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greg A

motoring fines and admin charges

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Hi all

i wonder if anyone can help i drive a company car which the company lease i have just got a penalty charge for stopping in a box junction for 11 seconds. l was onllly half in the box and not in the way of any traffic. My problem is the lease company have already paid the fine and just sent my company an invoice for the fine and an invoice for thirty 25 pounds = vat admin charges which the company will stop from monthly pay. There is no information with the invoices as to where the offence took place the only reason i know it is 11 seconds is the time gap between the two photo,s they included. i might have been waiting to turn right or i really dobn't know. also there is no information enabling me to appeal. so i have two questions. are the admin charges legal and should they send me all the information so i could appeal or by them paying have i lost the4 right of appeal

 

gregA

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1) as it has now been paid, there is no appeal.

 

2) whether or not they can deduct from your salary will depend on either your contract of employment or the terms you agreed (and signed) when you took on the car.

 

3) the reason that they have paid it, is that they are ultimately liable for the charge; not the driver. It is one of the iniquities of decriminalised enforcement.

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It is also one of the iniquities of leasing - the driver has little opportunity to appeal since the RK (Leasing Company) do not care, they'll pay, add their fee and bill it to the lessor.

 

The '11 seconds' doesn't really help you anyway - these pictures simply prove you were waiting for a minimum of 11 seconds, and more than enough for the claim to be upheld. Box junctions are meant to be kept clear at all times, if your chosen path is blocked, you are expected to wait 'off box' until your exit is clear.

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Thread moved to the Parking/Traffic Offences forum.


 

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The '11 seconds' doesn't really help you anyway - these pictures simply prove you were waiting for a minimum of 11 seconds, and more than enough for the claim to be upheld.

Not true. You can wait, stationary, inside a yellow box for as long as is necessary to complete your manoeuvre provided it is with the defines of how to use a yellow box junction.

Box junctions are meant to be kept clear at all times,

Not true again. If it has to be kept clear "at all times" how are motorists supposed to get from one side to the other? You may wait in a box junction to turn right if the only thing preventing you from doing so is oncoming traffic. If there is oncoming traffic for more than 11 seconds, is this "more than enough for the claim to be upheld" like you state? I think not.

 

if your chosen path is blocked, you are expected to wait 'off box' until your exit is clear.

Not for a right hand turn!

 

The point greg A is making, wich is perfectly reasonable is that he has had no right of appeal because the lease company paid it without referring it to him, and they have also applied what many people will recognise as an unreasonable (excessive) "admin" charge for doing just about bott all. (see banking forums about these 25/30pound "admin" charges)

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Pat has the situation pretty succinctly.

 

If I were you I would check the terms of the lease very carefully. It may be you need to re-negotiate the contract to stop them doing this.

 

At the very least you should challenge them on the admin fee. £25-30 is a penal amount for the amount of effort involved. The lease car company that I'm with have reduced their £35 admin fee to £12. Still over the odds IMV, but a darn site better than £35.


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Disagree away - which bit of 'Do not enter box unless your exit is clear' do you find confusing?

 

As for the original point - the leasing company is perfectly within its rights to pay the penalty and seek repayment from the lessor, it has formed part of every vehicle lease I've ever read. Unfair ? Perhaps, but if firms leasing vehicles said, no - 'that's not on' it would probably change. Trying to claim otherwise that there's something you don't like, yet still entered into the agreement is a recipe for disappointment.

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'Within its rights' seems at odds with 'customer service' however.

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Disagree away - which bit of 'Do not enter box unless your exit is clear' do you find confusing?

 

I do not find any of it confusing, hence I manage to teach it quite well all day!

 

You at no point mentioned anything about the "exit" being clear or not clear, only that waiting in the box "for 11 seconds was more than enough" to satisfy the offence. You could wait in the box for 2 minutes or more without an offence occurring, if you are waiting to do a right turn, and there is continuous traffic preventing you from leaving the box, as long as as soon as there is a break in the traffic or they are stopped by an amber/red light, you can leave the box immediately.

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You at no point mentioned anything about the "exit" being clear or not clear, only that waiting in the box "for 11 seconds was more than enough" to satisfy the offence. You could wait in the box for 2 minutes or more without an offence occurring, if you are waiting to do a right turn, and there is continuous traffic preventing you from leaving the box, as long as as soon as there is a break in the traffic or they are stopped by an amber/red light, you can leave the box immediately.

Agree with Crem on this one. From my own research and also my advance driver training courses - this is absolutely clear. Obviously ifit's a "money Box" junction then the council will want motorists to think otherwise.


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Disagree away - which bit of 'Do not enter box unless your exit is clear' do you find confusing?

 

I will disagree away. The offence is not committed by entering a box junction if your exit is not clear. The offence is committed if you enter a box junction and have to stop your vehicle due to stationary vehicles beyond the box junction. The two are completely different.

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7. – (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. From Letter of the Law Money Box Junction I am amazed that people don't understand this. Councils an adjudicators (and the Highway Code which is NOT a statement of the law) can and do get it wrong. There isn't a single word about making sure your 'exit is clear' and the statute does not define 'clear'. Highway code is dumbed down shorthand. Councils get it wrong for the money but adjudicators who only get appointed if they have sufficient relevant experience have no excuse at all.

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lamma, unfortunately, the guidance on driving often has to be "dumbed down" to ensure learners can understand and abide by the intention of the complexly worded legislation.

 

Whilst the statement in law may not refer to the exit, using it as a teaching reference has always proved to be effective in order to convey the intention of the junction. Of course, when an alledged contravention has occurred, then it is important to interpret the law accurately, particularly if you feel your intentions were good, and the situation which put you "in contravention" was beyond your control.

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thanks for all your replies unfortunetley as i havn't been told where the offence took place i really don't know if i was going right or waiting for the exit ahead to clear

gregA

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