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Opinions Needed Please On This Credit Agreement!

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Good Morning everyone

 

I would be very grateful if you could give your opinions on this cca that I have with Lloyds TSB. I am not disputing the fact that this debt exists- I have though sent LLoyds the Account in Dispute letter as this is all I got ( and have been told this is all they have on me) since request more than 42 days ago.

 

There is nothing on the back or attached, just what you see below. However, there is another persons card number on the top( where pink note is) and some tampering on the sides.

 

I have put in complaints regarding missold ppi and credit charges which would more than wipe this debit out, but just wanted to preempt the reply I may get from LLoyds has have not heard anything since they received the letter on the 5th Aug 09.

 

Thanks in advance

lloyds cca.jpg

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Good Morning everyone

 

I would be very grateful if you could give your opinions on this cca that I have with Lloyds TSB. I am not disputing the fact that this debt exists- I have though sent LLoyds the Account in Dispute letter as this is all I got ( and have been told this is all they have on me) since request more than 42 days ago.

 

There is nothing on the back or attached, just what you see below. However, there is another persons card number on the top( where pink note is) and some tampering on the sides.

 

I have put in complaints regarding missold ppi and credit charges which would more than wipe this debit out, but just wanted to preempt the reply I may get from LLoyds has have not heard anything since they received the letter on the 5th Aug 09.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Its too small for me to view

 

S.


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IMPORTANT: Please take my advice in the spirit it is given and on the basis that I am expressing my opinion, These opinions are not endorsed by CAG in anyway and are offered informally without prejudice or warranty of any kind. These opinions are solely based upon the knowledge I've gained from this fantastic site and life in general. I have NO legal training.

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If you upload them to TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting & then copy and paste the URL back here we'll be able to see them.

 

On the Tinypic page left click the 'choose' button & a seperate window will open, choose which file you want to upload and left click 'open', the window will close then left click 'upload now' button. Your document will upload to tiny pic & the page will refresh giving a list of links. Just copy & paste the Url link back here & we'll be able to see it.


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Thanks cerberusalert here it is hope I've done this correctly 2pq8ju8.jpg

 

The pink paper is where the other persons card numbers were.

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Thanks cerberusalert here it is hope I've done this correctly

 

The pink paper is where the other persons card numbers were.

 

No prescribed terms on that document, if they havent sent anything purporting to be the back of that then its unenforceable subject to judge lottery in court.

 

S.


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Deal with your debts:

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***** SERIOUSLY IN DEBT, DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO, TRY NationalDebtLine's MoneySteps *****

 

 

IMPORTANT: Please take my advice in the spirit it is given and on the basis that I am expressing my opinion, These opinions are not endorsed by CAG in anyway and are offered informally without prejudice or warranty of any kind. These opinions are solely based upon the knowledge I've gained from this fantastic site and life in general. I have NO legal training.

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It's total rubbish, send them this;

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

This account is in Dispute .

 

On xx/xx/2007 I wrote to xxxxxxxxx requesting that xxxxxxx supply me a true copy of the executed credit agreement for this account.

In response to this request I was supplied a mere application form which did not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The document sent purporting to be a credit agreement does not contain any of the prescribed terms as required by section 60(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) made under the authority of the “1974 Act” sets out what the prescribed terms are, I refer you to Schedule 6 Column 2 of SI 1983/1553 for the definition of what is required. Suffice to say none of the terms are present in the document

 

Since this document does not contain the required prescribed terms it is rendered unenforceable by s127 (3) consumer Credit Act 1974, which states

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This situation is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

In addition should you continue to pursue me for this debt you will be in breach of the OFT guidelines, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on debt collection

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I refer to page 5 of the guidance which states;

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment.

 

I require you to produce a compliant copy of my credit agreement to confirm I am liable to you or any organisation, which you represent for this alleged debt, if you cannot do so I require written clarification that this is the case. Should you ignore this request I will report you to the Office of Fair Trading to consider your suitability to hold a credit licence in addition to a complaint to Trading Standards, as you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40

 

Since the agreement is unenforceable and the default notice is non compliant, it would be in everyone’s interest to consider the matter closed and for your client to write the debt off. I suggest you give serious consideration to this as any attempt of litigation will be vigorously defended and I will counter claim for all quantifiable damages

 

I respectfully request a response to this letter in 14 days

 

 

I trust this out lines the situation

Print name do not sign


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Thanks I have all ready sent them that letter which was\received by recorded delivery on the 5th August 09.

 

I have put in complaints regarding missold ppi and credit charges which would more than wipe this debit out, but just wanted to preempt the reply I may get from LLoyds has have not heard anything since they received the letter on the 5th Aug 09.

 

 

I know its early days, but just wondered if anyone knew what Lloyds Tsb might do?

