What are they playing at ?

[Santa Maria]

As a follow up to one of my earlier threads on this subject , I contacted Ross and Roberts regarding fees that I disagreed with following advice given to me on this forum. Advice that turned out to be spot on !!. Very quickly , I had fees of £77.50 that R & R told me was for a first visit fee...£ 24.50..............levy fee....£ 41.00.............WP fee.....£12.00.

I queried this figure after been advised that the first visit fee should not have been applied as they managed to levy. I recieved a email on Friday from R & R saying that " The fees given previously were incorrect , and the fees that you have been charged , is as follows........levy fee £41.50.........WP £12.00..............SEC H £24.50 ".

What is this SEC H ??. Is it a coincedence that this so-called £24.50 SEC H fee , is exactly the same as the visit fee !!!!!!. Is it a case of what they can't get with one hand , they will try with another !!! I have read many many stories on this forum , and I don't think I have heard of this SEC H before. Any advice would be most welcome !!!!

[hallowitch]

posted by martin 3030

 

announcement from ACEO (Association of Civil enforcement officers )

 

Fees Charged under Head H - Council Tax Following criticisms regarding the charging of fees under Head H to Schedule 5 of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 this association sought legal opinion as to the legality of such charges.

This legal opinion unequivocally stated that the Fee under Head H of Schedule 5, 'where no sale takes place by reason of payment or tender' in accordance with section 45 (4) of the regulations, is perfectly legitimate and in accordance with the regulations. Furthermore, the fixed fee, currently £24.50, is recoverable regardless of the actual costs incurred.

ACEA fully endorses the right of its member companies to charge such a fee and strongly encourages the use of such incontestable statutory fees, where appropriate.

however legislation states if they are charging a levy fee and a walking possession fee they cant charge another fee on the day

schedule 5 section 45 (4)

(4) Where an authority has seized goods of the debtor in pursuance of the distress, but before sale of those goods the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount, the sale shall not be proceeded with and the goods shall be made available for collection by the debtor

Edited August 9, 2009 by hallowitch

[Santa Maria]

posted by martin 3030

 

announcement from ACEO (Association of Civil enforcement officers )

 

Fees Charged under Head H - Council Tax Following criticisms regarding the charging of fees under Head H to Schedule 5 of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 this association sought legal opinion as to the legality of such charges.

This legal opinion unequivocally stated that the Fee under Head H of Schedule 5, 'where no sale takes place by reason of payment or tender' in accordance with section 45 (4) of the regulations, is perfectly legitimate and in accordance with the regulations. Furthermore, the fixed fee, currently £24.50, is recoverable regardless of the actual costs incurred.

ACEA fully endorses the right of its member companies to charge such a fee and strongly encourages the use of such incontestable statutory fees, where appropriate.

 

however legislation states if they are charging a levy fee and a walking possession fee they cant charge another fee on the day

 

schedule 5 section 45 (4)

 

(4) Where an authority has seized goods of the debtor in pursuance of the distress, but before sale of those goods the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount, the sale shall not be proceeded with and the goods shall be made available for collection by the debtor

 

Thank you Hallowitch.

I do not wish to sound rude or unappreciative , but I did not understand anything in your reply !!!. Could you please tell me in laymans terms the gist of your post. When I read schedule this , and section that , my brain dies !!!. Mother nature was a tad mean when she dished out the comprehension bit !!!!!!

[hallowitch]

but I did not understand anything in your reply sorry about that Ive got a house full all looking for Sunday dinner was in a bit of a hurry

 

 

the association of civil enforcement say it is OK to make a charge under header H (not the government)

 

the council tax administration and enforcement regulations 1992

don't have a header fee H (well not the regulations we are allowed to see )

 

they are quoting schedule 5 section 45 (4) posted bellow

in my opinion section (4) is when the come to try remove the goods on the levy

pursuance dictionary definition ( the act of trying to achieve) .(had to look that up)

 

if i post it with (3) it may help

 

(3) If, before any goods are seized, the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount and the levy shall not be proceeded with

 

 

 

(4) Where an authority has seized goods of the debtor in pursuance of the distress, but before sale of those goods the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount, the sale shall not be proceeded with and the goods shall be made available for collection by the debtor

 

 

no matter what they call it legislation states if they are charging a levy fee and a walking possession fee they cant charge another fee on the day

Edited August 9, 2009 by hallowitch

[tomtubby]

but I did not understand anything in your reply sorry about that Ive got a house full all looking for Sunday dinner was in a bit of a hurry

 

 

the association of civil enforcement say it is OK to make a charge under header H (not the government)

 

the council tax administration and enforcement regulations 1992

don't have a header fee H (well not the regulations we are allowed to see )

 

they are quoting schedule 5 section 45 (4) posted bellow

in my opinion section (4) is when the come to try remove the goods on the levy

pursuance dictionary definition ( the act of trying to achieve) .(had to look that up)

 

if i post it with (3) it may help

 

(3) If, before any goods are seized, the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount and the levy shall not be proceeded with

 

 

 

(4) Where an authority has seized goods of the debtor in pursuance of the distress, but before sale of those goods the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount, the sale shall not be proceeded with and the goods shall be made available for collection by the debtor

 

 

no matter what they call it legislation states if they are charging a levy fee and a walking possession fee they cant charge another fee on the day

 

You need to ask this company to provide you with the statutory regulation that allows this fee to be charged. In addition you may wish to contact the locla authority to ask them to confirm whether they have agreed that their agents can charge this fee !!

 

It is simply not good enough for them to say that the Association of Civil Enforcement Agents thinks that it is OK to apply this fee. The ACEA represent BAILIFF COMPANIES !!!

