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avatari

Me v Barclays - Unfair bank charges

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Hi, advice welcome.

 

Have processed my very recent bank claim through applying to the bank, bank refused claim, so went through my local court (BOW).

 

Bank has submitted a defence, as claim is (slightly) over £1500, and I have today received an AQ which I now need to pay £35 for. Bit frustrating as I had hoped claim would be stayed first, I suspect will be stayed AFTER I have paid this money.

 

BUT as I'm here now, thought I'd ask:

 

1) Will my claim be likely stayed after this, or is there a chance that a) Barclays might decide the game is up and make me a full/partial offer (I'd take my chances and only accept full) or b) will I get my day in court (which I would relish)?

2) Am I actually better off getting this stayed until the outcome from the Lords?

3) I've no probs filling this form out as I've seen the template and know what I have to do. But should I include draft directions for full disclosure of Barclays costs/anything else and can anybody help me word the directions?

 

I 've looked into it, but hardship is not a realistic position to take, though I live close to my overdraft each month (which means I incur charges and I've had about 6-7 reserve fee charges in the last year)! Many thanks.


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Hi,

 

I'll move your thread to the Barclays Forum.

 

Regards.

 

Scott.


 
 

Any advice I give is honest and in good faith.:)

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Some of your questions have been answered already.

It will be stayed in all likelyhood,and its likely Barclays have requested it.

Yes including draft directions for disclosure with the AQ is a very good idea,and you have nothing to lose by trying for it.

There are some good examples in the forums.

I will see if I can point you to them.


Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

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Hi Avatari,

 

See Article 14 here - The Consumer Forums - Bank charges templates (consumer)

 

:)


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Guys,

 

I really don't have a problem with the AQ, it's the draft directions.

 

I've looked but I can't find any specifics to help me with b), c) and d) below.

 

"The Claimant shall within 14 days of service of this order send to the Defendant and to the Court:

 

  • a) A schedule setting out each charge repayment of which is sought, showing the date, amount, and reason given (if any) for that charge being made;

 

  • b) Copies of any statement or other document relied upon as showing that each and every charge has been made;

 

  • c) A statement of evidence of all matters relied upon as tending to show that the charges are irrecoverable as penalties or otherwise;

 

  • d) Copies of decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon.

If the Claimant fails to comply with this order, the claim will be struck out without further order."

 

Gulp! To clarify:

 

b) Do I really need to send copies of all my statements? This will be one seriously weighty bundle, and highly time-consuming to supply at this stage. I thought the idea was to supply evidence at a hearing not before?

 

c) No idea whatsoever.

 

d) Is there a link to all the relevant cases? What would be 'other' legal materials?

 

Thanks


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Avatari,these directions are for consideration,and therefore you do not have to submit ANY of those things UNTIL the directions are ordered.(IF they are ordered)

So at this point dont worry about them.

If the Court DOES order these exchanges-you will have very little reasons to worry-since we KNOW Barclays will not comply.

In any event,copies of all your statements will HAVE to be provided later in your bundle to Both Barclays AND Court.

 

Should disclosure therefore be granted (ordered) the LAST thing you will need to be worried about is your compliance-it will be GAME OVER :D


Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

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Ahhhhh................I see....:oops:

 

Well that makes much more sense now.:D

 

Thanks Martin! I'll just get on and send it this week.


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Good stuff.:)


Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

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Right, AQ is being posted to court and Barclays today, RD to both of course.

 

I'm starting to notice quite a few challenges to the Reserve fees, but most seem to be hardship cases.

 

Can anyone point me in the directions of how to claim back these fees on the basis of only using them due to all the unfair charges levied prior to August 2008 (i.e. if Barclays hadn't taken nearly £2000 off me over the last six years, I wouldn't need to be using a Reserve)?

 

I take it I'd need to a) win my current case in Court to then be able to claim these back in a separate case and/or b) wait for the outcome of the banks application to the House of Lords/EU/God/whoever else they can find to appeal to?

 

Or could they theoretically be tagged onto my current case?

 

I assume I can't claim independently because although these aren't part of the waiver, legally they are watertight on the 'service' aspect and my only claim would be that I have only come to be charged on the basis of unfair previous charges - charges which ARE under the waiver?

 

Thoughts?


