Towed from a suspended bay - without warning!

[gazawee]

Hi all, I really really need some advice.

 

I'd like to know how best to go about dealing with a situation that I believe is very very serious. The parking enforcement company that operate on behalf of my local council are operating in a manner can only be regarded as fraudulent and deceptive.

 

Over two weeks ago, I woke one morning to find that my car had been removed and the bays fenced off with signage to say that the bays were suspended. The suspension of the bays was the result of a request by the water board to conduct 'PLANNED' work (confirmed by the site foreman and the customer service agent at the water board) to replace old pipes.

 

I was puzzled because the morning before (which was also the day my car was removed and the day this suspension was said to have come into effect) the bays were free of any warning signs; this is certain because I walk past my car every morning on my way to the local station; in addition, various local witnesses later testified that no such signs were present the day before and in fact were only put up on the day when the suspension came into effect - which in my view doesn't constitute a warning.

 

When I explained to the parking shop, I was instructed to pay the £300 release fee (£200 tow charge, £60 PCN and £40 days storage) and then raise an appeal. When I asked them to first check their records to find out when the signage was put up they, came back saying that the information was not available.

 

1 week later I was fortunate to have caught an officer putting up the signs in preparation for works on a street around the corner. I asked him to confirm for me proper practice as to how much notice local residents could expect where 'PLANNED' work is to be conducted (another question the parking shop refused to answer conclusively) His reply was that it should be 7 days but in any case his job was to also note down any vehicles that were already present at the time of putting up signage. So that a record would be present in case those cars wanted to content the penalty. I asked him to check his records to which he found an entry against my vehicle confirming that A - my car was already parked before the suspension was enforced and B - that the warning signage was only place on the day that the suspension came into effect (also the day my car was towed away).

 

I asked why warning signs were only put up on the day to which he replied simply that I could appeal the charge and a refund should be made given that there is a record of my vehicle being there beforehand...he advise me to say that I was away the day that the suspension came into effect. He declined to give me his name and was unwilling to allow me to take a picture of the logged entry against my vehicle

 

The first thing that crossed my mind was how they could be allowed to operate in such a dishonest way and how they can expect to only have to pay back monies charged when in my case there were loss of earnings (I am an I.T contractor and charge by the day for days worked). It was a massive disruption and a very stressful experience for me, not only did I end up wasting my day chasing the council and the water board but so did my friend who came along to help.

 

I would like to know how the council can be brought to book and in addition to getting my refund, what the best way of going about making a claim for loss of earnings and being massively inconvenience by means of deceptive methods which continued well after having taken my vehicle; every attempt to get conclusive information on how much warning should be given or the exact date and time the signage was errected was blocked.

 

Would really appreciate any help - they should not be allowed to operate like this and simply refunding a person for the charges made does not constitute an acceptance and willingness to compensate for their deceptive behavior.

 

I local resident also said that he remembered seeing two parking attendants quarrel with an engineer over what to do about my car. This made me think that perhaps there was a misunderstanding between the water board and the parking authority over which bays were needed and when...it's possible that the engineers raised the issue to query why those bays had not been cleared and so that their work could continue, perhaps the parking authority rushed up the signage in order that my vehicle could be issued with a PCN and subsequently towed to clear the area.

 

 

I must add that my current plan is to first try to get my monies refunded and then either go to the police for fraud (obtaining money by deceptive methods) or my putting in a request with the parking shop for loss of earning..perhaps also going to the small claims court?

[green_and_mean]

I must add that my current plan is to first try to get my monies refunded and then either go to the police for fraud (obtaining money by deceptive methods) or my putting in a request with the parking shop for loss of earning..perhaps also going to the small claims court?

 

They are permitted by law to tow and fine you, if they have done so incorrectly you can appeal, it is not fraud.

 

How have you lost earnings as you stated you get the train?

 

It seems you have asked every Tom, Dick and Harry for their advice and annecdotal evidence all which has and will continue to get you nowhere. You should have been given paperwork to appeal the fees paid this needs to be completed urgently asking neighbours, workmen etc what happened will not get your money back. State that there was insufficient advance signage and if it was an emergency the vehicle should have been relocated not towed. While you are waiting for a reply make a freedom of information request for the work records that show when the signage was placed in situ and if any record of your vehicle was made.

[gazawee]

They are permitted by law to tow and fine you, if they have done so incorrectly you can appeal, it is not fraud.

 

How have you lost earnings as you stated you get the train?

 

It seems you have asked every Tom, Dick and Harry for their advice and annecdotal evidence all which has and will continue to get you nowhere. You should have been given paperwork to appeal the fees paid this needs to be completed urgently asking neighbours, workmen etc what happened will not get your money back. State that there was insufficient advance signage and if it was an emergency the vehicle should have been relocated not towed. While you are waiting for a reply make a freedom of information request for the work records that show when the signage was placed in situ and if any record of your vehicle was made.