 

ACEA have made this statement on the basis of opinion from a Barrister. HOWEVER....there were TWO legal opinions.(both of which I have read !!) .....and the second one CLEARLY confirms that a Head "H" fee CANNOT BE APPLIED. ACEA have ignored this one.

[Santa Maria]

Tomtubby and Hallowitch , thank you both very much for your replies. It is very appreciated. I will contact the LA to see if they have agreed to their agents charging this fee , and also contact R & R to provide me with the statutory regulation that allows this fee to be charged.

I will let you know what happens !!

[Santa Maria]

Well , after many days waiting I have recieved the following reply regarding HEAD H fees. I quote ,

" please note that although the administration fee in accordance with section h is added to the account on the date where the levy and wp take place , the fee is not paid untill the whole debt is paid to the council. Therefore the debt owed to the council is paid afterwards the administration fee in accordance with sec h fee is paid.

This fee is charged in accordance with the council tax (administration and enforcement )act regulations 1992 - regulations 45 ( as amended ).

With regards to the claims made regarding ACEA'S councels opinion , please note that I am unable to comment on their behalf , and as far as we are aware , there were 1 councels opinion and various different independant (not legal) opinions , I would recommend that you contact ACEA direct to request any further information you may require from them "

So in laymans terms , what does all this actualy mean ?. I have refused to pay any money that I consider to be to be unfair after following advice on this forum. I have also stated that should it be proven beyond any doubt that certain fees ARE applicable despite the good intentions of any advice given on this forum , then I would pay the fees. I am fully aware that advice given on this forum is just that.............advice .

Edited September 2, 2009 by Santa Maria

[Santa Maria]

I would be truly grateful if anyone could respond to this as I need to make quick decisions in order to make any progress !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I understand that there are far more urgent queries than mine , but if anyone could find a few minutes I would be very grateful

[pink_eeyore]

This is what they are quoting

 

Distress

45.—(1) Where a liability order has been made, the authority which applied for the order may levy the appropriate amount by distress and sale of the goods of the debtor against whom the order was made.

 

(2) The appropriate amount for the purposes of paragraph (1) is the aggregate of—

(a) an amount equal to any outstanding sum which is or forms part of the amount in respect of which the liability order was made, and

(b) a sum determined in accordance with Schedule 5 in respect of charges connected with the distress.

(3) If, before any goods are seized, the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount and the levy shall not be proceeded with.

 

(4) Where an authority has seized goods of the debtor in pursuance of the distress, but before sale of those goods the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount, the sale shall not be proceeded with and the goods shall be made available for collection by the debtor.

 

(5) The person levying distress on behalf of an authority shall carry with him the written authorisation of the authority, which he shall show to the debtor if so requested; and he shall hand to the debtor or leave at the premises where the distress is levied a copy of this regulation and Schedule 5 and a memorandum setting out the appropriate amount, and shall hand to the debtor a copy of any close or walking possession agreement entered into.

 

(6) A distress may be made anywhere in England and Wales.

 

(7) A distress shall not be deemed unlawful on account of any defect or want of form in the liability order, and no person making a distress shall be deemed a trespasser on that account; and no person making a distress shall be deemed a trespasser from the beginning on account of any subsequent irregularity in making the distress, but a person sustaining special damage by reason of the subsequent irregularity may recover full satisfaction for the special damage (and no more) by proceedings in trespass or otherwise.

 

(8) The provisions of this regulation shall not affect the operation of any enactment which protects goods of any class from distress.

 

(9) Nothing in the Distress (Costs) Act 1817[22], as extended by the Distress (Costs) Act 1827[23], (which makes provision as to the costs and expenses of the levying of certain distresses) shall apply to a distress under this regulation.

[pink_eeyore]

Appeals in connection with distress

46.—(1) A person aggrieved by the levy of, or an attempt to levy, a distress may appeal to a magistrates' court.

 

(2) The appeal shall be instituted by making complaint to a justice of the peace, and requesting the issue of a summons directed to the authority which levied or attempted to levy the distress to appear before the court to answer to the matter by which the person is aggrieved.

 

(3) If the court is satisfied that a levy was irregular, it may order the goods distrained to be discharged if they are in the possession of the authority; and it may by order award compensation in respect of any goods distrained and sold of an amount equal to the amount which, in the opinion of the court, would be awarded by way of special damages in respect of the goods if proceedings were brought in trespass or otherwise in connection with the irregularity under regulation 45(7).

 

(4) If the court is satisfied that an attempted levy was irregular, it may by order require the authority to desist from levying in the manner giving rise to the irregularity.

[tomtubby]

I would be truly grateful if anyone could respond to this as I need to make quick decisions in order to make any progress !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I understand that there are far more urgent queries than mine , but if anyone could find a few minutes I would be very grateful

 

The reply from R & R does NOT confirm they they are allowed to apply this charge. Have you written to the local authority to ask them if they have permitted their agents to charge this fee?

[Santa Maria]

The reply from R & R does NOT confirm they they are allowed to apply this charge. Have you written to the local authority to ask them if they have permitted their agents to charge this fee?

 

Thank you tomtubby. I have contacted the council twice regarding this, ( by email and phone ), and as yet had no response. The emails go unanswered , and the phone calls get passed from pillar to post with no answer at the end except the usual " we will get in touch with you ". Its almost as if they are asking each other , " did we say you can do this ?", and , " can we actualy charge this?" type of scenario !!!!

Hillarious in a " Carry on bailiff " kind of film , but certainly not in real life. Why oh why can't the powers that be answer simple questions?