Ebay/Courier problem - any help appreciated!

[lexis200]

Hi all

 

My mum recently bought a cooker from an ebay seller - advertised as brand new, with nothing else on the description barring general points of the cooker. Now she did this without me there, and ended up buying from a private seller (bad) with only 27 feedback (bad) who stated no returns (getting the idea?)

 

Well, amazingly the cooker turned up, but this is where it gets problematic.

 

First off, please bear in mind my mum does not really 'do' ebay and is not aware of the rules and general bits and pieces you need to know when you buy.

 

Anyway, mum made an offer on this cooker through ebays 'best offer' thingy which was accepted. When the bloke asked for payment though he got mum to just send a paypal payment rather than going through ebay (ie circumventing fees). She duly did this, paying with her debit card through paypal.

 

Mum and dad were away for a while and they have builders in who were going to check and sign for the cooker when it arrived, which should have been between 8 and 6 as far as I'm aware.

 

The courier company were running late and did not turn up until nearly 7, by which time the builders had left.

 

The driver then went to a neighbour to get them to sign for it, and left the cooker outside in the back garden, with a note saying that the neighbour had checked it to make sure it was ok (one of the stipulations on the auction was that it must be checked at delivery, and that the driver would wait for this to be done).

 

Mums garden has no security whatsoever, not even a gate - the drive simply leads straight through to the garden. The driver was told that it would not be taken in until the next morning when the builders arrived.

 

The cooker was completely wrapped in bubblewrap and had plainly not been unwrapped to be checked, despite what the note says.

 

When the builders arrived the next morning and took the cooker in to check it, they found it had small marks on the front, some of which had been painted over (I would assume by the seller), along with small nicks in the handles and dents on the bottom, which appear to be the result of it being dropped. It had been wrapped only in bubblewrap with one piece of (now broken) polystyrene on the base.

 

There is unsurprisingly no answer from the seller, and the couriers are stating that they did nothing wrong in leaving it unattended. They are also denying that they said it was checked (mum still has the note left by the driver saying it was)

 

Surely they owe a duty of care to my parents and should a) not have left it when it was apparent it would be out all night in a completely unsecured area, and b) not have left it when it had not been checked, as this would plainly make any claim mum had about it's state very problematic.

 

I've told mum she ought to go to the CAB to see what, if anything, can be done, but I think she's pretty demoralised by this and is already of the mind that she's going to have to accept the £600 odd is now paying for a cooker that looks less than new. I have no idea if it actually works or not either as it's not been tried yet, but I'm concerned that should it work but then go wrong that the warranty it came with will be null and void if the cooker has been dropped.

 

Anyway, just to summarise as I realise that's a bit lengthy

 

Item bought from a private seller and described as new

Paid for through credit card/paypal, but not through ebay

Courier left item unattended overnight

Courier stated item was checked when it was not

Cooker is cosmetically damaged and may have been dropped either by seller or courier - unsure of whether it works or not.

Seller not responding

Courier considers 'matter closed'

Paypal can't help as it was outside ebay so would only have been protected in the event of non-delivery.

Bank may be able to help after 30 days, but I don't know what this would entail?

 

If anyone has any thoughts on this I'd really appreciate hearing them. Does my mum have any comeback with any of this or is it just one of those things that she'll have to put down to experience?

 

Thanks very much

 

Lexis:)

[Guest janensteve]

i am unfamiliar with ebay and paypal, so i cant help on this one i'm afraid.

[cab1ne]

i am unfamiliar with ebay and paypal, so i cant help on this one i'm afraid.

 

i have a paypal account.

my paypal account holds the payment until i aknowledge reciept of the goods and the goods are as advertised (but if i dont aknowledge within 7 days after delivery the payment goes through) i pay a little extra for this cover but its worth it £1.50 for every £100.00. maybe you have it covered:confused: worth checking.

 

cab

[GamekeeperToPoacher]

Hi Lexis

In the sad tale you say that it was paid by debit card and then in the summary you say credit card.

 

If it was CC is there any comeback from the CC co?

 

Just a thought

 

GK

[summerbreeze]

Hi Lexis

You said it was bought by best offer .

 

Was the offer made via Ebay and accepted by the seller via Ebay?

 

If so it is an ebay transaction.