 

 

"They are permitted by law to tow and fine you, if they have done so incorrectly you can appeal, it is not fraud".

It is fraud because they have obtained monies from me by deception - which is to 'falsey' accuse me of having committed a parking contravention

"How have you lost earnings as you stated you get the train?"

I did not at any point anywhere in my last post say that I took a train and just to clarify, there was a loss of earning because on the day I was expected to go to work, I instead had to take the day off to look into where my vehicle was, why it had been towed and to argue my case to get it back without having to pay their trumped up charges. I am a contractor which means I am only paid for days that I actually work.

"if it was an emergency the vehicle should have been relocated not towed".

As I said in my post, this was ‘planned’ work and NOT emergency work

"While you are waiting for a reply make a freedom of information request for the work records that show when the signage was placed in situ and if any record of your vehicle was made".

Again as I said in my previous post, I already know when the signage was put up because I have seen the log myself containing an entry against my vehicle.

Would be great if someone could please give me some advice after havign first read my post properly

[green_and_mean]

"They are permitted by law to tow and fine you, if they have done so incorrectly you can appeal, it is not fraud".

 

It is fraud because they have obtained monies from me by deception - which is to 'falsey' accuse me of having committed a parking contravention

 

"How have you lost earnings as you stated you get the train?"

 

I did not at any point anywhere in my last post say that I took a train and just to clarify, there was a loss of earning because on the day I was expected to go to work, I instead had to take the day off to look into where my vehicle was, why it had been towed and to argue my case to get it back without having to pay their trumped up charges. I am a contractor which means I am only paid for days that I actually work.

 

"if it was an emergency the vehicle should have been relocated not towed".

 

As I said in my post, this was ‘planned’ work and NOT emergency work

 

"While you are waiting for a reply make a freedom of information request for the work records that show when the signage was placed in situ and if any record of your vehicle was made".

 

Again as I said in my previous post, I already know when the signage was put up because I have seen the log myself containing an entry against my vehicle.

 

Would be great if someone could please give me some advice after havign first read my post properly

 

I did give you advice but obviously you know better.......so why bother asking?

 

BTW

'this is certain because I walk past my car every morning on my way to the local station' Does give the impression you get the train every day ....does it not?

[gazawee]

I did give you advice but obviously you know better.......so why bother asking?

 

BTW

'this is certain because I walk past my car every morning on my way to the local station' Does give the impression you get the train every day ....does it not?

 

 

1. Being a forum I ask because I expect that there are many well informed users that are keen to understand and help with the problems of others. I do not know best and that is why I am here.

“'this is certain because I walk past my car every morning on my way to the local station' Does give the impression you get the train every day ....does it not?

2. Yes I walk to my local train station which is also a local hub for buses; from there I NORMALLY take a bus to work - when I go to work'. As I explained numerous times before, on the day my vehicle was towed, I did not get to go to work because I had to resolve the issue of my car being towed. While I did also lose money for having to take a taxi to get to the car pound, my actual 'Loss of earnings' was/is tied to the fact that my employer did not pay me for the day I couldn't work!

I REALLY appreciate help but please read my post first before giving a sarcastic response

[Raykay]

The removal team and the pound would not know that your vehicle was parked there before the suspension, all they would have seen is a vehicle in a suspended bay and acted accordingly so it would not be fraud or deception on their part.

 

As you were advised, appeal to the council, if their records show that your vehicle was there before the signs were erected, you should be refunded.

 

The reason for the FOI request is that it seems from your first post that the council are very hesitant to give out the information about your vehicle or times of the suspension signs, you say you have seen it but have no record of it, an FOI request should get it in writing.

[gazawee]

Thank you Raykay for your reply.

“The removal team and the pound would not know that your vehicle was parked there before the suspension, all they would have seen is a vehicle in a suspended bay and acted accordingly so it would not be fraud or deception on their part.”

 

The pound, removal and signage teams all work for the same local contractor; why do you expect them not to be aware of the log made by those erecting the warning signs? When I did finally get to meet one of the team while out on the beat, he did inform me that upon returning to the pound, ‘normal’ practice is to transfer the vehicle log onto the parking system!

 

Would it not be an act of fraud to lift a vehicle to paint a yellow line beneath a car in order that it could then be removed and charged for?

 

I say it is deceptive because signs were erected after the suspension came into effect and after vehicles were already stationed there. They would not release my vehicle until monies had been paid and they would not verify my request to check their signage team’s vehicle log. Bare in mind that I came to collect my vehicle the following afternoon.

