unsigned contract.....

[lidgey40]

Hi, i'm hoping someone can help with an unsigned contract for a personnel loan. I took a loan out with the halifax several yrs ago which was done over the phone, i was never sent a contract or terms and conditions. The money was put into my account WITHOUT signing anything. Last year i fell behind with a couple of payments, i received a letter statting some charges were to be added to my account, i thought these charges were over the top so i called to dispute them, i was told by signing my contract i'd agreed to these charges, i explained i never signed a contract but they said i still have to pay. it taken me 7 months of letter writing and going to my local branch, but i was finally sent a copy of my contract, it is unsigned, i'm now in dispute with them over the charges, i've been told by a friend this is not legal and is cannot be enforced, where do i stand legally, they just keep sending my letters saying if i dont pay they will pass it in to a collection company who might take legal action, what shall i do??...thanks for any advice.

[sunflower99]

sounds like it is legally unenforceable if you never signed anything if it is an ordinary unsecured loan regulated by consumer credit Act 1974:D

[sunflower99]

you could send them a letter saying an unsigned contract not enforceable to show them you know your rights

[sunflower99]

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

Thank you for your recent letter sent to me, the contents of which are noted. I appreciate your quick response to my original letter. However, the reply received by me does not fulfill your requirements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

The Act demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter.

My request remains outstanding. An unsigned credit agreement with no personal details on it, like the one you sent in your reply, does not constitute a true copy of any credit agreement that may or may not have been signed by me on the opening of this account. A blank agreement neither confirms that I am liable for any alleged debt to you, nor gives me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’.[/font]

I still require you to send me a true copy of the original credit agreement that you allege exists. As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

You had until ??/??.2009 (12+2 working days after the request was made) to provide me with the true copy I requested. You are now in default of my request. Any account I hold with you is now in legal dispute. Whilst the account remains in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agency.

To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the customer to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. Any such attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office the time limits, which are laid down in the Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 are clear. You must supply an executed credit agreement within 12 + 2 working days of a proper CCA request. If you fail to comply with a legitimate request the account enters a default situation.

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the document I have requested. Whilst you remain in default of my request, you are not permitted to take any action against this account. This includes adding further charges and passing any information to the credit information industry I expect you to write to me confirming that the account has been closed and no further action will be taken.

I look forward to your reply.

 

Yours faithfully

[sunflower99]

I take it your unsigned contract was sent out in response to a cca request! under the consumer credit Act If you write to them and show you consider account in dispute it will show them you know your rights and leave a paper trail for if they attemp any further action, I take it the loan was for less than £25,000

[sunflower99]

Also best not to sign your letter! Just print name! When was loan taken out?

[sunflower99]

Only thing is that if it was an online application made after DEC 2004 the signature can be replaced by a tick in an online application form which may make it enforceable under the Consumer Credit (Electronic Communications ) order 2004 which allows the signature in the signature box to be reaplaced by a tick box.for agreemnets made online after Dec 2004 but if it done over phone sounds like it not an online application

Edited August 9, 2009 by sunflower99

[lidgey40]

Wow...thanks, you know your stuff.

I took the loan out in 2004 and it was over the phone not online, as they phoned me offering an overdraft on my current account and a credit card, like a fool i took all 3 not realising they were just selling me more stuff!.

I shall send them this letter and see how they respond. Thanks again for your help you've been a great help and I'll let you know what happens next, have a good week!..D.

[lidgey40]

Hi, today i've had a reply to my letter it reads;

 

......dear mr brown, you have asked for a copy of your credit agreement, at present we are unable to locate the original agreement. however our process has always been to obtain a signed agreement before granting any credit facility. as such, we believe that the agreement was validly executed and the agreement remains enforceable.

 

Foe clarification default under section 77 does not mean that you are relieved of your liability under the agreement to pay interests or any default sum, nor does section 77 prevent a default notice being issued. As a matter of law the absence of the copy agreement does not stop there being a valid agreement.You have signed the agreement, and in reliance the bank has advanced the loan to you. Under section 127{1} of the consumer credit act 1974 the court will allow the bank to enforce the agreement.

 

In such circumstances the bank may continue to collect the debt, but if a debtor defaults on the agreement, it may issue a default notice, report that default to a credit reference agency, commence legal peoceedings to obtain a money judgment, apply for an enforcement order, and seek enforcement of the judgment.

 

I have never signed the agreement this i'm 100% sure of, where do i go from here?. Thanks.

[sunflower99]

Hi Lidgey40

That great news it can not be legallly enforcrd in court:D if they ever silly enough try to take any legal action ask them to produce the agreement and they will be stumped:D They will probably send you some more threatograms and playt pass the parcel with your account but just write them a letter saying the debt is legally unenforceable as they can not produce agreement,Sorry i not been responding to your thread lately but i am being taken to court by Restons/MBNA in september so life vey hectic at moment,I would say send them a letter saying that and then ignore them !

[lidgey40]

thanks again for the help and advice and good luck in september.

[gearjamma]

Hi Lidgey40

That great news it can not be legallly enforcrd in court:D if they ever silly enough try to take any legal action ask them to produce the agreement and they will be stumped:D They will probably send you some more threatograms and playt pass the parcel with your account but just write them a letter saying the debt is legally unenforceable as they can not produce agreement,Sorry i not been responding to your thread lately but i am being taken to court by Restons/MBNA in september so life vey hectic at moment,I would say send them a letter saying that and then ignore them !