 

Thanks again

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notice account from 2001 when did you last make a payment?

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Last month thanks.

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Hi, I would be very grateful for any advice. Despite sending account in action and being received by LLoyds at headoffice and card services dept I am being harrassed by telephone and by mail. They have threatned me with default action dated the 11th aug 09. They have started to refund cc charges but not all.

 

I am not sure what to do any advice greatly appreciated.

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Send them this;

 

 

Account In Dispute

 

Ref:

 

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

 

 

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

On **DATE** I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. A copy of which is enclosed for your perusal and ease of reference.

 

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on **DATE**.(12+2 days after you sent the CCA request)

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore;

 

You are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation. This limit has expired

 

As you are no doubt aware section 77(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

As you have Failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested, any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS. Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect. This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data. It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends. Should you not respond within 21 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit. You have 21 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint. I therefore request a copy of your official complaints procedure which you are obliged to supply.

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

Print name do not sign


Anthrax alert at debt collectors caused by box of doughnuts

 

Make sure you do not post anything which identifies you. Although we can remove certain things from the site unless it's done in a timely manner everything you post will appear in Google cache & we do not have any control over that.

 

Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit

 

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Thanks again cerberusalert

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Hi all

 

I received an acknowledgement that LTSB have received my complaint for the cca on sat dated the 10th August 09. It was the 11th August that the action threatening default action started. Have had harrassment for this account continued over the weekend. Phoned LTSB Dispute legal team today they informed me that THEY CAN STILL PURUSE ME FOR PAYMENT, PHONE, SEND LETTERS as a judge ruled in favour that they do not need to wipe out the outstanding balance.

 

I told LTSB that I had missold ppi ( this actually falls under multiple agreements) and charges that would more than wipe out this outstanding balance. They said OFT would agree with them.

 

What should I do they said they will reply by the end of the 8 weeks. This could get quite serious though.

 

Thanks again

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Dont ever speak on the telephone. All creditors will lie through their back teeth to get the cash out of you. How do they knoe the OFT will agree with them, no-one else ever seems to know what they think!

 

They can ask for the debt, but as the agreement appears unenforceable they cannot go to court with it (or legally cant), the requests have to be reasonable. Put in writing (send recorded del) that you will only communicate in writing and not to contact you by telephone, also state thet you do not agree to them visiting you at home (you have to agree to a home visit despite what they may say).

 

They will lie, bully and intimidate you to get the money, dont forget the collections dept are on commission on what they recover. Have a good read on here at lots of posts and you will soon realise what they can and cant do. I have paid nothing towards 25k of debt since Dec 08 thanks to CAG and its members, 5k just written off, 4k no reply from DCA(unenforcable), 3k no reply from DCA (unenforcable) and 2 with Cabot totalling 13k currently unenforcable.

 

Sit back, relax and see how much fun you can actually have with creditors who 1, cant get the legal stuff right 2, employ low intelligence monkeys ;)


Advice & opinions given by spartathisis are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.:)

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Hi, thanks Spartathisis your comments are thought provoking, will stick with it!! I have reported them myself to OFT, IFC and FOS regarding this matter now.

 

Will send a letter highlighting the above.

 

Thanks again

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Finally LTSB have acknowledged my letter stating they will now investigate my complaint, although this may take sometime due to the huge volume of similar requests- they have refuned all unlawful charges including £12 ones, although rejected ppi.

 

I phoned up the ppi team on wednesday am was informed I would receive a holding letter on 26th aug as they needed more time to investigate and were waiting for information on agreement. Received the rejection letter today dated Wednesday!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They state that I would have received information regarding ppi- never received even DSAR dept didnt have any to send. In same rejection letter they enclose policy information that I have been after for months!!!!! Having read information I would never have been eligible as I was a University Student at the time and they know that because I had a student account with LTSB with student loans going into them!!

 

Any suggestions on what to do next greatly appreciated.

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Finally LTSB have acknowledged my letter stating they will now investigate my complaint, although this may take sometime due to the huge volume of similar requests- they have refuned all unlawful charges including £12 ones, although rejected ppi.

 

I phoned up the ppi team on wednesday am was informed I would receive a holding letter on 26th aug as they needed more time to investigate and were waiting for information on agreement. Received the rejection letter today dated Wednesday!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They state that I would have received information regarding ppi- never received even DSAR dept didnt have any to send. In same rejection letter they enclose policy information that I have been after for months!!!!! Having read information I would never have been eligible as I was a University Student at the time and they know that because I had a student account with LTSB with student loans going into them!!

 

Any suggestions on what to do next greatly appreciated.

 

Hmm it sounds like either a LBA to LTSB about the mis-sold PPI and the threat of court action or a complaint to FOS.

 

S.