 

Or did you mum just message the seller and make an offer ? Then conclude the transaction privately ?

 

Or did your mum make the offer via Ebay and then the seller contacted your mum via message?

 

 

 

SB

[noomill060]

is the seller a trader?

 

(Very important question, if he is, you can reject it for no reason.)

[noomill060]

Ah, I see he wasnt.

 

OK, you can do a SNAD complaint (Significantly Not As Described) and get your money back or start a small claims action.

[diddydicky]

your mum needs to use the paypal and e bay dispute resolution service

 

also, unless your mum gave specific instructions that the neighbour could sign on her behalf then the cooker technically has not been delivered.

 

even if the neighbour did examine it - thats means absolutely nothing

 

the courier was acting for the seller not the buyer and the buyer has not accepted the goods nor has she accpeted them in undamaged condition.

 

i think you will find that paypal will recover the payment back from the sellers account

 

failing which a fairly good claim through a county court i woould have thought

 

goods were not as descrbed

 

the reduced payment in this instance does not serve to alter that position (unlike say a shop sale in which the price has been reduced due to defects)

[Bill Shidding]

Hi Lexis

 

Does my mum have any comeback with any of this or is it just one of those things that she'll have to put down to experience?

 

An item descibed as new, can also have "second" in the description.

 

I think your Mum has had a double whammy of bad luck.

Firstly, the "seller" knew that a transaction (paid for outside ebay) is never investigated (its hard enough to get them to investigate transactions on ebay!).

DSR don't apply to private sales.

Snad will only apply to ebay completed sales.

I'm sure you can't do a chargeback on a debit card, unless it is fraud.

Secondly, she got a second rate courier, who knew that a neighbour won't know that the item needs checking, prior to signing.

 

Ebay has Caveat Emptor written all over it, I should know, that is where my username comes from (shill bidding!).

 

Another draw back is that you cannot get the sellers phone number through ebay either (due to off-ebay sale). Do the courier firm have it on their invoice/delivery slip?

 

You could issue a small claim, if you're sure of his details.

 

Or, resell the cooker (tested) and put the episode down to experience. At least your Mum would recoup some cash.

 

I would be livid too!!!

 

Best of luck

 

For further help/advice you may find ebays community question and answer board useful. Found here http://forums.ebay.co.uk/forum.jspa?forumID=7

Sorry, I don't know how to change links!

 

Bill

Edited August 12, 2009 by Bill Shidding

[summerbreeze]

Hi Lexis

 

In your initial post you say this

 

"Anyway, mum made an offer on this cooker through ebays 'best offer' thingy which was accepted. When the bloke asked for payment though he got mum to just send a paypal payment rather than going through ebay (ie circumventing fees). She duly did this, paying with her debit card through paypal."

 

If your mum made a best offer through Ebay and it was accepted by the seller then through Ebay this IS an ebay transaction.

 

Even if your mum paid him directly through Paypal instead of via an Ebay invoice it is still an Ebay transaction..

 

Otherwise did your mum contact the seller through ' ask the seller a question ' and arrange the sale privately that way ? If so then it is an ' off ebay ' transaction.

 

In any case as your mum has made a payment through Paypal she can raise a dispute about the goods received.

 

Many people use Paypal to process payments not just ebay sellers and Paypal has good protection for buyers .

 

If your mum has an ebay transaction number which would be found on her ebay buying history she can still quote that number in any dispute even if she didnt pay via an ebay invoice.

 

If your mum made an offer through ebay and the seller accepted I dont see how it was an off Ebay transaction.

[noomill060]

Was it an Ebay Classified ad, or an auction or a Buy it Now?

[Bill Shidding]

Lexis, has your Mum got the cooker listing on her "My Ebay" page?

If not, and she hasn't left feedback for him, then the sale was "off-ebay"

 

Bill

[diddydicky]

Hi Lexis

 

 

 

An item descibed as new, can also have "second" in the description.

 

I think your Mum has had a double whammy of bad luck.

Firstly, the "seller" knew that a transaction (paid for outside ebay) is never investigated (its hard enough to get them to investigate transactions on ebay!).

DSR don't apply to private sales.

Snad will only apply to ebay completed sales.

I'm sure you can't do a chargeback on a debit card, unless it is fraud.

Secondly, she got a second rate courier, who knew that a neighbour won't know that the item needs checking, prior to signing.

