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stleonards

Howard Cohen/ CL Finance Limited vs me

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Hi,

 

I received a claim form from the Northampton CCBC five days ago and went online to acknowledge receipt.

 

A copy of the poc is here

http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu180/stleonards_2009/howardcohenpoc.jpg

 

I immediately sent a CPR request by Special Delivery and received a letter back today from Howard Cohen basically telling me that they won't give me any of the documents I asked for.

 

a copy of the letter is here

http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu180/stleonards_2009/howardcohen1.jpg

 

Does anyone have an idea of what I can do now? Thank you.

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Hi,

 

 

I immediately sent a CPR request by Special Delivery and received a letter back today from Howard Cohen basically telling me that they won't give me any of the documents I asked for.

 

 

Does anyone have an idea of what I can do now? Thank you.

 

This is standard fare for Howard Cohen. Seeing as they sue via moneyclaim they don't even have to attach a copy of your agreement. And they won't give you a bean in documentation unless ordered by the court, (which you will have to ask for as part of your defence). This is how they operate, sadly.

 

You've acknowledged so you have 28 days from service of the claim to defend. I'd take it that you won't receive any further documentation and draft an 'embarassed' defence, with leave to amend it at a later stage.

 

There's lots of good examples of this sort of defence on here, look around and see what applies to you.

 

When you've done it, post it up and others will advise on changes.

 

Cheers, BAE

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a copy of the letter is here

http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu180/stleonards_2009/howardcohen1.jpg

 

Does anyone have an idea of what I can do now? Thank you.

 

Hi

 

I'm no expert on this but HC have been a little presumptuous in their letter stating that the claim will be dealt with by the 'small claims' track.

 

Until the AQ stage has been reached, how the hell do they know that?

 

Just because it's under £5000 it isn't automatically assigned to SC, e.g. it could be that it is complex (I'm not saying it is!) and gets assigned to fast track.

 

If you haven't already done so, it might be worth reading this thread by surfaceagentx20 ;

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/159445-getting-them-reveal-their.html

 

especially considering they have mentioned certain documents in their PoC.

 

Cheers

Rob

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This is a basic defence that I have used several times, (written by a former cagger).

 

You will have to amend it to suit your circumstances. For example, if there are charges on the account, that gives you an opportunity to make a counterclaim, (part 20) - but obviously you can only do this if the claimant sends you the required statements!

 

If HC do not produce the required documents at the disclosure stage (this is prior to the main court hearing when both sides have to swap all documents they will be using in court) you can apply for an order (N244) which compels them to do this. In default their claim will be struck out.

*Delete the red parts if not applicable*

 

 

Defence

 

1. The particulars of claim are vague and do not provide sufficient detail to enable the defendant to plead effectivley or at all. By way of example the claimant has failed to confirm the date of agreement upon which the cause of action is based.

 

2. shortly after the issue of the action the claimant was requested to disclose documents relating to the alleged debt and/or agreement. The claimant refused my request on xxxxxxxx.

 

3. The documents described above were the subject of a Part 18 request I have also previously requested a copy of a Credit agreement under the terms of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, on the xxxxxx. The claimant has also failed to produce this document.

 

4. In all the circumstances the defendant denies being indebted to the claimant as alleged or at all.

 

Part 20 Claim

 

5. The defendant/Part 20 claimant intends to claim sums paid to the claimant /Part 20 defendant in relation to late payment and overlimit charges.

 

6.The defendant/Part 20 claimant refers to paragraphs 2 and 3 above. As a consequence of the claimants/Part 20 defendants refusal to provide documents, the defendant/Part 20 claimant is unable to plead the Part 20 claim with particularity.

 

And the defendant/Part 20 claimant claims:-

i) An order requiring the claimant/Part 20 defendant to disclose statements of account covering the entire period of the alleged agreement and a copy of the alleged agreement.

 

ii) Damages limited to £5,000.00

 

iii) Interest pursuant to Section 64 of the County Courts act 1984 at the rate of 8% per annum until judgment or further order or such other sum as the court thinks fit.

 

Dated this day of xxxxx 2009

 

 

Statement of Truth

I confirm the contents of this defence/Part 20 claim are true.

 

......................... ......................... ...

defendant/part 20 claimant

 

To the court

 

And to the claimant/part 20 defendant

 

It is good enough to get you to disclosure.

 

BAE :)

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Thank you very much :) I just have to spend a while studying that and understanding it.

 

Thanks again.