Are You as Anonymous on CAG as You Think You Are? *Link*

 

The CAG is a free help site,should you be offered help that requires payment,please report it to site team.

 

Deal with your debts:

STEP ONE - Dont Panic! | STEP TWO - Priority & Non Priority Debts | STEP THREE - Personal Budget Sheet | STEP FOUR - A SAFE bank Account | STEP FIVE - Dealing with Priority Debts | STEP SIX - Non-priority Debts | STEP SEVEN - Non-Priority Debt-Repayment Opt1 | STEP EIGHT - Non-Priority Debt-Repayment Opt2 | STEP NINE - Perils of Consolidation | STEP TEN - RE-Evaluate Frequently

 

***** SERIOUSLY IN DEBT, DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO, TRY NationalDebtLine's MoneySteps *****

 

 

IMPORTANT: Please take my advice in the spirit it is given and on the basis that I am expressing my opinion, These opinions are not endorsed by CAG in anyway and are offered informally without prejudice or warranty of any kind. These opinions are solely based upon the knowledge I've gained from this fantastic site and life in general. I have NO legal training.

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Thanks for the advice the shawdow. I will send this LBA tomorrow. However, I am still receiving calls from LTSB sometimes two within 5 minutes of each other- this account is in dispute. If they refunded the ppi, the account would be moreless wiped out with £200 outstanding. Any advice on what to do about this harrassment?

 

Thanks in advance

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Thanks for the advice the shawdow. I will send this LBA tomorrow. However, I am still receiving calls from LTSB sometimes two within 5 minutes of each other- this account is in dispute. If they refunded the ppi, the account would be moreless wiped out with £200 outstanding. Any advice on what to do about this harrassment?

 

Thanks in advance

 

If you have sent them the telephone harassement letter from the dca templates library then I'm afraid the only options are either to ignore/unplug the phone/buy a truecall device OR court once you have your pattern of harassment established on paper.

 

S.


Are You as Anonymous on CAG as You Think You Are? *Link*

 

The CAG is a free help site,should you be offered help that requires payment,please report it to site team.

 

Deal with your debts:

STEP ONE - Dont Panic! | STEP TWO - Priority & Non Priority Debts | STEP THREE - Personal Budget Sheet | STEP FOUR - A SAFE bank Account | STEP FIVE - Dealing with Priority Debts | STEP SIX - Non-priority Debts | STEP SEVEN - Non-Priority Debt-Repayment Opt1 | STEP EIGHT - Non-Priority Debt-Repayment Opt2 | STEP NINE - Perils of Consolidation | STEP TEN - RE-Evaluate Frequently

 

***** SERIOUSLY IN DEBT, DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO, TRY NationalDebtLine's MoneySteps *****

 

 

IMPORTANT: Please take my advice in the spirit it is given and on the basis that I am expressing my opinion, These opinions are not endorsed by CAG in anyway and are offered informally without prejudice or warranty of any kind. These opinions are solely based upon the knowledge I've gained from this fantastic site and life in general. I have NO legal training.

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AN UPDATE

 

I have received from LTSB today,

'a copy of my current terms and conditions in my marriage name and no signature at the bottom. I asked for a copy of the terms and conditions that I signed up for in my maiden name. They state in this letter today that they have sent a signed statement of my account- but theres no signed statement at all!!

 

'' In the letter they assert the follow: There is no requirement under the cca to provide you with a copy of the original signed agreement. We are endeavouring to locate the copy of your signed agreement but we would not have opened up opened up without a copy of the signed agreement'

 

 

LTSB state that they have satisfied the cca section 78 request name and if I pursued this, it would be against warnings from the ministry of justice. The agreement is enforceable.

 

 

Any suggestions on what to do next as they were able to send out the above application form dated for 2002 but no t/c? Additionally, if they refunded the miss sold ppi they would be no balance!!

 

Thanks in advance

Edited by angel17

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AN UPDATE

 

I have received from LTSB today,

'a copy of my current terms and conditions in my marriage name and no signature at the bottom. I asked for a copy of the terms and conditions that I signed up for in my maiden name. They state in this letter today that they have sent a signed statement of my account- but theres no signed statement at all!!

 

'' In the letter they assert the follow: There is no requirement under the cca to provide you with a copy of the original signed agreement. We are endeavouring to locate the copy of your signed agreement but we would not have opened up opened up without a copy of the signed agreement'

 

 

LTSB state that they have satisfied the cca section 78 request name and if I pursued this, it would be against warnings from the ministry of justice. The agreement is enforceable.

 

 

Any suggestions on what to do next as they were able to send out the above application form dated for 2002 but no t/c? Additionally, if they refunded the miss sold ppi they would be no balance!!

 

Thanks in advance

They will send anything to wriggle out of supplying an agreement.

 

Their assertion that they do not have to supply a copy of the agreement, is their view only.