 

Ebay has Caveat Emptor written all over it, I should know, that is where my username comes from (shill bidding!).

 

Another draw back is that you cannot get the sellers phone number through ebay either (due to off-ebay sale). Do the courier firm have it on their invoice/delivery slip?

 

You could issue a small claim, if you're sure of his details.

 

Or, resell the cooker (tested) and put the episode down to experience. At least your Mum would recoup some cash.

 

I would be livid too!!!

 

Best of luck

 

For further help/advice you may find ebays community question and answer board useful. Found here eBay Forums: Community Question and Answer Board

Sorry, I don't know how to change links!

 

Bill

 

ah yes- i totally missed that it had been done off e bay when i responded= apologies but your mum could argue in court that he was a trader and not a private seller if he has sold similar items on his e bay account (check his feedback and print it off)

[lexis200]

Thanks so much everyone for taking the time to reply. I wasn't around yesterday after I posted, hence the lack of response to questions. I'll try and answer them now...

 

Was it an Ebay Classified ad, or an auction or a Buy it Now?

It was originally a Buy it Now, but mum made a Best Offer which the seller agreed to outside of ebay via email.

 

i have a paypal account.

my paypal account holds the payment until i aknowledge reciept of the goods and the goods are as advertised (but if i dont aknowledge within 7 days after delivery the payment goes through) i pay a little extra for this cover but its worth it £1.50 for every £100.00. maybe you have it covered:confused: worth checking.

 

cab

I would be pretty much 100% that mum does not have this - but it sounds interesting and I might look at it for my account, thanks:)

 

Hi Lexis

In the sad tale you say that it was paid by debit card and then in the summary you say credit card.

 

If it was CC is there any comeback from the CC co?

 

Just a thought

 

GK

Sorry, my mistake, it was definitely a debit card. The bank have said they may be able to help after 30 days (apparently so that mum has time to try and sort it out first), but I don't really see what they're going to do? I've never had an issue like this with anything so I have no idea about talking to the bank to get it sorted.

[lexis200]

Hi Lexis

You said it was bought by best offer .

 

Was the offer made via Ebay and accepted by the seller via Ebay?

 

If so it is an ebay transaction.

 

Or did you mum just message the seller and make an offer ? Then conclude the transaction privately ?

 

Or did your mum make the offer via Ebay and then the seller contacted your mum via message?

 

 

 

SB

It was the last one summerbreeze unfortunately, so aside from belatedly reporting the seller for circumventing fees (she honestly wasn't aware she shouldn't have done it outside ebay!) I don't think there's much mileage in going to ebay:(

 

Ah, I see he wasnt.

 

OK, you can do a SNAD complaint (Significantly Not As Described) and get your money back or start a small claims action.

Unfortunately again I don't think a SNAD will be of use as it wasn't completed via ebay. Small claims is I fear completely out of the question. My dad was diagnosed with the early stages of senile dementia a while ago, and although for the time being he's fine, my mum is understandably hugely stressed. What with that, the building work they've got going on (essentially the whole downstairs and the dozy lumps didn't just go away for it, they're living in the middle of it), there's no way mum would go to court.

 

Hi Lexis

 

 

 

An item descibed as new, can also have "second" in the description.Nothing like that, just 'new' and then the list of facilities the cooker had:(

 

I think your Mum has had a double whammy of bad luck.

Firstly, the "seller" knew that a transaction (paid for outside ebay) is never investigated (its hard enough to get them to investigate transactions on ebay!).

DSR don't apply to private sales.

Snad will only apply to ebay completed sales.

I'm sure you can't do a chargeback on a debit card, unless it is fraud.Yep, I'd agree with all that (didn't know anything about the chargeback bit though, so thanks for clarifying that)

Secondly, she got a second rate courier, who knew that a neighbour won't know that the item needs checking, prior to signing.TBH I'm more hacked off with the courier than with the seller. If they had done their sodding job in the first place and taken it back none of this would have happened. The seller specifically wrote that you had to check it at the time of delivery, so in them just leaving it (and then lying about it being checked), they seem to have taken away mum's only possible get out.

 

Ebay has Caveat Emptor written all over it, I should know, that is where my username comes from (shill bidding!).

