PCN issued for parking too long but car was in different bay

[roxrox]

I got issued with a PCN today for parking too long in a two hour bay.

 

I was parked in this bay for less than two hours, this bay had space for around three cars, I moved my car to a different road for a couple of hours but later returned to this same road. I parked in a bay adjacent to the one I parked in first, this bay had enough room for my car alone. These two bays were separated as there is a driveway for some flats above a shop. Along the driveway is a solid white line ending in a T on both sides which joins these two bays together.

 

My question is, is each bay treated seperately? The first bay had a two hour sign but the second didn't and both bays were marked out with single broken lines.

 

I have already sent an email disputing this PCN to the council concerned, but am now unsure whether I was in the wrong as I did return within 4 hours and even though it was a different bay, it might still be classified as the same. Could anyone please advise me if I have a case or should I just pay the reduced charge?

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

BR

[sarajulldin]

does the sign say no return 4 hours?? is so then yes you in the wrong unfortunaly, i got done for it and paid

[Jamberson]

Don't pay just yet.

 

Are the two bays actually seperate? The second one is completely outlined as a self-contained bay? If it's a long bay with a length of white line inside it, then that's just one bay.

 

If they are completely separate, then the second bay needs a sign next to it, or it has no restrictions and the PCN is invalid.

 

If you could advise on the location, I'll check on Google Earth (assuming the bay is not a new one).

[roxrox]

The sign did say no return within four hours.

 

Yes the bays are separate, actually the road was retarmaced only yesterday do fresh new lines but each bay is definately marked

[sarajulldin]

if it does not say no return, then you are allowed to return immeditaly, has a code been given to the contrvention?

[Jamberson]

Judging from your description you're not guilty of returning within 4 hours. In fact you didn't return at all.

 

That sign means no return to that particular bay - you parked in an entirely seperate bay. If there is no signage next to that bay, there are no conditions on time or on whether you are allowed to come and go. Sounds to me like an invalid PCN as no contravention occurred.

 

Are you able to post any images, either of the location or the PCN itself?

[roxrox]

Can't remember the code as I left it at work, but it was for parking too long.

 

Yes it definitely says no return within four hours on the first bay, but the second bay I got my ticket in has no sign whatsoever.

 

The road is bath place, in leamington spa, but unsure if it's on google earth and as it's been tarmaced and repainted don't think the images would be upto date! Lol

 

I will post an images(s) tomorrow when at work as it is close by, there are several bays on this road, probably around 6 I think, but only three separate signs.

[sarajulldin]

i was under the impression that if it says no return on one sign , then that covers all the bays???

[Jamberson]

This could only be inferred if "all the bays" means bays of the same type. For example, it would not apply to a resdient permit holder bay, or a disabled bay, because you wouldn't be returning to the original one, but to a different one with different restrictions.

 

Each bay has a sign stating what the restriction is, and a bay with no sign has no restriction - nothing prohibiting you from parking there 24/7.

[lamma]

i was under the impression that if it says no return on one sign , then that covers all the bays???

 

did the sign have a black arrow on it ? (the black arrow has a specific meaning - 'in the direction shown' ). was it facing toward the second bay or away from it.

[roxrox]

Im pretty sure it has no arrow at all and was in the middle of the first bay, i will take photos tomorrow and post them

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Each bay requires a sign. If a bay has no signage then the signage is inadequate and restrictions cannot be enforced.

 

On the no return issue it depends on what the Traffic Order says. "Bay" has no definition. What does is "Parking Place" and "Parking Space". Parking Place may be multiple Parking Spaces so is the no return prohibition to the same parking space or parking place?

[green_and_mean]

Bernie is correct the no return applies to the parking place, but thats irrelevant since you got a PCN for overstaying not re parking which are two completely seperate matters so the PCN is void no contravention occured.

[roxrox]

I didnt actually overstay as i was in the first bay for less than 2 hours and i came back to another bay which didnt have a sign a couple of hours later and did not overstay in that bay either.

 

Anyway below are pictures of the bays and signs.

 

The first picture shows three cars in the first bay, mine was first of all parked next to the blue car, where the silver car is between the hours of 10:15am to 11:55am, i then moved the car to another road and came back to the adjacent single bay where the other silver car is at around 14:15pm.

 

The second picture shows the sign for the bay on the left for three cars in the first pic. The second bay doesn't have a sign at all.

 

The third pic shows the two bays i parked in, first on the left and second time on the right where i actually received the PCN.

