', the Claimant argued that this does not need to be an exact copy; and d) the microfiche copies of the Agreement was adequate, and the fact that the copies were extremely poor was immaterial.

 

On that basis, I lost the case and am now contemplating an Appeal. Please feel free to comment on the above.

[Huff&Puff]

I would definitely appeal, you cannot lose once you get a real judge who understands the law, and especially House of Lords precedents.

[GhostDebt]

My opinion only, but I would consider appealing as well and also discuss his disregard of the law with the Ministry of Justice...

Please seek professional advice on a no win no fee basis if your going to proceed.

[Trudy B]

That’s really quite shocking – I think that if a judge is not fully familiar the law surrounding a case they should at least have the professional decency to pass it to a fellow judge who does.

 

If they are entrusted by the people of this country with the honour and responsibility of passing judgements as the enforceability or not of a case based upon the relevant points of law then they should be competent and not enforce their own personal moral judgements and opinions.

 

I would definitely appeal!

 

T

[pompeyfaith]

In his experience,he continued, the terms and conditions always come with the credit card after the signed application form has been completed, sent off and approved by the creditor

 

Well the above stinks then because in his words you sign when you do not know what you are signing up to.

 

Appeal

 

PF

[Monty2007]

Thanks to this forum and your support, I went to Court equipped with the armoury to defend the case brought by a debt collection company. My defence was mainly around 'unenforceability' of the Agreement. But I also argued that:- a) there was no default notice b) the amount claimed was unlawful due to unjustifiable charges c) the Claimant had failed to comply with a request for information under s78 - 79 of the 1974 Act and d) the Agreement was unenforceable and fatally flawed because the Claimant had failed to demonstrate that the 'prescribed terms' were in the same document that contained my signature (the Claimant failed to produce the original copy of the Agreement).

 

I was savaged by the judge from the word go for not paying up, he disregarded anything I said. He said that the fact that the Agreement may be flawes does not mean that I musn't pay. In his experience,he continued, the terms and conditions always come with the credit card after the signed application form has been completed, sent off and approved by the creditor. Briefly, the response to the above points was as follows:- a) a dca does not need to serve a default notice; b) this argument was thrown out despite the lack of statements covering the relevant material time; c) the Claimant had provided copies of the Agreement sufficient to meet the test of 'true executed copies', the Claimant argued that this does not need to be an exact copy; and d) the microfiche copies of the Agreement was adequate, and the fact that the copies were extremely poor was immaterial.

 

On that basis, I lost the case and am now contemplating an Appeal. Please feel free to comment on the above.

 

Which DCA was it ?

 

and

 

which court was the action brought?

[stleonards]

Can I just ask which court you went to and who was the judge?

[Mak6]

Thank you all for your comments. I'm hoping to go to Appeal but the Judge is making it difficult for me. After giving judgment, he said he would articulate his reasons by correspondence within 2 weeks. He did not sum up on the day. Meanwhile, I can only progress an Appellant's notice if I know the points the judge is raising. So my Appeal window is running out and I've just learnt that the Judge isn't going to be sending me his reasons for the decision he took. I'm seeking legal help and have yet to identify a consumer law/debt specialist to assisit.

[herbie171]

Can I also ask which court you went to and who was the judge?

[Monty2007]

Hi, is this your orginal thread?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/206640-mak6-mbna-cca-case-3.html

 

No documents were ever posted up so there was no comment on your agreement, DN or any other documents (PoC).

 

It is very, very odd that the judge would dismiss all these points. Which court was it and which judge?

[Mak6]

Thanks. The copies provided by the dca where so poor that scanning proved to be unproductive, and also there were other challenges which made it difficult for me to post the documents. But I did get good support from members. The Court is Gloucester, the Judge is Xxxxxxxxxx. He was personally scathing in his attack of me, and this buoyed the other side. I was treated with disdain and contempt by the Judge who gave me little air time. There were two sides it seems - the Judge and the dca on one side, against me.

Edited August 17, 2009 by supasnooper
Name of the Judge edited.

[robcag]

Hi, is this your orginal thread?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/206640-mak6-mbna-cca-case-3.html

 

No documents were ever posted up so there was no comment on your agreement, DN or any other documents (PoC).

 

It is very, very odd that the judge would dismiss all these points. Which court was it and which judge?

 

I agree with Monty2007.

 

Having just checked the link posted I see that several of your threads were merged, and I notice I had posted in one of them.

 

As Monty says, although you agree that you received good support from CAG members, we were left in the dark about most of the documents, including as it seems relevant now, the defence which you submitted.

 

As we don't know what you actually said in your defence it is very hard for people to be able to give an informed opinion on whether you presented any persuasive arguments to the court. Or maybe the Judge actually was an a55hole, but we won't be able to decide for ourselves without the full picture.