 

Another draw back is that you cannot get the sellers phone number through ebay either (due to off-ebay sale). Do the courier firm have it on their invoice/delivery slip? Nope:(

 

You could issue a small claim, if you're sure of his details.As above, not a hope mum would go that route - or allow me/my sisters/brother to do it either.

 

Or, resell the cooker (tested) and put the episode down to experience. At least your Mum would recoup some cash.I think she'll end up just living with it TBH, and that's what is so galling. She just doesn't have it in her to fight things like this when she has so much on her plate already.

 

I would be livid too!!!

 

Best of luck

 

For further help/advice you may find ebays community question and answer board useful. Found here eBay Forums: Community Question and Answer Board

Sorry, I don't know how to change links! Thanks, I'll have a look:)

 

Bill

[lexis200]

Hi Lexis

 

In your initial post you say this

 

"Anyway, mum made an offer on this cooker through ebays 'best offer' thingy which was accepted. When the bloke asked for payment though he got mum to just send a paypal payment rather than going through ebay (ie circumventing fees). She duly did this, paying with her debit card through paypal."

 

If your mum made a best offer through Ebay and it was accepted by the seller then through Ebay this IS an ebay transaction.

 

Even if your mum paid him directly through Paypal instead of via an Ebay invoice it is still an Ebay transaction..

 

Otherwise did your mum contact the seller through ' ask the seller a question ' and arrange the sale privately that way ? If so then it is an ' off ebay ' transaction.

 

In any case as your mum has made a payment through Paypal she can raise a dispute about the goods received. Paypal have told her that as it wasn't an ebay transaction they could only have helped if it had not been delivered. Again it's the bleedin' courier company causing a load of trouble!

 

Many people use Paypal to process payments not just ebay sellers and Paypal has good protection for buyers .

 

If your mum has an ebay transaction number which would be found on her ebay buying history she can still quote that number in any dispute even if she didnt pay via an ebay invoice.

 

If your mum made an offer through ebay and the seller accepted I dont see how it was an off Ebay transaction.

 

Basically she did the Best Offer bit, and the seller emailed her back accepting, telling her the total and giving his email address for a paypal payment. He knew what he was doing in other words:mad:

 

ah yes- i totally missed that it had been done off e bay when i responded= apologies but your mum could argue in court that he was a trader and not a private seller if he has sold similar items on his e bay account (check his feedback and print it off)

Thanks DD, that's an interesting point. I think my dad said something about him having a list of other similar things he was selling, so I'll see if I can find anything like that out.

 

Would you think going to ebay is the thing to do if it looks like he is a trader, (just wondering if they'd just clobber him but still ignore mums problem)?

[lexis200]

I think that's about it:)

 

If I've missed anything important just shout!

 

Thanks again chaps:)

[noomill060]

It may not have been through Ebay- but it was paid through PAYPAL.

 

You should use the PAYPAL complaints process to resolve this.

 

At the bottom of PAYPAL page for this transaction ther will be a link to the PAYPAL Resolution page-

 

This is what it looks like:

 

 

Have a problem? Address a problem with this transaction in the Resolution Centre.

 

 

Sorry to labour the point- FORGET THAT IT WASNT AN EBAY TRANSACTION.

 

USE PAYPAL TO RESOLVE THIS.

 

As soon as your mum makes a complaint the amount of £600 or whatever it was will be frozen in the seller's account until the problem is resolved. As they cant prove it was delivered to your MUMS ADDRESS they will lose any claim your Mum makes.

[citizenB]

Lexis, I think noomill has a good idea there. If you can at least get the payment frozen then perhaps the seller will be inclined to talk to you.

 

What rotten luck {{}}

[Swift Express]

There is some great advice on here. Just from the Couriers point of view it sounds to me like this guy was trying to get rid of a "hot potato". Dont think any decent courier would seriously leave something like this outsideto face the elements.

Also a word of caution when signing for any neighbours/friends delivery....just print UNCHECKED by your signature.....does help when the steards enquiry starts

 

thanks for your time

[Bill Shidding]

Also a word of caution when signing for any neighbours/friends delivery....just print UNCHECKED by your signature

 

Well pointed out SE.

 

When I took deliveries, I always signed the docket "unchecked".

 

Indeed, even if its your own parcel, and you can't check it because the courier is in a hurry and is thrusting the clipboard at you.

 

Bill