 

Fourth pic is where i got the PCN, as you can see this bay has no sign whatsoever.

 

Fifth pic shows the line between the two bays in front of a driveway.

 

I beleive i maybe correct as there are 6 bays on this road, 4 have signs and the two single car bays dont have a sign at all, therefore as Jamberson said i could in theory park here 24/7, even though i didnt overstay i could in theory.

 

One last bit of info the PCN was for code: 30 Parked for longer than permitted, they have me down observed from 11:43 to 14:33, now they observed those times at 11:33 in the first bay and 14:33 in the second bay.

 

Hope this clears up what actually happened, look forward to hearing advice as to whether i can actually fight this PCN.

 

Many Thanks in advance

 

BR

[green_and_mean]

I didnt actually overstay as i was in the first bay for less than 2 hours and i came back to another bay which didnt have a sign a couple of hours later and did not overstay in that bay either.

 

 

Hope this clears up what actually happened, look forward to hearing advice as to whether i can actually fight this PCN.

 

 

Doesn't that answer your own question? If you didn't overstay you are not parked in contravention.

For the 'offence' to occur you need to remain stationary. If you move and remain in the bay/parking place or go away completely and come back its a different 'offence' re-parking within 'x' hours of leaving. To enforce this the CEO should record in some way the exact location in his not when first seen and upon PCN issue. If he has made an error or lied then any proof you have that you re-parked will help your cause. Even if you re-parked within the time prohibited they cannot change the PCN so you should be in the clear.

[roxrox]

Doesn't that answer your own question? If you didn't overstay you are not parked in contravention.

For the 'offence' to occur you need to remain stationary. If you move and remain in the bay/parking place or go away completely and come back its a different 'offence' re-parking within 'x' hours of leaving. To enforce this the CEO should record in some way the exact location in his not when first seen and upon PCN issue. If he has made an error or lied then any proof you have that you re-parked will help your cause. Even if you re-parked within the time prohibited they cannot change the PCN so you should be in the clear.

 

The whole point of the question was whether that sign in the first bay was related to the second bay or if the two bays should be treated seperately, so from what i can gather they should be treated as two separate bays and the second bay should have a sign for them to enforce any kind of PCN.

 

If this is the case i will then contact Warwick DC again and give my photos as evidence.

 

Many Thanks to everyone for their help.

[green_and_mean]

The whole point of the question was whether that sign in the first bay was related to the second bay or if the two bays should be treated seperately, so from what i can gather they should be treated as two separate bays and the second bay should have a sign for them to enforce any kind of PCN.

 

 

Once upon a time double transverse lines (2 lines marking end of bay) indicated the end of a parking place but the 2002 TSRGD somehow forgot to allow for this so now you have to guess or read the TRO.

[roxrox]

So I am confused now, should i take up the PCN with the council on grounds there was no sign in that single or bay or the fact i was issued a PCN for the wrong contravention, as in i didnt park too long but i returned within the time i should have? Would they let me off for the latter?

[Jamberson]

Rox - you said at the start you have already sent in an appeal. Best thing to do is wait for the outcome of that appeal. They won't consider a second appeal at this point, and in any case your first appeal is likely to succeed.

 

In the event that they turn down your appeal, you can wait until they issue you with a Notice to Owner (I presume you're the registered keeper) and then you can make what's called a Formal Representation, which is basically another written challenge.

 

This would be the time to bring up what's been said here. You have two forceful legal arguments - contravention is wrong (should have been code 22 I think) and there's no restriction sign on the bay. If it gets that far, I would raise both points in your representations. I can't see either losing, let alone both. To me it's as clear cut as they come.

[roxrox]

Rox - you said at the start you have already sent in an appeal. Best thing to do is wait for the outcome of that appeal. They won't consider a second appeal at this point, and in any case your first appeal is likely to succeed.

 

In the event that they turn down your appeal, you can wait until they issue you with a Notice to Owner (I presume you're the registered keeper) and then you can make what's called a Formal Representation, which is basically another written challenge.

 

This would be the time to bring up what's been said here. You have two forceful legal arguments - contravention is wrong (should have been code 22 I think) and there's no restriction sign on the bay. If it gets that far, I would raise both points in your representations. I can't see either losing, let alone both. To me it's as clear cut as they come.

 

Thanks a lot mate and thanks to everyone else as well for their input, I will leave as it is and await their response, it says upto 56 days on the reverse of the PCN!

[dandy1764]

Sorry wrong place

Edited August 19, 2009 by dandy1764