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Hi

 

If you haven't already done so, it might be worth reading this thread by surfaceagentx20 ;

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/159445-getting-them-reveal-their.html

 

especially considering they have mentioned certain documents in their PoC.

 

Cheers

Rob

 

Thank you, I have read that thread about nine times and I always end up feeling very confused :( I think it is a bit too in depth for me.

 

Thanks again.

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Hi Stleonards

 

How much is the claim (ball park figure?)

Are there any unfair charges involved?

If not,think very carefully before submitting a Part 20 counter claim at this stage.

 

Regards

 

Andy


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Hi andyorch,

 

Slightly over £1000 with the solicitors fees and court charge. I wasn't going to leave the Part 20 bits in (I didn't really understand them)

 

I don't even know who the company in the POC are? it says Santander but I do not have any paperwork from them and I keep everything forever.

 

Thanks for your help.

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Santander took over Abby Nat /Allience Leicester so any cards with the aforementioned will now come under their control.

Is this account in dispute? a little more background as to why litigation as been commenced would be helpful.

 

Regards

 

Andy


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Ok, I think I have unravelled the confusion.

 

The card was a Debenhams store card, it was issued by GE Money, I sent them a CCA request in February 2009, they responded with a letter requesting my signature and I replied with a letter from this site explaining why they did not need it.

 

I heard nothing back from them.

 

Somewhere along the line it has become Santander. I am certain that I do not have any paperwork from them, just the two documents I have put online in this thread, but I am going through everthing now.

 

Thank you.

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Excellent so now you know what the summons equates to.Now the request that you made in Feb 2009 you realise they remain in default after 12+2 days until complience with your request and should not attempt litigation (I say shouldnt very loosely).

You need to now go through your papertrail and track the accounts movements NoAs (Notice of Assignment/ sold on) and statements if you have them for unfair charges etc.

Have you recieved a Default Notice or Formal Demand?

have you recieved any LBA from Solicitors threatening litigation.

Come back when you have unraveled this mess.Keep an eye on the time line re Summons AoS etc

 

Regards

 

Andy


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Hello Stleonards.

 

Andyorch has a good reputation on this site, so consider the input wisely.

 

From my own experience with H/C they don't provide documents and you will end up having to file a holding defence and then ask for additional directions when it comes to the AQ stage.

 

Expect this to drag on a bit, my next Court date will be in October now for a claim issued in January, but have a read around the threads on the forums and ask questions as and when you need them.

 

Regards


-

PLEASE NOTE - I am not a legal expert, my comments are based on information learnt or

obtained and from my own experiences.

-

Case 1 - C L Finance - Court Case 'Stayed' :-). Stay Lifted - N149 AQ Received & Filed. Case Struck Out :grin:

-

Case 2 - C L Finance - Defence Filed. N150 AQ Received & Filed. Case 'Settled by Consent' :)

-

Case 3 - EOS Solutions - No Agreement - Account Closed ~£3500. :grin:

-

Advice & opinions offered freely but informally, without prejudice & without liability.

Use your own judgment and seek advice from a qualified and insured professional if you have any doubts.

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Thank you both. I am going through every piece of paperwork that has arrived this year, as I said I never throw anything away.

 

I will be back.

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Hello again,

 

I have sorted every document that has arrived this year and these are what I have in my posession:

 

A statement of account is here

http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu180/stleonards_2009/GEmoneystatement.jpg

 

And the Notice of Assignment is here

http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu180/stleonards_2009/NOA.jpg

 

Nothing else pertaining to this case apart from the documents I previously put up.

 

Sorry it took so long but I have now filed all paperwork for the last eight months.

 

No wonder I was confused, I didn't realise I was dealing with GE Money, CL Finance, Howard Cohen and Satander all about the same thing.

 

Thank you.

Edited by stleonards
Remove personal doc.

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Hello again,

 

I have sorted every document that has arrived this year and these are what I have in my posession:

 

A copy of the original application form with First Personal from 1996 is here

http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu180/stleonards_2009/applicationdebenhams.jpg Your own copy not supplied via your request in Feb 2009,it appears to have all the perscribed terms.

 

A statement of account is here

http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu180/stleonards_2009/GEmoneystatement.jpgI I presume this is the response to your Sec 78 request re Feb?

 

And the Notice of Assignment is here

http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu180/stleonards_2009/NOA.jpg yes from Cohen, nothing from Santander?

 

Nothing else pertaining to this case apart from the documents I previously put up. No default or Notice to Default then or LBA from Cohens?