 

If they do not have the agreement, how can they say it is enforcable. They are just panicing at the level of problem agreements that they are having to deal with.

 

xxxxxx 2009.

Dear xxxxxxxxx,

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

Re account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I write regarding recent communication regarding the above account.

Further to my request under the above act, your attention is drawn to the fact that this account is now subject to a serious dispute. On xxxxxxxx, by recorded delivery, I requested that you supply me a copy of the executed credit agreement covering this account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78, a copy of this request is enclosed. To date you have failed to comply with my request. Without production of the said agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to you, nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I have to date only received terms and conditions from yourselves.

Contrary to your assertion, xxxxxxxx have not complied with the terms of CCA 1974 s78. The documents that you have supplied, do not comply with your duties to supply a “True Copy” of any agreement you claim to have been signed by me.

In a recent letter from the enforcement department of the OFT, the text below was quoted, explaining what is required.

“The copy of the executed agreement need not be an exact copy but it must be a ‘true copy’ and not some reconstruction of what the original might have been and it must contain the same terms as the original. Where the terms have been varied as provided for within the agreement, the copy of the original agreement must be accompanied by a document setting out the current terms, as varied. Certain details may be omitted from the original agreement eg the signature but the debtor must be in no doubt as to the true nature of his obligations under the loan.

 

Should no original agreement be in existence it is very hard to say that the copy the creditor offers to the debtor is, in fact, a true copy as there would be no original with which to compare it. In our view the onus of proof would be on the creditor to show that the copy is a true one and where none existed he may have difficulty discharging this. Neither should creditors suggest that a consumer has signed a credit agreement where they are unable to provide evidence to support this — to do so is likely to be a misleading action under Regulation 5 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (the CPRs) and would also constitute an unfair or improper business practice.”

 

I also refer you to the information below.

1. A valid credit agreement must contain certain terms within the signature document (s.60(1)(2) CCA 1974). These core terms are the credit limit, repayment terms and the rate of interest (SI 1983/1553 (6 Signing of agreement) which states that the prescribed terms must be within the signature document. (Column 2 schedule 6). s.61(1)(a) states the agreement must contain all the prescribed terms and be signed by both the debtor and on behalf of the creditor.

 

 

2. Further, s.127(3) CCA 1974 makes the account unenforceable if it is not in the proper form and content or improperly executed.

 

In Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd (2007) it was stated “In my judgment the objective of Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties … and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under s.61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of section 127(3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself: they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest mis-stated. As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them. On the other hand, they are basic provisions, and the only question for the court is whether they are, on a true construction, included in the agreement”.

 

2. The need for prescribed terms to be contained in the credit agreement is confirmed by the Author of the CCA1974 act, I quote ““As the draftsman of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 I would like to thank Dr Richard Lawson for his interesting and well-argued article (30 August 2003) on Wilson v First County Trust Ltd [2003] UKHL 40, [2003] 4 All ER 97.

 

Dr Lawson may be interested to know that I included the provision in question (section 127(3)) entirely on my own initiative. It seemed right to me that if the creditor company couldn’t be bothered to ensure that all the prescribed particulars were accurately included in the credit agreement it deserved to find it unenforceable, and that the court should not have power to relieve it from this penalty. Nobody queried this, and it went through Parliament without debate. I’m glad the House of Lords has now vindicated my reasoning and confirmed that nobody’s human rights were infringed.” - 167 Justice of the Peace (2003) 773.”

I am now granting to you a further 7 days to produce a copy of an executable agreement. After that I will consider that the above matter is closed and that you will no longer pursue the alleged debt. If you are insisting that the non enforceable document, that you have supplied, is the only alleged agreement in your possession, then I would suggest that the best course of action would be to immediately set the balance of the above account number to zero.

I look forward to your response.

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From Steven4064

 

If an agreement is not properly executed it can only be enforced by court order (s65 of the CCA 1974). A court is not allowd to enforce such an agreement under certain circumstances:

 

1. It doesn't have the debtors signature and the prescribed terms in the same document (s127(3))

 

2. If it is a cancellable agreement and the requirements about cancellation rights have not been complied with (s127(4))

__________________

Steven

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Thank you Vint 1954! This complaint was taken to the FOS when they started threatening defaults. They issued over £900s worth of charges so far. I will quote FOS complaint no in letter too. Should I include refund off ppi?

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Thanks didnt see this before shall I quote the following towards end of letter?

If an agreement is not properly executed it can only be enforced by court order (s65 of the CCA 1974). A court is not allowd to enforce such an agreement under certain circumstances:

 

1. It doesn't have the debtors signature and the prescribed terms in the same document (s127(3))

 

2. If it is a cancellable agreement and the requirements about cancellation rights have not been complied with (s127(4))

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