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You should read this thread about Bookworm taking Barclays on through the FOS - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/barclays-bank/181529-right-war-bookie-barclays.html

 

I don't think you'll succeed in making the direct link about older fees causing the Reserve Fees to be incurred. However, read here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/201984-why-let-your-bank.html#post2198541


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Today I have received this, despite using the AQ to request disclosure of calculation of charges as we agreed above.:(

 

"Dear Sir/Madam, This matter was referred to DJ ******** who has asked whether this case ought to be stayed until the conclusion of the Bank Charge Test Case. Yours...."

 

From the phrasing, does this mean that I have an opportunity of reply? And how to do so?

 

I wouldl love to request that this case can be decided simply if Barclays can demonstrate the charges were fair by discosing the claculation of those charges, and thus not clog up the court with yet another case. Clearly the judge is not wise to this opportunity.

 

Ideas?


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Hi Avatari,

 

The judge really has no option but to Stay your claim.

 

If you try and proceed with it, the bank will object and the case will be Stayed anyway.

 

I suggest you reply to the court saying you agree that the claim should be Stayed pending resolution of the OFT test case. :(


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okay thanks Slick.

 

I phoned the court prior to your reply and they told me I could write to the judge but I think I'll let it lie. Assuming the test case comes back in our favour, I'll be sure and claim the 8% interest!


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right, I've had a good think and I'm going for it!

 

Rang the court today and they said claim is still stayed.

 

About a week ago I got the standard (from others I've seen on this site) letter from Barclays saying that they weren't going to give me back my money under the complaints process, and if there was also a court claim this would be addressed separately. No separate letter addressing claim yet recieved. They owe me near on £2000 now, and I want it back.

 

Not my first court case so fully prepared to go in and present legal argument. Understand risks of paying other side's costs if I lose etc.

 

Happy to email site team (bank fodder, slick martin?), if someone pms me the address, I can send paperwork from them/me so far. POC in separate post below.


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Clearly, this will need substantial revision with permission of the court to take into account the SC decision and new legal argument (esp under CCA 1974, which I understand may work?)

 

Particulars of Claim

 

The Claimant has had an account ********** ("the Account") with the Defendant which was opened on or around 199*.

1. The account was conducted on the basis of the defendant’s own standard terms and conditions.

2. At all material times the Claimant was a consumer and the Defendant was a supplier within the meaning of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999

3. During the period in which the Account has been operating the Defendant debited numerous charges to the Account in respect of alleged breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant.

4. Alternatively the charges were levied in respect of various purported services provided by the Defendant and relating to exceeded overdrafts, returned cheques, failed direct debits and so forth.

5. The Defendant also charged interest on the charges which were applied.

6. The charges were levied on the basis of certain purported contractual terms which apparently permitted the charges to be made.

7. A list of the charges applied is attached to these particulars of claim.

The Claimant contends that:

Insofar as they may be penalties, the charges debited to the Account are punitive in nature; are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the Defendant; exceed any alleged actual loss to the Defendant in respect of any breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant; and are extravagant and unconscionable in amount in comparison with the greatest loss that could conceivably be proved to have followed from the breach, but instead act in terrorem to ensure contractual compliance and to deter a breach on the part of the Claimant.

Insofar as they purport to be services provided by the Defendant, the High Court and subsequently the Court of Appeal have held the services in respect of which the defendant has levied charges are subject to tests of unfairness under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulation 1999.

The purported terms imposing the charges levied by the Defendant are invalid under UTCCR because

a.They are contrary to the requirement of good faith.

b.They cause a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer in that:-

• Bank accounts have become a basic essential service

• The Defendant is a wholly dominant partner in a non-negotiable standard-form contract.

• There are a limited number of providers of banking services all whom exercise similar dominance over their customers in non-negotiable standard form contracts.

• These banks exercise a collective dominance in the market.

• The charges of all banks are highly similar in nature and in cost and so the consumer in general and the claimant in particular has no real choice between banking service providers and is forced to acquiesce to the charges.

• The charges exceed actual costs by several thousand percent

• They are applied unilaterally in a standard form contract without the possibility of negotiation

• The Defendant raises the charges or restructures its charging scheme at will without discussion with its customers

• The Charges are of subsidiary importance to the customer in the context of the Banking Contract as a whole and would not influence the making of the Banking Contract.

• The customer had no means of assessing the fairness of the Charges at the time of entering the contract

• The charges reflect a markup of several thousands of percent on the costs of dealing with the claimant's "delinquency" episodes. This is an extraordinary markup for any UK business. The normal markup on the High Street is less than 100%.