 

“As you were advised, appeal to the council, if their records show that your vehicle was there before the signs were erected, you should be refunded.”

What about loss of earnings and what about the fact that the councils contractors are acting inappropriately?

 

“The reason for the Freedom of Information Act request is that it seems from your first post that the council are very hesitant to give out the information about your vehicle or times of the suspension signs; you say you have seen it but have no record of it, an Freedom of Information Act request should get it in writing.”

Thank you I can see the sense in having the hard evidence so will request that too 

[JesperAudi]

I have to say Gazawee, you do seem very ungrateful for any advice you are given. I have posted elsewhere on this forum and and am very grateful for any time and effort from those that post in response.

 

A little humility and gratitude would get you further.

 

Nevertheless, I wish you good luck

 

Jesper

[Raykay]

The proceedure is to pay the fees and then appeal, if successful the fees will be refunded, removal teams and pounds are working for the council and it is the council which decide if the correct proceedure has not been followed and if the appeal is successful, which is why you didn't get any help from the contractors at the pound.

 

I think you may struggle for loss of earnings, especially if they consider that you 'opted' not to go work and that you could have gone to the pound and reclaimed your vehicle.

[gazawee]

I have to say Gazawee, you do seem very ungrateful for any advice you are given. I have posted elsewhere on this forum and and am very grateful for any time and effort from those that post in response.

 

A little humility and gratitude would get you further.

 

Nevertheless, I wish you good luck

 

Jesper

 

hello Jesper

 

Perhaps if you had received a condescending reply from a user that had clearly not even taken the time to read your issue first, you too would have felt aggrieved.

[gazawee]

The proceedure is to pay the fees and then appeal, if successful the fees will be refunded, removal teams and pounds are working for the council and it is the council which decide if the correct proceedure has not been followed and if the appeal is successful, which is why you didn't get any help from the contractors at the pound.

 

I think you may struggle for loss of earnings, especially if they consider that you 'opted' not to go work and that you could have gone to the pound and reclaimed your vehicle.

 

Thank you RayKay..but how could they ever consider it an 'option' no one else could have retrieved my vehicle for me and I couldn't both go to work and go to the pound at the same time?

[Raykay]

Sorry, I forgot to add 'after work, depending on the hours the pound is open'.

You may not have a problem getting the removal and PCN refunded, but anything else could be.

[Jamberson]

It does seem strange that they towed a vehicle if the signage wasn't up in advance, but in terms of claiming lost earnings, I think you're best off talking to a solicitor because you will have to initaiate some kind of legal action.

 

I'm sure you are aware that the council would likely contest such a claim and may reason as follows: If you found that you'd been towed when you got up then -

 

- half hour to ascertain you were towed away

- an hour to get to the pound

- an hour to drive back and park up

 

If you can argue it out and prove that you were unable to earn money that day, perhaps you have a case.

 

Meantime, I would complain through the council's official complaints procedure, which will compel a senior person to look into what happened and give you a substantive response. This would arm you with some useful info about what happened on the day.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Do not allow your understandable desire for revenge to cloud what you have to do as an appeal.

 

Your grounds for appeal are that there was a procedural impropriety.

 

I don't know what the technical difference is between a procedural impropriety and maladministration, but if and when you have a finding in your favour, your route is the council's complaints procedure for maladministration causing an injustice. Ultimately you can take this to the Local Government Ombudsman.

[gazawee]

It does seem strange that they towed a vehicle if the signage wasn't up in advance, but in terms of claiming lost earnings, I think you're best off talking to a solicitor because you will have to initaiate some kind of legal action.

 

I'm sure you are aware that the council would likely contest such a claim and may reason as follows: If you found that you'd been towed when you got up then -

 

- half hour to ascertain you were towed away

- an hour to get to the pound

- an hour to drive back and park up

 

If you can argue it out and prove that you were unable to earn money that day, perhaps you have a case.

 

Meantime, I would complain through the council's official complaints procedure, which will compel a senior person to look into what happened and give you a substantive response. This would arm you with some useful info about what happened on the day.

 

Thank you Jamberson, any ideas as to where I could find a solicitor that has had experience in dealing with such things?

[gazawee]

Do not allow your understandable desire for revenge to cloud what you have to do as an appeal.

 

Your grounds for appeal are that there was a procedural impropriety.

 

I don't know what the technical difference is between a procedural impropriety and maladministration, but if and when you have a finding in your favour, your route is the council's complaints procedure for maladministration causing an injustice. Ultimately you can take this to the Local Government Ombudsman.

 

Thank you Bernie_the_Bolt..

[green_and_mean]

"How have you lost earnings as you stated you get the train?"