 

Sorry it took so long but I have now filed all paperwork for the last eight months.Have you got the original statements (hardcopies) to verify any unfair charges,back to 1996?

 

No wonder I was confused, I didn't realise I was dealing with GE Money, CL Finance, Howard Cohen and Satander all about the same thing.

 

Thank you.

 

Regards

 

Andy


We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group The National Consumer Service

 

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A statement of account is here

http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/u...statement.jpgI I presume this is the response to your Sec 78 request re Feb?

 

Yes.

 

And the Notice of Assignment is here

http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/u...s_2009/NOA.jpg yes from Cohen, nothing from Santander?

 

Nothing at all from Santander.

 

Nothing else pertaining to this case apart from the documents I previously put up. No default or Notice to Default then or LBA from Cohens?

 

No LBA no Default Notice, nothing.

 

Sorry it took so long but I have now filed all paperwork for the last eight months.Have you got the original statements (hardcopies) to verify any unfair charges,back to 1996?

 

Maybe foolishly I shred all of those but I have done a SAR, will that produce them?

 

 

Thanks again.

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Hello Stleonards,

A SAR should produce all information they hold on you, however I suspect that you will not get a reply in time to file your initial defence.

I would sugest looking into a holding defence to start with as when you get to the AQ stage, you should be able to push for more information and ask for an amended defence to be submitted when the information is received.

What date does your defence need to be filed by?

 

Regards


-

PLEASE NOTE - I am not a legal expert, my comments are based on information learnt or

obtained and from my own experiences.

-

Case 1 - C L Finance - Court Case 'Stayed' :-). Stay Lifted - N149 AQ Received & Filed. Case Struck Out :grin:

-

Case 2 - C L Finance - Defence Filed. N150 AQ Received & Filed. Case 'Settled by Consent' :)

-

Case 3 - EOS Solutions - No Agreement - Account Closed ~£3500. :grin:

-

Advice & opinions offered freely but informally, without prejudice & without liability.

Use your own judgment and seek advice from a qualified and insured professional if you have any doubts.

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If I were you, I would not volunteer my copy of the credit agreement/application form.

 

Let them produce their own copy if they still have it.


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Hello Stleonards,

A SAR should produce all information they hold on you, however I suspect that you will not get a reply in time to file your initial defence.

I would sugest looking into a holding defence to start with as when you get to the AQ stage, you should be able to push for more information and ask for an amended defence to be submitted when the information is received.

What date does your defence need to be filed by?

 

Regards

 

It has to be filed by 4th September.

 

Thanks for your help.

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If I were you, I would not volunteer my copy of the credit agreement/application form.

 

Let them produce their own copy if they still have it.

 

I certainly won't be offering it to them :)

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My defence is due tomorrow, I am looking to file an embarrased defence, I have this that I used in another case:

 

I stleonards make this statement as my defence to the claim brought by CL Finance Limited

 

1.The claimants particulars of claim are vague and fail to disclose any cause of action, they appear to be an abuse of the process in that they fail to deal with the basic rules of pleading in accordance with the CPR

 

2.No documents supporting the claims in the particulars have been offered which the defendant needs to establish what agreement it is that this action is based upon

 

3.Without clarification of the claimants claim, the defendant is extremely disadvantaged and the claimants claim appears without merit

 

4.Further to above the defendant is unable to plead effectively or at all. The defendant is embarrassed.

 

I think this would this be OK to use, but is there anything I need to add?

 

Thank you.

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I would personally expand the defence a bit more to include reference to your letter and their reply to say they are not obliged to comply with it as it shows their behaviour to be unreasonable.

 

How does this compare to the defence in post #4?

 

Have a look through a few threads for other embarassed defences and see how they compare.

 

Regards


-

PLEASE NOTE - I am not a legal expert, my comments are based on information learnt or

obtained and from my own experiences.

-

Case 1 - C L Finance - Court Case 'Stayed' :-). Stay Lifted - N149 AQ Received & Filed. Case Struck Out :grin:

-

Case 2 - C L Finance - Defence Filed. N150 AQ Received & Filed. Case 'Settled by Consent' :)

-

Case 3 - EOS Solutions - No Agreement - Account Closed ~£3500. :grin:

-

Advice & opinions offered freely but informally, without prejudice & without liability.

Use your own judgment and seek advice from a qualified and insured professional if you have any doubts.

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Thanks very much, I am studying other embarassed defences and adding more to the defence now.

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Have you filed your defence ?


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