• Many of the Defendants charges are levied on previous charges incurred in preceding months. Therefore the Defendants are themselves causing the impecuniousity which then triggers more charges. Therefore the Defendants have caused much of the claimant's impecuniousity and it is the Defendants who are causing the charges to be levied with a view to their own profit.

• The Defendant operates its high level of charges in order to cross-subsidise other banking services which it provides to other customers at less than cost price - "free-banking".

• The charges could be imposed repeatedly and interest at a higher rate could be charged on those accumulated charges

• The Defendant's charges structure depends upon the impecuniousity and vulnerability of its poorer customers to provide free-banking services for those in a better position.

• The overall charging regime operated by the Defendant is disproportionately applied to a minority of its customers, often those who are least able to afford it.

• As established by the High Court and subsequently by the Court of Appeal (OFT v Abbey & 7 Ors) the customer would receive no service or benefit in return for the imposition of charges.

 

11.In the premises the terms imposing the charges are unfair within the meaning of Regulation 5 (1) and thus not binding on the Claimant under Regulation 8.

Accordingly the Claimant claims:

a) the restitution of the amounts debited in respect of charges in the sum of £1***.00;

b) Restitution of interest charges which have been paid on the above charges in the sum of £***.**;

c) Restitutionary damages to be assessed by the court

 

Alternatively, the restitution of the sums levied in charges and related interest on those charges as set out above, and interest under section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% a year, from 1ST August 2003 to 28th June 2009 of £***.** and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £0.**.

Court costs or other costs as allowed by the court;

 

***********************************END POC**************************************


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Avarti, I'll get back to you shortly.


 
 

Any advice I give is honest and in good faith.:)

If in doubt, you should seek the opinion of a Qualified Professional.

If you can, please donate to this site.

Help keep it up and active, helping people like you.

If you no longer require help, please do what you can to help others

RIP: Rooster-UK - MARTIN3030 - cerberusalert

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Not able to deal with scans if they are not in multipage pdf format.

Sorry


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what's your view of my options, BankFodder? Thanks


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bump..can anyone help with this please?


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I sent you a PM earlier.

 

:)


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Have now SAR'd barclays. Specifically requested historical T and Cs.

Now just a case of waiting. If not back in two weeks, will send another letter asking themt to keep the complaint open as am waiting on SAR: likewise if they try and strike out will make application on same basis.


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For anyone interested, here is the reply Barclays sent to me when I made my original complaint before court action.

 

Barclaysreplytocompaintpg1.jpg

Barclaysreplytocomplaintpg2.jpg


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Hi sorry for late reply only just saw your pm.

Can you confirm the periods of your account ?

I can prob help out with terms and conditions.


Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

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just saw this as well as on other thread, sorry.

 

opened 2000. still open. no T+Cs whatsoever - never thought I's need to keep them - doh!


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Ok I had an extremely lengthly case with Barclays.My claim was from 1999 to 2001.

They were very reluctant to provide terms and conditions from outside 6 years.

In fact I had to submit an order to get them after they repeatedly said it was my duty to prove their terms and conditions were unfair...not their duty to provide me with them.

 

The terms and conditions provided a pivitol part of my case and I therefore studied them at length not only the earlier ones-but also the later ones.

 

I managed to get a copy of their 2000 terms although they were unable to provide the 1999 ones.

The Court ordered that they provide a sworn witness statement to say they could not supply the 1999 terms and had done a thorough search.

They also maintained that the terms from 1999 to 2001 were materially the same.

In the earlier rulings of the test case,Justice Andrew Smith found against Barclays in that one of their terms was unintelligible.(as with the same decision for other banks)

However in the later rulings handed down in 2008 that considered common law he ruled in favour of Barclays given that there was a clause (I think 7) in which they state that your acount must remain in credit at all times and that any overdraft had to be agreed.

This formed the core of Barclays defence from therein and was what effectively put blocks on business claims which relied exclusively on common law.

We should remember however that the challenges to the charges then did not include other elements which are being pursued now.

In particular those submissions being used under CCA 1974.

 

In addition to the terms and conditions,We also have some very rare tarriff documents from 1997-I have a dual tariff document which I think is from around 1998 /99 which covers both business and personal accounts.

 

Barclays were very quick to remove archive material from websites once the bank claims got underway,so finding historical data is very very difficult....but I am happy to say we have it :D


Have a happy and prosperous 2013 by avoiiding Payday loans. If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Advice offered by Martin3030 is not supported by any legal training or qualification.Members are advised to use the services of fully insured legal professionals when needed.

 

 

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