 

I did not at any point anywhere in my last post say that I took a train and just to clarify, there was a loss of earning because on the day I was expected to go to work, I instead had to take the day off to look into where my vehicle was, why it had been towed and to argue my case to get it back without having to pay their trumped up charges. I am a contractor which means I am only paid for days that I actually work.

Towed from a suspended bay - without warning! - Penalty Charges Forum

 

My issue isn't that warnings signs weren't displayed at the time the PCN was issued (Time: 9:46am, Date 21/07/09) or by the time my car was towed (11:30am 21/07/09); I'm certain that the parking attendants only issued the PCN with the warning sign displayed which would mean the signage could only have gone up sometime between 8:40am and 9:46am - in other words after I had alread left for work and after the suspension was apparently due to be inforced.

 

Isn't claiming for a loss you didn't suffer FRAUD??

[gazawee]

Towed from a suspended bay - without warning! - Penalty Charges Forum

 

My issue isn't that warnings signs weren't displayed at the time the PCN was issued (Time: 9:46am, Date 21/07/09) or by the time my car was towed (11:30am 21/07/09); I'm certain that the parking attendants only issued the PCN with the warning sign displayed which would mean the signage could only have gone up sometime between 8:40am and 9:46am - in other words after I had alread left for work and after the suspension was apparently due to be inforced.

 

Isn't claiming for a loss you didn't suffer FRAUD??

 

I wish you were as clever as you thought; perhaps you could have contributed. Clearly no columbo....

 

Yes I did leave for work, but then when I saw that my car was missing 'while walking on my way towards the station' (suprise suprise - my resident parking bay is 30 yards down the street, which is the same route I take to get to my local station) I turned back around and set about trying to find out what the hell had happened to it..and yes..that meant that I ended up not being able to go into work!

 

LOSS OF EARNINGS - now please run along and find yourself something to do - detective work clearly isn't for you

[gazawee]

Just to clarify it in simple terms for you

 

I left for work but never arrived

 

Reason = because after I set out on my way to work, I noticed my car was missing!

[green_and_mean]

Just to clarify it in simple terms for you

 

I left for work but never arrived

 

Reason = because after I set out on my way to work, I noticed my car was missing!

 

The car was lifted around 11am so you could not have noticed it gone unless you left for work after 11am so stating the signs went up at 8.40-9.46am AFTER you went to work cannot be true.

[mkb]

This thread is going nowhere.

 

Can you post the PCN & release papers, both back and front so that someone might be able to advise?

[PGH7447]

I reckon this is a parking Troll trying to stop us helping real people with real parking problems, why else is it so antagonistic

 

Hi TROLL

[gazawee]

The car was lifted around 11am so you could not have noticed it gone unless you left for work after 11am so stating the signs went up at 8.40-9.46am AFTER you went to work cannot be true.

 

Like I said, you're no Columbo..do not jump to conclusions - EVER

I noticed it gone the day 'AFTER' it was towed..before you go making any more silly assumptions..let me explain>>

On the day I left for work..my car was parked up in the residents permit bay and no signs were displayed (in other words..my car was left legally parked in the residents permit bay)..after work I did not return home until midnight..(my car during which time had already been towed - got that?...still with me?) ok lets proceed...when I returned..I did not pass the bay my car had been parked in but instead from the other direction...and if the truth be told, I was so tired, crunched up in the back of my friends car, I wouldn't have noticed anyway.

 

That evening I went to bed assuming my car was still where I had seen it that same morning. Alas, it wasn't to be, and when I left the next day to go to work, only then did I notice my car missing..

 

To break it down further...I last saw my car legally parked at approximately 8:40am.....I didn't notice my car was gone till the following morning. The reason why I am able to say that the signage went up before 9:46 is because the PCN has a time stamp (but then again you should know that already)..in case you can't still see where I'm going with this..an assumption was made that by that time the signs must have been up or else they would not have issued the ticket.

 

LIKE I SAID...PLEASE RUN ALONG AND FIND YOURSELF SOMETHING ELSE TO DO...THIS REALLY IS GETTING BORING..I COME HERE FOR ADVICE FROM INTELLIGENT, KNOWLEDGEABLE AND HELPFUL PEOPLE.

 

This conversation is over - from this point forward I am through breaking things down for you and will instead ignore your ignorance..Please grown up and get a life..some of us have work to do!

[gazawee]

I reckon this is a parking Troll trying to stop us helping real people with real parking problems, why else is it so antagonistic

 

Hi TROLL

 

Thats rich coming from you....

 

Like your Bogus Green Friend..you too are going on ignore...

[green_and_mean]

You have done nothing but change a far from credible story from one day to the next, have provided no documents or photos and despite the 'event' happening last month made no mention of an appeal and on top of that been extremely rude so I will cheer you up and and discusss the matter no more.