If this company takes you to court ,they will be asked to produce proof of a signed credit agreement,but as you have said they cannot do so then they will be accused of wasting the courts time,so saying ,it is very doubtfull that they will go that far as they know that the outcome will be in your favour.Tell them that any further calls or letters concerning this ALLEGED debt will be classed as harrasment,and you will report them to the office of fair trading.They could not comply with your request for a true signed copy within 12+2 working days,so therefore they have failed to comply with the law.

[sunflower99]

If this company takes you to court ,they will be asked to produce proof of a signed credit agreement,but as you have said they cannot do so then they will be accused of wasting the courts time,so saying ,it is very doubtfull that they will go that far as they know that the outcome will be in your favour.Tell them that any further calls or letters concerning this ALLEGED debt will be classed as harrasment,and you will report them to the office of fair trading.They could not comply with your request for a true signed copy within 12+2 working days,so therefore they have failed to comply with the law.

Hi gearjamma!

trouble is in my case they have got a signed application form on microfilch but they are implying it had got a reverse with prescribed terms on it;) Trouble is in the judge lottery some judges allow wrongly microfilch copies to be accepted which is terrible in the days of photo shop and under under cpr 16 para 7,3 they are supposed to bring in original but some biased judges wrongly allow these microfilch copies to be used iWe all know about photo shop and that theoretically documents can be altered , so if a alleged original microfilch is allowed it is a travesty of justice as no proof it is a exact replica and same layout as original alleged document .So when some pro bank judges allow them through it is wrong ,I know you can appeal if they do that and can be successful overuling ccj but it is all time and money and MBNA know us litigants in person (LIP) are at mercy of Judge lottery and have got very limted fiancial resorces to oppose them or afford legal representation,Thats why you are in a very fortunate position in that they can not find any document even on microfilch signed by you not even an signed application form so in your case they can not produce anything ,

Edited August 26, 2009 by sunflower99

[sunflower99]

one person had a lot of problems as he was facing a summary Judgement as Reston/MBNA have a nasty habbit of trying to stop a victim from having a proper trial and say they got no chance of winning They are doing this to me as well,This person CartierBresson only just managed to get the sumary judgent thrown out but he has to face another summary judgement again soon! but the judge was trying to get away with allowing a microfilch alleged agreement to go through but luckily the person managed to argue back and got the judge very relutcantly to back down and insist MBNA bring some proof in that MBNA microfilch copy is an exact replica of alleged original however Judge was definitly trying to let MBNA /Restons get away with it:mad: and i am facing the same bunch soon in september,It is awful often peoples lives and sanity are hinging on thses judges findings its ok for a biased judge just to casually let a microfilch copy through but it is not going to ruin his life or Restons solicitors/MBNA but to a victim it could mean their life ruined

Edited August 26, 2009 by sunflower99

[sunflower99]

If it were not for the wonderful peple on cag i would have been in total despair and before i discovered Cag i used to sit on this computer in utter despair very upset hopeing that something or someone would finish me off but now iv have got some hope and my faith in human nature being restored!

[gearjamma]

Dear sunflower 99,

Look at the very worst scenario,what can they really do ?.Firstly it it all goes belly up ,they look at your income and outgoings,work out what you have left, take off what you need for emergencies (if there is any left),then make a judgement on what yoy need to pay,nine times out of ten it will be a lot less than the original amount.It's not the end of the world,i used to sit and worry myself sick over debts,but once i realised that they can't shoot you or put you in jail things were a lot easier.This site is really,really useful for this type of problem,scan all the different forums and you will realise that you problems are not unsurmountable.

[sunflower99]

Hi Gearjamma

I am getting lots of help so hopefully i can give |Restons grief!and not have to fnd out what the judge will do if a ccj is awrded against me,so fingers crosssed!

[sunflower99]

Hi lidgey40

I started hijacking your thread! better letyour thread get back to your cca request! But wonderful news you not got any signed document ! so they would be very silly beggers to take you to court!

[sunflower99]

Thanks for moral support gearjamma:)

[jimjam1971]

I have a slightly different problem as the amount is extraordinarily high, does anyone know where i stand? here is my situation......

 

Hi. was called into my Nat West bank a short while ago for a 'meeting'. it transpires that they do not have any paperwork or indeed any info relating to a 70k loan i took out in Jan 08. I applied for a Mortgage so i could purchase a commercial property. the whole application was a complete farce and took 6 months to arrange. what has in fact happened is i was given a 'small business loan' instead. there is no paperwork relating to this loan at all.

 

Due to the incompetence of Nat West i decided to explore the 'Unenforceable loan' possibilites, and i duly sent of my £1 asking for a copy of my loan agreement. the first 12 days passed, and so did the next 2 months without hearing anything. i followed this up with the standard letter stating that if they could not find my agreement then i would not be paying back any monies that are not related to any agreement etc etc...

 

Today i recieved a letter saying ' as your loan facility was drawn down on 3rd Jan 2008 it is not covered by the changes to the CCA which came into being on the 6th April 2008' it goes on to say 'Accordingly the bank is looking to receive your written proposals for the repayment of the debt. we will defer taking any further action for a further 14 days from the date of this letter to give you a final opportunity to work with the bank however i must advise you that we have not agreed a suitable way forward by 3rd september then the bank will have no option but to commence default proceedings'

 

so to summarise

 

I have stopped paying

there is no loan agreement

there is no paperwork at all

 

Do i just bite the bullet and start paying again, even though there is no paperwork at all? or do i continue to expose their hap hazzard record keeping and let them take me to court?

 

Any advice would be welcome.