 

Cheers

Rob

[stleonards]

Thanks. The copies provided by the dca where so poor that scanning proved to be unproductive, and also there were other challenges which made it difficult for me to post the documents. But I did get good support from members. The Court is Gloucester, the Judge is Harrington. He was personally scathing in his attack of me, and this buoyed the other side. I was treated with disdain and contempt by the Judge who gave me little air time. There were two sides it seems - the Judge and the dca on one side, against me.

 

On what date did this happen and who was the DCA?

[Crapstone]

It seems odd all around particulary if it was defending a CCJ in the first instance, against a DCA. And is it just me or do I detect some sarcasm when I read the posts? If it's just me then sorry I mentioned it.

[mikek]

A friend of mine had a similar experience in one of the London county courts.

 

The Judge had not read the case at all, did not know what the prescribed terms were, was unaware of the legal preceedents, he had a personal opinion about debt avoidance and was clearly siding with the bank even though they were talking nonsense.

 

He dismissed all arguments in a pre-allocation hearing.

 

The bank discontinued the claim just before the formal hearing when my friend wrote to them saying that he would proceed with an appeal if this misinterpretation of the law continued.

 

The court was Edmonton County Court.

 

I can say who the judge was as well if I am allowed to. Am I?

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello mikek!

 

The bank discontinued the claim just before the formal hearing when my friend wrote to them saying that he would proceed with an appeal if this misinterpretation of the law continued.

Good point.

 

The banks fear a good Appeal, because Appeals set precedents. They really hate precedents that go against them.

 

Whilst they like to win, they also know that too easy a victory is actually quite dangerous for them. If they have won by deceit or favour first time out, and know this, they will not be keen to have a re-run further up the system.

 

I think everyone fighting a bank should plan an Appeal as part of the battle. All being well, you won't need it. But, plan for it nevertheless, and be prepared to roll straight in to an Appeal if justice has clearly not been served first time around.

 

If you make that intention quite clear from day one, I suspect the banks will think twice about pushing a weak case if they detect a real determination not to bend over for them first time around.

 

Sadly, the stakes are higher but, that does work both ways. Never forget that.

 

Remember, this is never about the money for them. They just need to win a handful of cases each Month to maintain the illusion that being taken to Court is a nightmare for the Consumer. On the whole, it is, because too many Consumers are indeed beaten by a malicious combination of County Court duffer Judges and their incestuous level of favouritism towards banks in general, and sharp Barristers-for-rent in particular.

 

But, just because the odds are stacked against us, does not mean the odds stay stacked that way at Appeal.

 

The last thing they want is a determined foe, who will clearly not accept injustice. That does worry them, and far more than many people realise.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[supasnooper]

A friend of mine had a similar experience in one of the London county courts.

 

The Judge had not read the case at all, did not know what the prescribed terms were, was unaware of the legal preceedents, he had a personal opinion about debt avoidance and was clearly siding with the bank even though they were talking nonsense.

 

He dismissed all arguments in a pre-allocation hearing.

 

The bank discontinued the claim just before the formal hearing when my friend wrote to them saying that he would proceed with an appeal if this misinterpretation of the law continued.

 

The court was Edmonton County Court.

 

I can say who the judge was as well if I am allowed to. Am I?

 

Unfortunately, CAG will not allow Judges to be named, as we do try to make sure that Judges are not possibly libelled.

 

We wish for the Judges to side with CAG members when they are Litigants in Person.

[securityinstaller]

sorry to butt in any case prededents or case law.

[lilly white]

wilson v 1st county.

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2000/278.html&query=title+(+wilson+)&method=boolean

IT DOES SEEM THE HIGHER YOU GO THE BETTER YOU ARE.

 

IT IS VERY CLEAR THAT THE JUDGES DO VARY A LOT AS DO SOME IN THE LEGAL FIELD.

 

However it is all so very clear that when you are in court you have to look the judge in the eye and say no the consunmer credit act actual says this not this so i will be going to appeal.

 

I ALSO KNOW EASIER SAID THEN DONE.

 

REGARDS TO YOU ALL

[Huff&Puff]

sorry to butt in any case prededents or case law.

 

IANAL, but I believe this is one of the main ones:

 

Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd

[Crapstone]

wilson v 1st county.

Wilson v First County Trust [2000] EWCA Civ 278 (3 November 2000)

IT DOES SEEM THE HIGHER YOU GO THE BETTER YOU ARE.

 

IT IS VERY CLEAR THAT THE JUDGES DO VARY A LOT AS DO SOME IN THE LEGAL FIELD.

 

However it is all so very clear that when you are in court you have to look the judge in the eye and say no the consunmer credit act actual says this not this so i will be going to appeal.

 

I ALSO KNOW EASIER SAID THEN DONE.

 

REGARDS TO YOU ALL

 

 

It is easier said than done when they glare at you in that way they must have practised in the mirror a million times beforehand whilst pretending they are top dog in the House of Lords.